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  1. #101
    Evoker could have easily gotten 4 specs with 4 different roles

    Range and healer are already established

    Tank spec that would focus more on Black dragon like abilities

    A melee spec that could focus on Bronze/Black Dragon like abilities

    They have the mobility, they have the scales, claws tails, wings ,fangs etc etc, the fantasy of a dragon shredding their victims in melee while using breath and stuff is easily doable. But in Blizzards logic a bear with fur is more durable then a dragon with scales...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except that’s not what they said. They said that Deathwing took the essence of dragons and combined it with the adaptability of mortals. He magically combined qualities, not literal beings. No specific race was ever mentioned, and “mortal races” can mean anything from elves to murlocs.
    So let us examine the evidence. He conbined dragnes with mortals - , so they are clearly not oure dragons nor oure mortals, but both.

    They have a mortal form, like an alter ego it's more thana disguise and it has a fixed appearance, it cant be any mortal around.

    Visage form being humanoid can pass as a disguise but not if any race, because ni race looks like that.

    It is also possible that they will actually be capable of fully disguising themselves as any mortal race si liar to how dragons and powerful soe,l users can.

    You can equally and even more discernable conclude visage form is much more than a de
    Disguise. Just because you can somewhat disguise your scaly form, doesnt mean it is only a disguise. For if it was it clearly usnt a great one as it is unable to lose all of its draconian features.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except Wrathion very clearly tells the Dracthyr to use their visage form to disguise their true draconic form from the people of Stormwind so that the people will be more at ease around them.
    He is not saying visage form is just a disguise, just saying they should use their visage form instead of their dragon from...which makes sense seeing how mortals react to dragon kind.

    If you have two forms, with one similar to theirs, use it.

    Visage form is more than a disguise, and what Wrathion says does not contradict this

    What more subjective evidence do you need? You have
    .1. Dragon mixed with humanoid - effectively two so
    Species, makes sense to have a natural dragon and humanoid form - which is exactly what they give us
    2. It is not a full humanoid disguise either, too many draconuc features, meaning that ispt isnt just a disguise altho you can use it to disguise your dragon form, doesnt mean all it is is a disguise - cos if so it's a oiss poor one - as youd look exactly like a humanoid like all dragons too.



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, Alexstraza and Ysera have very clear horns on display in their visage form.
    1.. Those aren't visage forms, those are shapeshifts and the horns are optional, they dont have to disply them but they do, as you can see that some aspects do not, and most dragons dont. It's more a thing to make them stand out as aspects and sisters.
    2. Full dragons can take any form they want, the lore tells us this, they are not limited to the in game model humanoid forrm

    You can understand why Ysera and Alex use those forms, because we are familiar with them and recognisable, it's not to say they cant use others.

    Finally, I would assume dracthyr would be able to fully disguise as humanoids, and I dont mean visage forms, because of their draconian nature and power, like dragons can. However visage form is more special than that.

    I would hope that player dracthyr would be able to unlock a disguise, where they can fully disguise as a race. Maybe a racial quest and you get to choose which race and customise it once unlocked.

    This wont be visage for, but an out of combat ful, humanoid pkayable race disguise for players. Visage and dragon form are the only ones permissible in combat as they are the dual forms of the race and are unique too.

  3. #103
    At this point I'll just be happy if the other tanks have specs that are fun to play. The way they've done these dragons I'm not sure I could make myself make such a silly looking tank.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharli View Post
    well, I don't. because I do not want another class that "can tank" that nobody will tank on anyways.
    Do you know what -really- guarantees that another class won't have players tanking on it? Not having a tank specc to start with.

  5. #105
    Just give shamans a tank spec. Make it earth. Rebrand the three current shammy specs to rain, wind & fire.

    Druid and Shammy have 4.
    DH and Evoker each have 2
    Everyone else 3.
    Symmetry achieved.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Why? Cos mail users will finally have a tank class - and it's dragons man, surely they can tank
    I would want demon hunter to have ranged spec but it was scrapped. so no

  7. #107
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    So let us examine the evidence. He conbined dragnes with mortals - , so they are clearly not oure dragons nor oure mortals, but both.
    Again, he magically combined the essence of dragons and the adaptability of mortals. Those are qualities not literal beings. Further, based on the starting zone, Dracthyr's true form is the draconic form.

    They have a mortal form, like an alter ego it's more thana disguise and it has a fixed appearance, it cant be any mortal around.

    Visage form being humanoid can pass as a disguise but not if any race, because ni race looks like that.
    Again, no different than dragons such as Alexstraza, Kalecgos, Wrathion, or Ysera who very clearly have draconic features even in visage form.

    You can equally and even more discernable conclude visage form is much more than a de
    Disguise. Just because you can somewhat disguise your scaly form, doesnt mean it is only a disguise. For if it was it clearly usnt a great one as it is unable to lose all of its draconian features.
    Again, see other dragons, especially Alexstraza and Ysera.

    He is not saying visage form is just a disguise, just saying they should use their visage form instead of their dragon from...which makes sense seeing how mortals react to dragon kind.

    If you have two forms, with one similar to theirs, use it.

    Visage form is more than a disguise, and what Wrathion says does not contradict this
    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the fact that every dragon can perform visage form, and we have multiple examples of dragons taking visage forms with clear draconic features still being present. Frankly, this sounds like nothing more than headcanon on your part.

    What more subjective evidence do you need? You have
    .1. Dragon mixed with humanoid - effectively two so
    Species, makes sense to have a natural dragon and humanoid form - which is exactly what they give us
    2. It is not a full humanoid disguise either, too many draconuc features, meaning that ispt isnt just a disguise altho you can use it to disguise your dragon form, doesnt mean all it is is a disguise - cos if so it's a oiss poor one - as youd look exactly like a humanoid like all dragons too.
    Again, visage forms showing draconic features is not something unique to the Dracthyr.



    1.. Those aren't visage forms, those are shapeshifts and the horns are optional, they dont have to disply them but they do, as you can see that some aspects do not, and most dragons dont. It's more a thing to make them stand out as aspects and sisters.
    2. Full dragons can take any form they want, the lore tells us this, they are not limited to the in game model humanoid forrm
    Uh, they're literally called visage forms, and its something that dragons can do. Here is Ebyssian in the Dracthyr starter quests describing it to the Dracthyr;

    The people of this world have had... mixed relationships with dragonkind over the centuries. An appearance more familiar to them may help to smooth over this transitional period and make everyone more comfortable. As draconic creatures, the ability resides within you to adopt a visage form. We just have to unlock it.
    Here is Wrathion;

    You turned every head in Stormwind with your arrival, $p. No doubt some citizens were more... amenable to your presence than others. In order to better commune with other races, we dragons adopt a mortal visage, like the one you see before you. Not only does it put allies at ease, but it makes passing through doorways considerably less disruptive. Clearly the essence of dragonkind flows through the dracthyr. I suspect you may share our ability to assume a visage. Walk with me.
    There's no need to make up lore when the lore is quite clear.

  8. #108
    Bloodsail Admiral Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Fun fact.
    Even the other wingless Drakonids have visage forms.
    (Creed in cata is one example)

  9. #109
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Fun fact.
    Even the other wingless Drakonids have visage forms.
    (Creed in cata is one example)
    Any other examples?

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, he magically combined the essence of dragons and the adaptability of mortals. Those are qualities not literal beings. Further, based on the starting zone, Dracthyr's true form is the draconic form.
    That is subjective, it could be as you say, but it could be as I have framed it.

    Dracthyr are not oure or full dragons, exactly what is meant by essence fusing or how is so vague it could mean or be interpreted as anything.


    We know they have humanoid aspect to them , and the existence of visage form, I the way it comes out lends and supports that this is more than merely a disguise



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, no different than dragons such as Alexstraza, Kalecgos, Wrathion, or Ysera who very clearly have draconic features even in visage form.[
    1. Alex and all full dragons can take any mortal form full or with features - the lore tells us this.
    2. Wrathion, Kalec dont have obvious draconic features in their models.. nor did death wing, Nefarion or Onyxia, or Chromie and all the dragons in humanoid disguises we see around .



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, see other dragons, especially Alexstraza and Ysera.
    Invalid, they are the only ones showing drwconic features, and because the lore tells us they can disguise as any humanoid they want, we know showing those features for them is optional not some statement that verifies Dracthy visage form as purely disguise.

    As I said if visage form was meant to be a disguise for humanoids only, it isn't a good one. It appears more an alternate form. A full disguise would look identical to a playable race, which all full dragons can pull off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the fact that every dragon can perform visage form, and we have multiple examples of dragons taking visage forms with clear draconic features still being present. Frankly, this sounds like nothing more than headcanon on your part.
    1. Every dragon can disguise as humanoid, it's not officially called visage form, that term is used exclusively for Dracthyr. Lore doesnt say dragon kin, whelps and dragon related can do this altho
    2. I think it is likely Dracthyr can, or should be able to fully disguise. However their visage form is not a full disguise. It is somewhat a disguisem but could be viewed equally as an alternate form as they are dragonkin mixed with humanoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, visage forms showing draconic features is not something unique to the Dracthyr.
    So far only Alex and Ysera have been shown to have a huma oid form with draconic features. They at least are capable. We can assume all dragons can. We cannot assume Dracthyr, who are not full dragons, but a dragonling race I.e. mixed dragon and human have the full extensive capability of fullmdragons.

    Yet either way, the way visage form for Dracthry is set up given their lore itnis more than a disguise, and I feel they are capable of disguising fully as humanoid races, we have no confirmation..I think they should be, but this will be different to their native visage form which is fixed at character creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, they're literally called visage forms, and its something that dragons can do. Here is Ebyssian in the Dracthyr starter quests describing it to the Dracthyr;
    Isnt he describing it of the dracthyr, not necessarily calling all dragon forms visage. This is a nitpick though. The disguises are probably officially called visage forms for all dragons. I'm just pointing out that this is a new term used with the advent of this new race and could be Dracthyr only related. Prior to that, dragons in humanoid form were referred to as disguises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Here is Wrathion;


    There's no need to make up lore when the lore is quite clear.
    Evidently, they can adopt a visage, but we see from character creation, their visage form is fixed, unique or could be seen that way.

    It doesnt mean they can alter to different forms but their humanoid essence makes me think that visage form for Dracthyr that you can make is an alternate full form made possible by their draconic ability and humanoid essence.

    Their draconic ability could mean they can do a full disguise, and their humanoid essence might make this easier for them.

    However it is jot to say visage form isnt a dual form that can double up as a disguise somewhat, nor is it to say that in addition, they can fully disguise as any race.

    I am saying there is a difference between theirnvissge form and fully disguising.

    But I acknowledge this is a way of I interpreting the data. You could be fully correct and they arent a dual form race, with visage merely being a disguise..

    Thus I feel us less interesting. Dual form fits the set up more logically.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Fun fact.
    Even the other wingless Drakonids have visage forms.
    (Creed in cata is one example)
    I did not know that. So, it is likely all dragonkin can take on a visage form. But as Drwcthyr are the only ones made with humanoid DNA, it isnt u reasonable, and actually logical to assume there is more to theirs

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    We know they have humanoid aspect to them , and the existence of visage form, I the way it comes out lends and supports that this is more than merely a disguise
    The visage is less than a disguise since it is pretty terrible at hiding their true nature. Unlike true dragon's, so your argument would suggest Dracthyr are further away from mortals, not closer.

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That is subjective, it could be as you say, but it could be as I have framed it.
    Uh how? What mortal race did Deathwing supposedly merge dracthyr with? It’s simple, he didn’t. He took a general quality that all mortal races share.

    Dracthyr are not oure or full dragons, exactly what is meant by essence fusing or how is so vague it could mean or be interpreted as anything.
    Which is why their true form is draconic, and they are consistently called dragons in game right? They didn’t assume an elven/human form until they encountered humans and elves in Stormwind and/or Ogrimmar.


    We know they have humanoid aspect to them , and the existence of visage form, I the way it comes out lends and supports that this is more than merely a disguise
    Again, the visage form is something that all aspect-based dragons can perform, and once again, not all visage forms are designed to fool mortals. Wrathion for example has burning red eyes in visage form.



    1. Alex and all full dragons can take any mortal form full or with features - the lore tells us this.
    2. Wrathion, Kalec dont have obvious draconic features in their models.. nor did death wing, Nefarion or Onyxia, or Chromie and all the dragons in humanoid disguises we see around .
    Where does the lore say that the Dracthyr can’t do the same? Oh yeah, it doesn’t.

    You’re basing this entire argument on a gameplay convention. Blizzard gave the dracthyr visage form clear draconic features because they wanted the new race to be distinct from existing races. Your argument here is absolutely ridiculous.


    Invalid, they are the only ones showing drwconic features, and because the lore tells us they can disguise as any humanoid they want, we know showing those features for them is optional not some statement that verifies Dracthy visage form as purely disguise.
    Uh no. Yseras daughter also displays horns in visage form, and Wrathion walks around with his eyes ablaze. And once again, nowhere in the lore does it state that Dracthyr can’t take the forms of any mortal they want. You’re confusing lore with gameplay limits, since Blizzard could never make a playable class that can take the form of every mortal race.

    As I said if visage form was meant to be a disguise for humanoids only, it isn't a good one. It appears more an alternate form.
    This is a completely irrelevant opinion. The point is that Visage form is a common trait seen among dragons, and does not indicate some sort of biological mixture with mortal races.

  13. #113
    Tank spec for Evoker please

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh how? What mortal race did Deathwing supposedly merge dracthyr with? It’s simple, he didn’t. He took a general quality that all mortal races share.
    You don't know exactly what way blizz mean it or how/what he did. You are interpreting it that way to disprove what I am saying no more.

    I interpet it the way i have, because we have a visage form and that form is fixed and useable in combat. Dracthyr are not just dragons. They are dragons mixed with humanoid. Their visage form while a disguise, is also more than that, it's a fixed form.


    This is what we are seeing. Yes dragons may have visage forms for disguising, but iDracthyr have something else in them. They have a humanoid component.

    Loko, the way you interpret it, there is nothing more to them being part humanoid - and that is just not
    1. what the story shows
    2. what the character creation set up and gameplay show

    There is a reason I interpet it that way, it's because of waht I am told and shown. Not to disprove you. I stated something, you then went, "oh, it's not this it's that", and like you do in other times, you over argue wtih others like @Nightshade711 , @Ielenia , @Kyriani
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Which is why their true form is draconic, and they are consistently called dragons in game right? They didn’t assume an elven/human form until they encountered humans and elves in Stormwind and/or Ogrimmar.
    Pure and full dragons are exactly that - dragons like you see flying about as Dragons. Dracthyr, like Draconids and other sub are Dragon creations. They are draconic in nature but they are not full and pure dragons. THey are also referred to as dragons, but more often DRAGONKIN.

    Again, you are twisting and intentionally mis-interpreting what someone else is saying, just to prove you are right, rather than considering what they may be saying may actually be either correct or at the very least, an interesting way of looking at it that actually makes sense and could be true even if you suspsect it isn't or may prove to be later on or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, the visage form is something that all aspect-based dragons can perform, and once again, not all visage forms are designed to fool mortals. Wrathion for example has burning red eyes in visage form.
    But no aspect based dragon is made is combined with humanoids - Dracthyr can be interperted as part humanoid part dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where does the lore say that the Dracthyr can’t do the same? Oh yeah, it doesn’t.
    I did say I suspect the Dracthyr can do the same, and also seaid we should be able to show this is the case in game by Dracthyr able to choose to disguise as any humanoid race out of combat - this disguise I state d also IS NOT A VISAGE form, but like the worgen, you can custmoise whatever yorace you choose in whatver appearance and assume it out of combat.

    Also the lore doesn't explicitlytellus they can diguise fully as other humanoids - Idid say that they I suspect they can based on general info about them and dragons, and I'm pretty certain we shall see a dracthyr npc at some point take on aa humanoid disguise with no hint of dragon features.


    My point to you is that a disguise and the visage form on Dracthyr aren't exactly the same thing. It may be the same for full dragons - but full dragons are not part humanoid, and are moer powerful than dracthyr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You’re basing this entire argument on a gameplay convention. Blizzard gave the dracthyr visage form clear draconic features because they wanted the new race to be distinct from existing races. Your argument here is absolutely ridiculous.
    As said above, I am basing it on lore and gameplay - this is how you interpret, I could be ultimately wrong, who cares, but until I am proving too, this is how the game shows it to be. blizzard is the one that mkes everything in the game canon - gaming conevntions are canon unless otherwise stated.


    Again, you are twisting and intentionally mis-interpreting what someone else is saying, just to prove you are right, rather than considering what they may be saying may actually be either correct or at the very least, an interesting way of looking at it that actually makes sense and could be true even if you suspsect it isn't or may prove to be later on or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh no. Yseras daughter also displays horns in visage form, and Wrathion walks around with his eyes ablaze. And once again, nowhere in the lore does it state that Dracthyr can’t take the forms of any mortal they want. You’re confusing lore with gameplay limits, since Blizzard could never make a playable class that can take the form of every mortal race.
    And Nozdorumu, Krasus? Deathwing/Lord Prestor? Onyxia? Chromie? - could it be that Alex and Ysera and any full dragon merely choose to sometimes leave indications in the disguise/visage they choose to show mortals they are not actually that race but something more - and can remove them as they wish? Full dragons are not limited to only one humanoid apperance, they can alter and change at will. ALex, Maritrha, Wration eyes can remove those features if they wanted to, and can switch to another humanoid. THe lore tells us they can do, and often do when they want to visit mortal places.

    In fact only amongst the night elves there is some indication could dragons exist in their true form amongst a humanoid population if they wanted - however their true forms would be too big to fit iide places like the NAr'thalas acadmey or the streets of Nar'thalas or Suramar.



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    This is a completely irrelevant opinion. The point is that Visage form is a common trait seen among dragons, and does not indicate some sort of biological mixture with mortal races.
    Irrelevant opinion? Irrelevant to what? It isn't more relevant than anything said here and it was stated to show you that the visage form of Dratchtyr is not meant for disguise purposes purely - and for that point it is a very very relevant statement or opinion.

    if they wanted it to be only or purely a disguise, you won't have any scales, horns and tons of unique customisations on a unique humanoid model based off of the belf male and human female models which it isn't - cos the face while similar is unique.

    If visage form was supposed to be a disguise, you'd have had it without any draconic features. Very relevant comment I'm afraid.

    Again, you're just saying things to be right, you're not listening, you're arguing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SloidVoid View Post
    Tank spec for Evoker please
    /10 - yes

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    We've also never had a ranged/healer/tank class either...to use the same argument
    ehm... druid?
    we never had added such, true, but we do have that
    and yeah all added were mele/tank (+heal for monk) so heal/ranged is good
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-08-09 at 10:09 AM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ehm... druid?
    we never had added such, true, but we do have that
    and yeah all added were mele/tank (+heal for monk) so heal/ranged is good
    in context, meant of the new classes added.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    in context, meant of the new classes added.
    in context of added we got 4melee specs, 3 tank spec and 1 heal spec, so we might get few more classes before another tank

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in context of added we got 4melee specs, 3 tank spec and 1 heal spec, so we might get few more classes before another tank
    I was being tongue in cheek, facetious, silly response for a silly comment

  19. #119
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You don't know exactly what way blizz mean it or how/what he did. You are interpreting it that way to disprove what I am saying no more.
    Uh, we do know, because Blizzard never said that Deathwing took a mortal and fused it with a dragon. They literally say he combined the essence of a dragon and adaptability of a mortal.

    I interpet it the way i have, because we have a visage form and that form is fixed and useable in combat. Dracthyr are not just dragons. They are dragons mixed with humanoid. Their visage form while a disguise, is also more than that, it's a fixed form.
    The Dracthyr having a visage form doesn't help your argument at all, because we have dragons who do the exact same thing and they're not mixed with mortals.


    This is what we are seeing. Yes dragons may have visage forms for disguising, but iDracthyr have something else in them. They have a humanoid component.
    Again, nothing says that Dracthyr can't use their visage form to disguise themselves just like other dragons do.


    Pure and full dragons are exactly that - dragons like you see flying about as Dragons. Dracthyr, like Draconids and other sub are Dragon creations. They are draconic in nature but they are not full and pure dragons. THey are also referred to as dragons, but more often DRAGONKIN.
    Please show an example where Drakonoids and other sub creatures are ever referred to as "dragons".

    Again, you are twisting and intentionally mis-interpreting what someone else is saying, just to prove you are right, rather than considering what they may be saying may actually be either correct or at the very least, an interesting way of looking at it that actually makes sense and could be true even if you suspsect it isn't or may prove to be later on or not.
    Except you're not correct. Dragons have visage forms and Dracthyr have visage forms, and it has nothing to do with a humanoid/mortal mixture.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Dracthyr having a visage form doesn't help your argument at all,
    snip
    1. I see you see this as an argument and not a discussion
    2. I also notice you don't listen to what people say.


    Sometimes there is a right and wrong, but sometimes there is a point of view

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, nothing says that Dracthyr can't use their visage form to disguise themselves just like other dragons do.
    Except the visage form is clearly not like any race we know - so how can it be a disguise.

    There is nothing that says Dracthyr can't completely disguise themselves as another race.. but it's clear, the vsiage form does not belong to any race around and therefore is not meant purely as a disguise.. I mean how hard is it to understand. At this point you're just nnot conceding because you must be right, You view a thing this way and are convinced everyone else is wrong.

    Perhaps don't view it as a right or wrong thing, but a different way of looking at thingsthat might shed some insight or be onto something. Whether it ends up wrong or not.

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