Spotify allows 6500 employees to work from anywhere they want. Its turnover dropping.

[Rad1um]

The shocker of the century




Some employers have figured out their employees work better when they're given some autonomy.

BUT this could be me. I mean, maybe there are people here who love going to a location, so ill pass the poll off to you guys.

LMK what you think.




Link to Spotify HR announcement: https://hrblog.spotify.com/2021/02/1...from-anywhere/

Link to article: https://fortune.com/2022/08/02/spoti...d-remote-work/

[Endus]

It's really telling how many companies won't do this, and what it says about their toxic corporate culture. Pretty much every company that makes an effort like this finds out that productivity increases, and employee satisfaction increases, and they need less office space, and it's just win-win for everyone.

Except the ghoulish managers who need to lurk over everyone's shoulders because they only joy they get in life is micromanaging and abusing their staff.

Face-to-face meetings just aren't a requirement in the modern world. Zoom and such are as effective (more, in many cases, since you can have recordings for those who couldn't make it and digital documents so you're not wasting paper). If you can't trust your staff to do their jobs, your management teams are fucking godawful and don't know their asses from their elbows.

[Kaleredar]

If a company can feasibly allow work to be done from home, I really see no reason why they shouldn't have it as an option.


That employees might "underperform" or be "distracted" at home isn't really an issue in my mind... employees can underperform or be distracted at work, and you can discipline people as the need arises, just like one would if they were performing unsatisfactorily on-site.

And frankly, if you want to get really cynical, allowing working from home is hugely monetarily beneficial to employers as well. It means less investment in physical office infrastructure, and rent is a massive chunk of change any business has to pay to lease office spaces that could be vastly reduced.

[MCMLXXXII]

Well, it wouldn't work at my current job. We can't bring truckloads of lumber to our employees to let them produce export packaging from home. Because we are relatively small and have short lines of communication it wouldn't be ideal if I worked from home as the guys would call me every 5 minutes.

[Forogil]

It seems it is oversold in the story - the HR statement is that you and your manager together decide on the mix of home and office work. Note that 60% are still mostly at their office desk after a year, and most of the others split work between home and office, and even the still have (physical) get togethers twice a year or so.

What I find troubling is the picture in HR-statement of someone working with a laptop in their lap; that cannot be ergonomically correct - and that is part of the general problem that the laws and rules aren't updated regarding work from home: who makes sure that people have a good work-environment at home? Can you buy office equipment for your home?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It seems it is oversold in the story - the HR statement is that you and your manager together decide on the mix of home and office work.

Well, yeah. Not every single job is one that can be done remotely 100% of the time. Some people also like to come in to the office occasionally.

Note that 60% are still mostly at their office desk after a year, and most of the others split work between home and office, and even the still have (physical) get togethers twice a year or so.

Again, not that unusual. The point is they have the option to work from home at least some of the time.

What I find troubling is the picture in HR-statement of someone working with a laptop in their lap; that cannot be ergonomically correct - and that is part of the general problem that the laws and rules aren't updated regarding work from home: who makes sure that people have a good work-environment at home?

Oh yeah, I'm certain your concern is for the "good work-environment".

Can you buy office equipment for your home?

Quite often, yes. Also, the whole thing with laptops is that they are easily transportable...you can bring them home from the office and vice-versa.

[Forogil]

Oh yeah, I'm certain your concern is for the "good work-environment".

I do care about that. Both because I care about myself and others, and also because that's part of my job.

Quite often, yes. Also, the whole thing with laptops is that they are easily transportable...you can bring them home from the office and vice-versa.

The tax laws in different countries varies - having employees buying company desks and chairs for their home is often problematic; because it is so easy to misuse. It may be different (e.g., in the US) if you dedicate a room solely as home office, but that loses some of the benefits of working from home. Some countries (like Australia) allow part-time use of the home-office.

And then there are the tax issues when your home and work are in different states or countries.

A laptop in itself is somewhat transportable - but to work efficiently fulltime you need more than the laptop.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I do care about that. Both because I care about myself and others, and also because that's part of my job.

Well then, you will be happy to know that working from home is beneficial to health

A laptop in itself is somewhat transportable - but to work efficiently fulltime you need more than the laptop.

That very much depends on the job...which is something that I mentioned in my previous post. Some jobs don't require much more than a laptop and an internet connection for the person to do their job efficiently

[Forogil]

Well then, you will be happy to know that working from home is beneficial to health

Not unconditionally, and your lack of knowledge is tiring. In reality it very much depends; that's why people have often returned to the office - even if they can work from home.

One obvious benefit of having work separated from home is that it makes it easier to have a good work/life-balance; both that you can shut off work after the work-day and also that life doesn't distract you during work (especially if you have young children).

So it is a mixed bag - as most things; see e.g., https://www.acas.org.uk/flexibility-...uals-teams-and Note that the study also discussed other forms of flexibility than just location.

That very much depends on the job...which is something that I mentioned in my previous post. Some jobs don't require much more than a laptop and an internet connection for the person to do their job efficiently

Some of us plan to work for more than a few years without health issues. People need good light-conditions, ergonomic chairs, a full-size screen (to avoid bending the neck), and in some jobs a full-size keyboard is better, etc.

Seriously you are giving advice that will hurt the health of people - https://uhs.umich.edu//computerergonomics

[Twdft]

You can connect normal monitor/m&kb to any laptop that wasn't made before the turn of the century. Companies should require anyone working at home to have a real desk and office chair to avoid back injuries. In my company it's policy to buy office furniture for anyone officially applying to work from home including yearly health&safety check. Which leads to managers allowing people to work from home "as a temporary measure as long as the pandemic is going on". They get away with not buying office furniture by people accepting it knowing noone will come to their home and inspect everything. It's a bit fucked up tbh.

Personally I don't work from home because I don't want to think about work at home. Also I live just 10 minutes away, can understand everyone who needs an hour+ commute loving it.

[Gaidax]

I do work from home most of the time, come to office only once a week and sometimes none at all.

I have to say, it's not ideal. Often you do want this office bubble to concentrate on work with no interruptions by others, context switch is atrocious and with hand on my heart I can say that I'd work better if this would be office full time.

[Endus]

One obvious benefit of having work separated from home is that it makes it easier to have a good work/life-balance; both that you can shut off work after the work-day and also that life doesn't distract you during work (especially if you have young children).

This seems absolutely bananas to me, since you're making a case that having a hard separation makes for better "balance", because you can't be distracted by family things while at work.

Not having to engage in that kind of separation and being able to handle a family issue immediately provides for a far better "balance". What you're describing is a deliberate imbalance, and one that is aggressively in favor of work over and above family.

Hard "separation" is more about turning your work phone off after hours than it is about not working from home. If your boss is even potentially gonna call you after hours, for literally any reason, you're allowing those work "distractions" to interfere in your family time, and right there, you demonstrate you value work over family, as you refuse to accept the reverse.

Some of us plan to work for more than a few years without health issues. People need good light-conditions, ergonomic chairs, a full-size screen (to avoid bending the neck), and in some jobs a full-size keyboard is better, etc.

This isn't that hard to have. Even as a student, I had a good full-size mechanical keyboard, and my office chair's better than the ones at any office I've been to, ergonomically. Especially since I have back problems, and chose my home chair to account for that, whereas in an office that's a lot more iffy if not outright impossible if you're not at a level where you have a private office (and even then, in many cases). I've had more jobs with flourescent lighting that gives me migraine triggers than I can shake a stick at. And my home monitors (yes, two monitors) are as big or bigger than what I've had in any office job.

If you're running a home office, buying these kinds of things if you don't already have them is also often tax-deductible as a business expense. For a really good ergonomic chair of your personal preference, a good keyboard, and an excellent monitor, you're probably looking at less than $500 total. The upper ceiling can go forever, obviously, but that's fully achievable without buying cheap crap alternatives. And while that seems like a lot to low-level workers, when you compare the costs of commuting that you're saving, not just in gas prices but in time, that'll pay for itself in months

The idea that home offices can't be as ergonomic as workplaces is absolutely balls-out ridiculous. More workplaces have given me medical issues than my own home office, speaking as someone with minor-but-not-negligible challenges (as opposed to someone fully hale and hearty, for whom it would be even easier, or someone with major challenges, which most workplaces won't be set up to handle very well)

Oh, and in terms of space, I've had a home office space in every apartment I've owned, even the tiny-ass 480-square-foot one-bedroom I shared with my then-fiancee. It wasn't in a separate room, but it was a full desk with ergo chair and good lighting and all that.

[Specialka]

It's really telling how many companies won't do this, and what it says about their toxic corporate culture. Pretty much every company that makes an effort like this finds out that productivity increases, and employee satisfaction increases, and they need less office space, and it's just win-win for everyone.

Except the ghoulish managers who need to lurk over everyone's shoulders because they only joy they get in life is micromanaging and abusing their staff.

Face-to-face meetings just aren't a requirement in the modern world. Zoom and such are as effective (more, in many cases, since you can have recordings for those who couldn't make it and digital documents so you're not wasting paper). If you can't trust your staff to do their jobs, your management teams are fucking godawful and don't know their asses from their elbows.

Too much homework kills homework. Those companies finds that productivity increase til a point then start to decrease. Full remote is a thing but the best balance is still to have a few day for the office. It is best like 2-3 days homework and 2-3 days at the office.

[Edge-]

Too much homework kills homework. Those companies finds that productivity increase til a point then start to decrease.

Really? All the data I've seen largely shows this not to be true, at least the latter part. Contrary, the data shows that productivity, at worse, usually remains on-par with what they did in-office, and a great many companies see increased productivity still to this day.

https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/...e-productivity

Has multiple links beyond the self-reporting by workers, including federal data supporting this. It's a nice think that managers or executives say to justify trying to force people back into the office and not "waste" all that money they're spending on the lease of the office space, but as of yet there's little data to support it.

Full remote is a thing but the best balance is still to have a few day for the office. It is best like 2-3 days homework and 2-3 days at the office.

Hybrid work is great! As long as it remains optional for the most part, outside of key meetings etc. Again, this massive, multi-year experiment on WFH vs. work from an office is largely a huge win for WFH in terms of both increasing productivity which benefits the business, and improving peoples QoL in general.

[Forogil]

This seems absolutely bananas to me, since you're making a case that having a hard separation makes for better "balance", because you can't be distracted by family things while at work.

It wasn't that you can't be distracted - but that you are not needlessly distracted.

Hard "separation" is more about turning your work phone off after hours than it is about not working from home.

Lots of people check their work mail after hours (despite EU laws making that borderline illegal), and when working from home it's easy to prolong to the hours.

This isn't that hard to have. Even as a student, I had a good full-size mechanical keyboard, and my office chair's better than the ones at any office I've been to, ergonomically. Especially since I have back problems, and chose my home chair to account for that, whereas in an office that's a lot more iffy if not outright impossible if you're not at a level where you have a private office (and even then, in many cases). I've had more jobs with flourescent lighting that gives me migraine triggers than I can shake a stick at. And my home monitors (yes, two monitors) are as big or bigger than what I've had in any office job.

All of that depends. And bad fluorescent lightning at work isn't allowed around here - if you got migraine from that where I worked I wouldn't allow it.

If you're running a home office, buying these kinds of things if you don't already have them is also often tax-deductible as a business expense.

As stated that depends on the local laws, and what I have seen of home offices in Canada haven't impressed me.

For a really good ergonomic chair of your personal preference, a good keyboard, and an excellent monitor, you're probably looking at less than $500 total. The upper ceiling can go forever, obviously, but that's fully achievable without buying cheap crap alternatives.

My office obviously has an adjustable desk as well. A cheap such desk cost about 300$.

And while that seems like a lot to low-level workers, when you compare the costs of commuting that you're saving, not just in gas prices but in time, that'll pay for itself in months

I pay zero for my commute.

The idea that home offices can't be as ergonomic as workplaces is absolutely balls-out ridiculous.

No-one has argued that, but the point is that home offices also have challenges - and it's easy to forget the ergonomics. Having HR send out a picture with bad ergonomics as illustration for WFA-initiative is thus problematic.

[Specialka]

Really? All the data I've seen largely shows this not to be true, at least the latter part. Contrary, the data shows that productivity, at worse, usually remains on-par with what they did in-office, and a great many companies see increased productivity still to this day.

https://www.vox.com/recode/23129752/...e-productivity

Has multiple links beyond the self-reporting by workers, including federal data supporting this. It's a nice think that managers or executives say to justify trying to force people back into the office and not "waste" all that money they're spending on the lease of the office space, but as of yet there's little data to support it.



Hybrid work is great! As long as it remains optional for the most part, outside of key meetings etc. Again, this massive, multi-year experiment on WFH vs. work from an office is largely a huge win for WFH in terms of both increasing productivity which benefits the business, and improving peoples QoL in general.

I can tell by experience. Some teams in my company have 4 days of homeworking and some are even full remote. Worked great at start but productivity started to decrease after a while. But the teams that are on hybrid mode (like 2 days at home, 3 at office) have still increasing productivity.

[Endus]

Too much homework kills homework. Those companies finds that productivity increase til a point then start to decrease. Full remote is a thing but the best balance is still to have a few day for the office. It is best like 2-3 days homework and 2-3 days at the office.

Citation required, since that sure hasn't been the case in the studies I've seen.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...10401b-eng.htm

For example.

58% reporting no productivity loss, 32% noting productivity gains, and only 10% seeing any decline.

This study runs off the Labour Force Survey, which is a monthly survey done constantly by Statscan, with random candidates chosen from all adults in Canada, on a 6-month cycle in most cases. It's the source of most of our data regarding unemployment and such, and it's one of the most data-rich and rigorously-designed surveys Statscan runs; I worked for Statscan for a couple years primarily conducting these surveys, myself. So this isn't a case of like 300 people in a college town being asked. The LFS pulls data from 56,000 households every month, from all over Canada, in all regions and economic frameworks.

[Edge-]

I can tell by experience.

An anecdote, or a few anecdotes, are not data.

Some teams in my company have 4 days of homeworking and some are even full remote. Worked great at start but productivity started to decrease after a while. But the teams that are on hybrid mode (like 2 days at home, 3 at office) have still increasing productivity.

Cool anecdote, and nobody is saying that the productivity boosts are universal. But that's what the trend is overall, and if certain companies are having difficulties with WFH then maybe they need to review their policies or staffing.

Just because your company is seeing a downturn in productively doesn't mean that's applicable beyond just your company.

[Specialka]

Citation required, since that sure hasn't been the case in the studies I've seen.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...10401b-eng.htm

For example.

58% reporting no productivity loss, 32% noting productivity gains, and only 10% seeing any decline.

This study runs off the Labour Force Survey, which is a monthly survey done constantly by Statscan, with random candidates chosen from all adults in Canada, on a 6-month cycle in most cases. It's the source of most of our data regarding unemployment and such, and it's one of the most data-rich and rigorously-designed surveys Statscan runs; I worked for Statscan for a couple years primarily conducting these surveys, myself. So this isn't a case of like 300 people in a college town being asked. The LFS pulls data from 56,000 households every month, from all over Canada, in all regions and economic frameworks.

https://blocnotesdeleco.banque-franc...a-productivite

Homeworking is not as easy as just snapping one's fingers and make it work. It needs preparation from the company and from the employee. And you still can get productivity loss if not well prepared.

- - - Updated - - -

An anecdote, or a few anecdotes, are not data.



Cool anecdote, and nobody is saying that the productivity boosts are universal. But that's what the trend is overall, and if certain companies are having difficulties with WFH then maybe they need to review their policies or staffing.

Just because your company is seeing a downturn in productively doesn't mean that's applicable beyond just your company.

The issue with your reasoning is that my company is more than well prepared for homeworking. We have formation about it, teams are more or less used to it, etc...

[Endus]

It wasn't that you can't be distracted - but that you are not needlessly distracted.

Again, it's irrelevant. I could be distracted by my kids, or I could be distracted by Bill talking about the game last night, or Sharon showing pictures of her daughter's 2nd birthday. The workplace has tons of distractions, too.

Lots of people check their work mail after hours (despite EU laws making that borderline illegal), and when working from home it's easy to prolong to the hours.

If you aren't being paid to be on-call, they shouldn't be checking work mail. It's on people to separate themselves from work, and that's no different whether working from home or not.

All of that depends. And bad fluorescent lightning at work isn't allowed around here - if you got migraine from that where I worked I wouldn't allow it.

Of course it all depends. But the central point is that setting up a home office space isn't particularly expensive or difficult, and ergonomic considerations are likely far less than in a workplace, since you're choosing what's best for you, personally. "It depends" is literally why home offices are "better", because workplaces try and standardize.

As stated that depends on the local laws, and what I have seen of home offices in Canada haven't impressed me.

We're talking about tax deductibility of business expenses. So I don't know what you're talking about with "What you've seen of home offices in Canada". We absolutely have tax laws that allow such deductions.

My office obviously has an adjustable desk as well. A cheap such desk cost about 300$.

You mean a standing desk? 1> That's a specialty item, even in a workplace. 2> A standard desk is probably running $200, so you should really focus on the difference in price, not the absolute.

I pay zero for my commute.

If you have literally any commute, and you're not paid for that time, you're losing time you should be paid for. Even if it's a 5 minute walk down the block.

Even if you're biking and you can lock it up for free, that's not relevant to a lot of jobs, and you've got bike maintenance and such you need to pay for, so even that's not "free".

No-one has argued that, but the point is that home offices also have challenges - and it's easy to forget the ergonomics. Having HR send out a picture with bad ergonomics as illustration for WFA-initiative is thus problematic.

I won't dispute the latter, but I don't see how the argument about ergonomics is in any way unique to home offices. That's the same challenge, except the worker can actually fix the ergonomic issues themselves, where they're flatly not permitted to in many workspaces; they have to send in a request and that may or may not be approved and even if it is, you get the solution the company offers, not the one you might prefer.