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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Same to you. You weren't asking for sources because you actually wanted to learn anything.
    Because the only source that matters is from the company themselves. And since WoW and FF do not report sub numbers that's that. You can guess, you can do whatever you want but it is only that a guess. It is not the right answer. Keep on believing in sites that make up numbers.

    Like I said I'd LOVE to know the sub numbers just so people would stop guessing at it. But nothing is accurate and many of these sites are wildly off because they post about dead games, minor games in alpha and all sorts of other wrong information that has been point out to you. And I'm the one that doesn't want to learn anything.

    You couldn't even leave my name in the quote because you didn't want me to reply. Tough shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I've already provided plenty of data in the past in plenty of past conversations with people just like you.
    Flawed data is not useful. Wrong data is not useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    By the way, there wasn't just one boosting discord. There were many. Everyone wanted a piece of the pie, and made their own communities.
    Ooh now it is 'many' boosting discords. I bet tens of people made lots of money on this! So many.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I'm guessing you're using "literally" as a meaningless fluff word to try to amplify your subjective dogmatism, or do you actually believe they won't be able to pay their bills if they put out another bad expansion?

    IMO the problem is that they very much can afford to keep putting out bad expansions. If bad expansions caused them not to be able to pay bills, then I think we would have seen changes a while ago.
    Ya know this is actually a super good point people don't make enough, even in context of other things. Like there's this huge problem in some professional sports where success has been completely decoupled from team profitability, so owners don't even bother spending money to try to win.

    This decoupling has actually happened with a ton of stuff in society, and games/streaming media are often a pretty good example. Studios like Disney can afford to keep putting out mediocre filler garbage because quality is frankly just not that important! people stay subbed anyway.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Ya know this is actually a super good point people don't make enough, even in context of other things. Like there's this huge problem in some professional sports where success has been completely decoupled from team profitability, so owners don't even bother spending money to try to win.

    This decoupling has actually happened with a ton of stuff in society, and games/streaming media are often a pretty good example. Studios like Disney can afford to keep putting out mediocre filler garbage because quality is frankly just not that important! people stay subbed anyway.
    Or maybe people stay subbed because, get this,. they actually like it and don't think it is filler or garbage?

    People really need to stop projecting their opinion as fact. It causes disingenuous statements like yours.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Or maybe people stay subbed because, get this,. they actually like it and don't think it is filler or garbage?

    People really need to stop projecting their opinion as fact. It causes disingenuous statements like yours.
    To be fair, I don't think @Ashana Darkmoon was referring to WoW, they were speaking in general (specifically about Disney/Marvel).

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Or maybe people stay subbed because, get this,. they actually like it and don't think it is filler or garbage?

    People really need to stop projecting their opinion as fact. It causes disingenuous statements like yours.
    That really misses the point! It's not projection, it's a real issue in a lot of areas. For example: if your fans keep coming to your games and buying merchandize even when the team sucks for 10 years straight, you have effectively decoupled success from profit. This is really bad if you are a fan of the game because you've effectively incentivized owners not to care about their teams!

    Now I mean, you can make the point that if fans show up, they clearly believe the experience is still worthwhile and so the product is fine. And maybe that's a convincing argument if you are a shareholder or have a financial stake in the [product] or something. But for fans who like the actual sport/game, it makes a much worse product overall! (it's also worse for the players since their value is based on their ability to win, and if winning isn't important...). Very easy to apply this to streaming stuff too in ways I'd think would be obvious.

    To be clear I don't think WoW is the MLB or i wouldn't be playing lol. But it the comment I was responding to did make an interesting point I thought was broadly applicable to a lot of things, including games! Put another way, the link between profit/popularity and however we define success may not be as casually linked as we all wish! Lots of other factors in play, like a continually growing sunk cost*.

    *the same reason I still suffer through playing shadow priest

  6. #246
    [QUOTE=Ashana Darkmoon;53875732]That really misses the point! It's not projection, it's a real issue in a lot of areas. For example: if your fans keep coming to your games and buying merchandize even when the team sucks for 10 years straight, you have effectively decoupled success from profit. This is really bad if you are a fan of the game because you've effectively incentivized owners not to care about their teams![/quyote]This is complete apples to oranges. Sports teeams are far differnt a video game because with a sports team you can actually show that they are bad by looking at the win/loss record. WIth a video game, it is complete opinion on if it is bad or not. YOu think the game is bad, but many others think the game is great. You are projecting your opinion of the game is fact.

    Now I mean, you can make the point that if fans show up, they clearly believe the experience is still worthwhile and so the product is fine. And maybe that's a convincing argument if you are a shareholder or have a financial stake in the [product] or something. But for fans who like the actual sport/game, it makes a much worse product overall! (it's also worse for the players since their value is based on their ability to win, and if winning isn't important...). Very easy to apply this to streaming stuff too in ways I'd think would be obvious.
    Again a video game and a sports team are not remotely comprable for the reasons I outlined above.

    To be clear I don't think WoW is the MLB or i wouldn't be playing lol. But it the comment I was responding to did make an interesting point I thought was broadly applicable to a lot of things, including games! Put another way, the link between profit/popularity and however we define success may not be as casually linked as we all wish! Lots of other factors in play, like a continually growing sunk cost*.

    *the same reason I still suffer through playing shadow priest
    But it isn't because sports teams are completely different in how you quantify good and bad. You can do that with sports teams as I mentioned. Video games being good or bad is strictly opinion because there are no numbers to quantify it.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Again a video game and a sports team are not remotely comprable for the reasons I outlined above.
    Sure there are a lot of differences between the two, but there are also some marked similarities. The whole phenomenon in which people hang around WoW seemingly just to bitch about how bad it is has no closer parallel that I can think of than to the fanbases of any number of unsuccessful sports teams. There is a strange emotional connection to an entertainment product that keeps a sizable chunk of people pulled in.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Sure there are a lot of differences between the two, but there are also some marked similarities. The whole phenomenon in which people hang around WoW seemingly just to bitch about how bad it is has no closer parallel that I can think of than to the fanbases of any number of unsuccessful sports teams. There is a strange emotional connection to an entertainment product that keeps a sizable chunk of people pulled in.
    It's worse with WoW than other fandoms because other fandoms still actively consume the products. If you were to compare WoW to SW, it'd be like half of SW's fanbase claiming the original trilogy was the best while admitting they haven't even watched any of the other movies.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's worse with WoW than other fandoms because other fandoms still actively consume the products. If you were to compare WoW to SW, it'd be like half of SW's fanbase claiming the original trilogy was the best while admitting they haven't even watched any of the other movies.
    I think you're generally right, but moment of truth here: my only connection with my university's athletic program is to talk about how much they suck and commiseration with fellow alums. Granted, I don't spend hours every day going on forums and whatnot like the raging WoW-hating lunatics, but I can see the parallel.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post

    You clearly have not time to play the game "properly" but still you want to play it, instead of playing another game that may fit better your gameplay session and have less hassle.
    Exactly, I want to play the game at the higher levels, which is where the fun is, but, as you say, too much hassle to get there. And instead I do mostly play other games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Playing the game is complicated and annoying and a terrible experience, so you buy boosts to make your experience better otherwise you cannot enjoy the game. And you're not alone and it's clear there's an upwards trend of people doing this right off the bat no questions asked.
    Well, I don't buy boosts, but I understand why people buy them. Some just opts out like me, and some still try making it work (like I did for a long time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post

    It's just fascinating. The community itself instead of building up relations to make their gameplay better, just resorts as a whole to buy boosts from more skilled players so they "can also enjoy the game as it's supposed to be fun". I find it a full devolution of the playerbase to an abysmal level.

    If it's truly like this, i can see my game days in WoW basically counted. It will reach a critical mass where either you get a boost or you're just left out of the content. Hopefully my current guild keeps going on, otherwise i'm done. Simply because buying a boost takes away all the value in doing anything in game - i want to earn my stuff and not pay to get it.

    EDIT: this doesn't mean people should play in a certain way. Everyone spends money for a sub so it's not my problem tbh. But i can see this devolving like the faction balance, to the point game changing measures have to be taken because there's no other way available.
    You are not wrong. It does devolve the game and the community. That's why I'm more concerned about the cause than the symptoms. The cause being that Blizzard care more about you spending more time in-game (i.e. gear threadmill) than they do about whether you enjoy that time or not.

    As for the devolution, I might have already reached the point of no return. I'll play Wotlk to get a last glimpse of the glory days, but I most likely won't buy dragonflight.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    You are not wrong. It does devolve the game and the community. That's why I'm more concerned about the cause than the symptoms. The cause being that Blizzard care more about you spending more time in-game (i.e. gear threadmill) than they do about whether you enjoy that time or not.

    As for the devolution, I might have already reached the point of no return. I'll play Wotlk to get a last glimpse of the glory days, but I most likely won't buy dragonflight.
    I think the only actual solution is by making boosts less relevant. This means a lot of things - from making content way more appealing so people want to play it instead of skipping it to the fact that if content was a cakewalk from start to end no one would need a boost (because the time and "bad players" friction would just be gone altogether).

    M+ has been a great driver toward this because it enables "solo play" and delivers both a good experience and relevant rewards, but it's not the cause or anything. Blizzard in the end needs to enforce the policies they want the game to based on and a) they didn't and b) it's pretty clear they're fine with the boosting scene as it is. They just want to "hide" it a little more so people opting out of the related channels won't have the impressions most people is still boosting.

    In the end, there is no real solution. People is fine with paying to achieve goals and taking shortcuts all the time. It impacts me, but just indirectly (excluding the 2.4k rio lock that closes a 16 with 8k dps overall) because in the end, i am having fun with my guild most of the time fortunately. However, scheduled and organized gameplay is getting less and less rewarding, and losing a lot of appeal even for tight groups who find themselves in a situation where they want to play together but that also means doing fun stuff that's less worth doing in the end.

    I kind of expect (as a very big ARPG fan) that once one of them comes out and really hoooks me, i will be done. because i could truly play solo and my progression is my own, as i don't have to rely on anything else (not even 4 AI bots to do a M+ run) and can play a game to my content. Right now Last Epoch is doing wonders and while not fully committed i'm constantly on and off it. Probably D4 is going to be a huge contender, if Blizzard doesn't do stupid shit like D3 or trying to copy PoE/other ARPGs without actually understanding how stuff works.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I think the only actual solution is by making boosts less relevant. This means a lot of things - from making content way more appealing so people want to play it instead of skipping it to the fact that if content was a cakewalk from start to end no one would need a boost (because the time and "bad players" friction would just be gone altogether).

    M+ has been a great driver toward this because it enables "solo play" and delivers both a good experience and relevant rewards, but it's not the cause or anything. Blizzard in the end needs to enforce the policies they want the game to based on and a) they didn't and b) it's pretty clear they're fine with the boosting scene as it is. They just want to "hide" it a little more so people opting out of the related channels won't have the impressions most people is still boosting.

    In the end, there is no real solution. People is fine with paying to achieve goals and taking shortcuts all the time. It impacts me, but just indirectly (excluding the 2.4k rio lock that closes a 16 with 8k dps overall) because in the end, i am having fun with my guild most of the time fortunately. However, scheduled and organized gameplay is getting less and less rewarding, and losing a lot of appeal even for tight groups who find themselves in a situation where they want to play together but that also means doing fun stuff that's less worth doing in the end.

    I kind of expect (as a very big ARPG fan) that once one of them comes out and really hoooks me, i will be done. because i could truly play solo and my progression is my own, as i don't have to rely on anything else (not even 4 AI bots to do a M+ run) and can play a game to my content. Right now Last Epoch is doing wonders and while not fully committed i'm constantly on and off it. Probably D4 is going to be a huge contender, if Blizzard doesn't do stupid shit like D3 or trying to copy PoE/other ARPGs without actually understanding how stuff works.
    Blizzard is not going to do ANYTHING that would make boosting less attractive.

    The main reason why people buy tokens is to pay for boosts, and Blizzard is getting a shit ton of money from token sales. They're not going to endanger that source of income. The only thing they're gonna do is keep boosting at a level that doesn't irritate players who don't buy boosts, which would be most players. No one wants to see public chat channels absolutely flooded with boosting ads, it makes the game feel cheap and exploitable, and that's a major turnoff.

    There is one simple solution to remove boosting from the game, but one that would drill a hole in Blizzard's pocket: remove the token. Without gold from selling tokens, not many players will be able to afford boosting, and so the number of customers for boosters will drop like a rock in a pond and in turn will greatly reduce the number of boosters, and pretty much reduce boosting back to pre-token times when it was rare and on the hush-hush.

    But Blizzard is not going to do that, of course, too much money coming in from token sales.

  13. #253
    I seem to recall mention of policy changes but I haven't played in 10 months. is it now against terms to offer raid carries for gold?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by sakdene05 View Post
    I seem to recall mention of policy changes but I haven't played in 10 months. is it now against terms to offer raid carries for gold?
    I haven't seen any advertised, but a quick Google search shows a bunch of sites selling runs for real money. I laughed and did a full cleanse of my computer. More spyware there than you could shake a stick at.
    Retail sucks. Classic sucks. No positivity, only negative feedback. Why is everybody so damn miserable? Must be somebody else's fault, it couldn't possibly be my INSANELY TOXIC ATTITUDE.

  15. #255
    Bash me all you want, but I pay for a boost with real money. It is so cheap to buy runs. I make more in an hour than it costs for the booster to boost me for 4 * 15+, which usually lasts over an hour. Why do I do it? I don't have to spam countless low m+ runs to gear up an alt. I don't have to spend hours and hours posting keys in groups and hoping I get a decent group. I play when I want, and I don't waste time looking or posting. I pay and tell them when I will be on, and I have a group ready. There is no BS, no complaints if someone dies. I get lots of gear. I can even bring a fresh level 60, and it will be fine.

    Do I know mechanics or how to play my class? Yup, I also pug runs from time to time and usually top charts. I also don't play Meta/FOTM spec so getting into a group is much more complicated. Not to mention people have unreal expectations. You need to be in full 304 item gear to get accepted for a +15 with over 2.5k Rio even to be considered. Not to mention everyone in the group knows what they are doing for the booster. I still remember in S1 in plague Falls when the mage wouldn’t CC the ads that spawn and don’t bother killing the addds, just tunnel on the boss. I was playing my bear druid and we wiped because the adds got to the boss not once, not twice but three times. After I explained the fight again, no one CC the ads. We died three times, so I quit. Another time the hunter wouldn’t click on the bombs in one of the bosses on Da’s other side. It was such a drag. I am again tanking, have to the bombs, and click on time because no one else would, and I got to yell at by the melee for moving the boss.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Do I know mechanics or how to play my class? Yup, I also pug runs from time to time and usually top charts. I also don't play Meta/FOTM spec so getting into a group is much more complicated.
    Want to know what it means when someone goes out of their way to say these things? That they don't top charts, they die to mechanics and because they are not playing optimally they are already behind the 8-ball. Look if you want to play a Necrolord Balance Druid and do less damage that's cool, but don't pretend you are on equal footing as someone that goes in groups that has to play better to help their runs complete the task at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Not to mention everyone in the group knows what they are doing for the booster.
    Duh? Because they don't need you to do anything. You are getting carried and you could be doing 0 dps and dead all the time and the other 4 people will still usually beat the 15 without you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    Bash me all you want, but I pay for a boost with real money.
    Can only hope you got a 6 month suspension for it too.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    boosting communities turned into guilds, no real change in fact. you can't prevent boosting, it will always exist and it may be supported by blizzard one day.
    Boosting is 100% preventable and should be banned--both for gold and real-life currency. It cheapens raid achievements and it de-motivates players towards working to complete content when they can just pay for it.

  18. #258
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Boosting is 100% preventable and should be banned--both for gold and real-life currency. It cheapens raid achievements and it de-motivates players towards working to complete content when they can just pay for it.
    You realize that gold boosting is Blizzard sponsored RMT? People buy WoW tokens to get that gold a lot of the time. They're never going to stop gold boosting at this point, but would rather scorched earth the player base in hopes they can get all the RMT boosters that do financially prevent Blizzard from getting their cut.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Want to know what it means when someone goes out of their way to say these things? That they don't top charts, they die to mechanics and because they are not playing optimally they are already behind the 8-ball. Look if you want to play a Necrolord Balance Druid and do less damage that's cool, but don't pretend you are on equal footing as someone that goes in groups that has to play better to help their runs complete the task at hand.

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    Duh? Because they don't need you to do anything. You are getting carried and you could be doing 0 dps and dead all the time and the other 4 people will still usually beat the 15 without you.

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    Can only hope you got a 6 month suspension for it too.
    LOL. you can say what you want but the boosting community has been around since the game was around. If blizzard really wants to ban boost for real money they would have done it ages ago. Also, streamers have to open to them getting boosted on live yet nothing happens. Coz blizzard doesn't care. Most boosters are from top guilds doing it. I been on both sides boosting people during Warth and have been boosted. Blizzard well knows what is going on. They can literally ban most of the booster accounts overnight if they want to but won't. Too much money for blizzard to do anything.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Agall View Post
    You realize that gold boosting is Blizzard sponsored RMT? People buy WoW tokens to get that gold a lot of the time. They're never going to stop gold boosting at this point, but would rather scorched earth the player base in hopes they can get all the RMT boosters that do financially prevent Blizzard from getting their cut.
    Yes. I don't think WoW tokens should be in game either due to their effect on the server economy. Both harm raiding.

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