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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    "got arrested"
    the law didn't stop shit
    physical apprehension and imprisonment did.
    many laws are broken where people don't see a cuff or a cell, so people will continue to boost, and pay for boosting. deal with it.
    so when I'm driving through a school zone and everyone slows down to match the reduced speed limit... are we not all slowing down because of the law? Isn't the law slowing us down or you going to use some reaching ass argument like the threat of punishment or that we actually are worried there is a kid walking across a busy street 2 hours after school started.

  2. #102
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danki1337 View Post
    not against wow tos to boost for GOLD
    It is if you are making a business out of it and some people see community groups as organizations, hence the big move to guilds but even then, it is restricted how you wish to operate. It as well is if you don't follow the right rules for advertisement.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Selling in-game items and services such as carries or boosting for real money is not allowed.

    Individuals and guilds selling items and services for gold is allowed but can only be advertised in-game through the Trade chat channel. Advertisements are not allowed in the Group Finder. The Group Finder is intended to help players find active groups that are being formed and advertisements make it difficult to find relevant groups.

    Organizations who offer boosting, matchmaking, escrow, or other non-traditional services, including those offered for gold are prohibited, especially those who operate across multiple realms.

    Accounts that are used for the primary purpose of advertising may be closed.

    (Source)
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    So, first off I'm going to point out that you didn't apologize for lying about what I said when you claimed I wanted Mythic gear for dailies quests, despite the fact that I said I want less extrinsic rewards. You completely reversed what I said and have no shame about it, instead choosing to double down by doing a new assertation of what I'm saying. You are dishonest.

    Second, I'll quote myself:



    So, I don't doubt that people find "vertical progression" to be fun, but it's exactly the driver behind boosts - the reward is all that is cared about. And that's my point, the experience wrapped around that reward is not fun for many. M+ itself is not fun for most people, but they still desire the reward because progression is fun. You are, in fact, arguing my point ... that it's only the rewards driving people and not the experience.

    Now, sure, there are also many people that do find M+ fun. And good for them! But, again, that's why I say that there needs to be fun activities at ALL levels, and not just at the tippy-top most organized level. If fun, for most players, is just the hunt for better gear then you're going to get boosts ... because they want the reward but hate the process of getting the reward and boosts fulfill both needs for the player. And my original comment was driving to this, that if we want boosting to go away then the content itself needs to be fun in some way for everyone and rewards need to be minimized.

    Now, as you point out, WoW has been a gear progression system for a good while. I would argue that it hasn't been strictly that since launch because there's been plenty of experiments with content that was not gear-rewarding (like Mage Tower, Isle of Thunder, Tillers Farm, Legion Fisherfriends) but it has been the general thrust. The point is, if WoW is going to remain primarily gear-driven then you can never end boosting so you might as well embrace it fully. Boosting is a direct consequence of WoW being a rewards-driven game rather than an experience-driven game.

    If you choose to reply to me, start it with an apology for lying about what I posted in the first place, and then respond to the remainder politely, please. If your only interest is in scoring points and being an ass then I see no point in even talking to you and would rather not waste my time. Most of all, stop assuming what I think and read what I state I think, then respond to that rather than whatever bugaboo you got going on in your own head.
    I'm not going to apologize for correctly reducing your terrible argument against vertical progression in WoW to its base root: You and every other player making this dogshit argument want the best the game can offer for doing nothing at all under some vague, barely defined concept of fun in a video game. Then you use the fact that boosting exists as some kind of weird bogeyman, as if boosting totally destroys every aspect of the game, diminishing its value at some incalculable level and if we, the great and mighty anti-boosters, do not band together as community to prevent it from happening the bad guys win. Worse yet, instead of understanding and accepting that human nature lends itself to boosting, you further use its existence as some kind of leverage tool for game design which appeals solely to your warped concept of how the game should be played. Fact is, boosting is not a big enough of a problem in WoW to warrant a total redesign of its reward system. You should not get Mythic raiding gear from daily quests.

    If this take upsets you, block me. I promise you, I do not care.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Sounds like Blizzard should have done something about that. You act like it’s inevitable when it’s perfectly controllable.
    A decade of failing spectacularly to control it indicated otherwise.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-07 at 12:51 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    so when I'm driving through a school zone and everyone slows down to match the reduced speed limit... are we not all slowing down because of the law? Isn't the law slowing us down or you going to use some reaching ass argument like the threat of punishment or that we actually are worried there is a kid walking across a busy street 2 hours after school started.
    There's a reasonable argument previously made when the law was written that slowing down in school zones is a benefit to keep children safe. If you're going to conflate issues, try to use a better example. People slow down voluntarily, the law doesn't MAKE them.
    Last edited by Jinpachi; 2022-08-06 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    A decade of failing spectacularly to control it indicated otherwise.
    Blizzard being bad at something doesn't mean no solutions exist. Blizzard has demonstrated a profound talent for failure for quite awhile now. They aren't gods amongst men, infallible and all knowing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    "got arrested"
    the law didn't stop shit
    physical apprehension and imprisonment did.
    many laws are broken where people don't see a cuff or a cell, so people will continue to boost, and pay for boosting. deal with it.
    And they physically apprehended him and imprisoned him based on what? Maybe it's a word that starts with an "L". What could it be?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    There's a reasonable argument previously made when the law was written that slowing down in school zones is a benefit to keep children safe. If you're going to conflate issues, try to use a better example. People slow down voluntarily, the law doesn't MAKE them.
    It's not voluntary if the alternative is violence from the state. That's actually the opposite of voluntary.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    You're entitled to your opinion.

    It's wrong, but it's yours.

    I'd rather buy my gold from a reputable source (especially one Blizz is ok with, for obvious reasons) and not have to worry about a. my money being stolen and no gold and b. getting banned for breaking ToS.

    Blizzard created the token for two reasons: to fight gold sellers and to provide a service people very clearly wanted and used.

    The Token did not harm anything, it simply made it 'cleaner' to acquire gold via cash that has ALWAYS been in the game (and every other MMO to fucking date).

    You seriously need to get over this weird ass idea you have about the wow token.
    You shouldn't be allowed to buy gold in the 1st place or feel the need to, your time isn't more important than anybody else's FYI. It creates a system of 2nd class wow players who have to deal with the inflation of everything. There are reasons why the game is at the lowest sub rates ever and it's not just because of shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Chinese gold farmers would've harmed the game more.
    That's not true, It was actually the less of an issue with them because people who got caught both buying or botting had their accounts banned permanently now that doesn't happen. All the pricks who think their time is more important than other people who are doing that are now able to just keep playing the game and most of them are dicks.
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2022-08-06 at 10:34 PM.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    There's a reasonable argument previously made when the law was written that slowing down in school zones is a benefit to keep children safe. If you're going to conflate issues, try to use a better example. People slow down voluntarily, the law doesn't MAKE them.
    You're right that the written word isn't stopping anyone, its the threat of punishment from violating those words. But to pretend the enforcement and the words themselves are not directly correlated is just pedantic. I also fail how to see im conflating anything, you said the law doesn't stop anything and I called out your BS statement but then again I know who I'm talking to gigachad Jinpachi who says wow has no challenges and probably drives 100 down every street that doesnt endanger his own life and speeds up through school/construction zones because no law can stop him.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    That's not true, It was actually the less of an issue with them because people who got caught both buying or botting had their accounts banned permanently now that doesn't happen. All the pricks who think their time is more important than other people who are doing that are now able to just keep playing the game and most of them are dicks.
    Ahhh, you must be a WoD-Baby, because anybody who actually played during the pre-token days knows that every chat channel in every city on every realm was nothing but gold-buying spam 24/7, and people who got caught botting gold just made a new account and kept going, because they'd made enough money botting gold that the 15$/month was insignificant.

    Not to mention a significant portion of the bought and sold gold was from hacked accounts, not botting, and you'd near constantly hear about people having their accounts hacked and all their gold transferred out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Ahhh, you must be a WoD-Baby, because anybody who actually played during the pre-token days knows that every chat channel in every city on every realm was nothing but gold-buying spam 24/7, and people who got caught botting gold just made a new account and kept going, because they'd made enough money botting gold that the 15$/month was insignificant.

    Not to mention a significant portion of the bought and sold gold was from hacked accounts, not botting, and you'd near constantly hear about people having their accounts hacked and all their gold transferred out.
    Being uneducated in internet safety is on you the user not Blizzard.

    People need to stop being in denial of the fact that it is not healthy for the game to keep the token. There are anti-cheat/anti-bot methods that are modern that work as well so that isn't an issue.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If @Unholyground had his way, Bill Gates himself would descend from the heavens on a golden chariot using a shoulder-mounted RPG to personally nuke Blizzard HQ from orbit. I don't understand his weird obsession with the token or the MS takeover but he seems convinced that Blizzard and Microsoft are both in the business of making less money.
    looooooool

  11. #111
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    You shouldn't be allowed to buy gold in the 1st place or feel the need to, your time isn't more important than anybody else's FYI. It creates a system of 2nd class wow players who have to deal with the inflation of everything. There are reasons why the game is at the lowest sub rates ever and it's not just because of shadowlands.
    1a. My time is fantastically more important than anyone elses, because it is *mine*. And that isn't a selfish sentiment, as everyone should feel that way. How I spend my time, and more importantly for the context of this discussion, how I decide to spend my money, is up to me. Not you, not Billy-Bob over there, and certainly not Carrie Lee sitting off in a corner on their phone.

    Whether you like it or not, or cannot cope with the reality that gold selling is an absolute thing in any and every single MMO that has ever existed, doesn't matter, hence why I said your opinion (this one included) is wrong.

    1b. If you want to be incredibly technical, another 'illegal' activity, Botting (and now multiboxing iirc) leads to driving down the prices of supplies you'd otherwise buy on the auction house. The only people who would otherwise feel like '2nd class citizens' are those who want to feel persecuted are the ones who find any and everything to bitch about, regardless of logic or truth -- like people who raise pitchfork about WoW tokens, for example. What, precisely, would make anyone feel like a second class citizen? I don't see people raising hell over people who play the AH, getting GOLD CAP on multiple characters per account (aka, the ones who REALLY make use of Boost services to enjoy another aspect of the game they can just buy themselves without needing to 'properly earn').

    I'd LOVE to see what you feel makes you the proper mouthpiece for these '2nd class netizens of WoW'.

    2. Don't spout bullshit without having facts to back up your claims - There are reasons why the game is at the lowest sub rates ever and it's not just because of shadowlands. Give us proof. Back up your claim with actual information rather than someone's overemotional blogpost.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post

    2. Don't spout bullshit without having facts to back up your claims - There are reasons why the game is at the lowest sub rates ever and it's not just because of shadowlands. Give us proof. Back up your claim with actual information rather than someone's overemotional blogpost.
    Speaking of facts and backing things up.......................Please provide the most recent data on subscriber counts to back up your claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I'm telling you now blizzard's moving towards removing the token and anything that can sway the games economy negatively. You don't make a full rework of a core system (crafting) in a game like this that's tied to the game's economics Is without making other big changes.

    I would be surprised if boosting It's allowed in the next 6 months it's going to be highly against their terms of use once the token is gone.

    Then we can get rid of all these QQ babies that have more Money then brains. I remember when the token was added and it seemed like a good thing at the time but it went downhill very quickly and has had very negative impacts in multiple areas of the game.
    If they remove the token the game will die lol

  14. #114
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Speaking of facts and backing things up.......................Please provide the most recent data on subscriber counts to back up your claim.
    I don't have to. The onus is on the individual who made such outlandish claims to prove themselves correct. That's how that works.

    If I made a comment saying that, for example, 'Around 5am on Saturday, the Sky was a bright purple and meteor showers fell from the heavens where God decided to piss on all of us', it would be up to *me* to provide data and facts as to my statement. Since I'm the one trying to convince all of you (a general statement) of the facts behind what I said.

    Anyone can make wildly inaccurate statements without any actual proof.

    That's just pretty common(???) sense.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    If they remove the token the game will die lol
    No it won't lmao.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Blizzard being bad at something doesn't mean no solutions exist. Blizzard has demonstrated a profound talent for failure for quite awhile now. They aren't gods amongst men, infallible and all knowing.
    I never implied they were so this is a bit of a weird take. Blizzard is not infallible but at some point they had to acknowledge they were losing the battle. There's this prevailing notion that if Blizzard had just hired thousands of real humans to detect and remove the gold farmers, they could have changed the trajectory of history and turned the tides. The issue I have with this take is that even if they managed to somehow reduce the number of farmers it wouldn't remove any of the gold they had already farmed from the economy and the demand for boosting would remain exactly the same. The other problem I have is that people often completely neglect to consider what the token provides players in exchange. It's frequently positioned as "Blizzard selling gold" when it is, full stop, Blizzard simply providing a service in exchange for a subscription and fully allowing the free market to determine its value. This take often gets interpreted as "simping for Blizzard" because it is, after all, a bit multi dollar company to take 5 bucks off the top of each token sold, but... I'd personally take capitalist hellscape where the evil multi national company profits from latent human laziness over the one where the same thing happens but instead of Blizzard it's some guy in China running a gold farming empire in his dimly lit, barely air conditioned basement.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I never implied they were so this is a bit of a weird take. Blizzard is not infallible but at some point they had to acknowledge they were losing the battle. There's this prevailing notion that if Blizzard had just hired thousands of real humans to detect and remove the gold farmers, they could have changed the trajectory of history and turned the tides. The issue I have with this take is that even if they managed to somehow reduce the number of farmers it wouldn't remove any of the gold they had already farmed from the economy and the demand for boosting would remain exactly the same. The other problem I have is that people often completely neglect to consider what the token provides players in exchange. It's frequently positioned as "Blizzard selling gold" when it is, full stop, Blizzard simply providing a service in exchange for a subscription and fully allowing the free market to determine its value. This take often gets interpreted as "simping for Blizzard" because it is, after all, a bit multi dollar company to take 5 bucks off the top of each token sold, but... I'd personally take capitalist hellscape where the evil multi national company profits from latent human laziness over the one where the same thing happens but instead of Blizzard it's some guy in China running a gold farming empire in his dimly lit, barely air conditioned basement.
    That’s a false dichotomy. Gold selling is a problem that can be minimized to irrelevance or removed entirely. Other games have done both.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That’s a false dichotomy. Gold selling is a problem that can be minimized to irrelevance or removed entirely. Other games have done both.
    No other MMO has ever been as successful as WoW so this argument kind of lends itself to an alternative timeline where "other games" were never exposed to the same unrelenting demand for boosting (because they weren't playing other MMOs, they were playing WoW). Also, I promise you that in any example you provide there are still services in these games which exist for players to exchange real life currency for rewards. Pushing the visibility of these services into the dark web is not a valid solution, imo. The other solution is to make the WoW's progression system less vertical and I've already said my piece on that elsewhere in this thread. Boosting is not a big enough issue to warrant a complete top-down disruption of its current reward system. I already get enough shit for being a Blizzard apologist so I don't want to defend the token too much but it is, imo, the best solution to the gold selling problem.

  19. #119
    As the bald WoW streamer man once said: fuk the boosting community, fuk the gold sellers, fuk the WoW token and fuk the in game shop.

    Get rid of them all: Good riddance i say!

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    No other MMO has ever been as successful as WoW so this argument kind of lends itself to an alternative timeline where "other games" were never exposed to the same unrelenting demand for boosting (because they weren't playing other MMOs, they were playing WoW). Also, I promise you that in any example you provide there are still services in these games which exist for players to exchange real life currency for rewards. Pushing the visibility of these services into the dark web is not a valid solution, imo. The other solution is to make the WoW's progression system less vertical and I've already said my piece on that elsewhere in this thread. Boosting is not a big enough issue to warrant a complete top-down disruption of its current reward system. I already get enough shit for being a Blizzard apologist so I don't want to defend the token too much but it is, imo, the best solution to the gold selling problem.
    You are making two contradictory arguments:

    1. Illegal boosting is such an existential problem to the game that Blizzard has to sell the wow token to protect it.
    2. Boosting isn't that big of a deal so we shouldn't make fundamental changes to the game to combat it.

    Which is it?

    Blizzard created the systems that result in demand for boosting, and then created a way to profit from that boosting. They could just as easily get rid of what creates the demand for boosting, and most of those changes would be trivial.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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