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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I don't have to. The onus is on the individual who made such outlandish claims to prove themselves correct. That's how that works.

    If I made a comment saying that, for example, 'Around 5am on Saturday, the Sky was a bright purple and meteor showers fell from the heavens where God decided to piss on all of us', it would be up to *me* to provide data and facts as to my statement. Since I'm the one trying to convince all of you (a general statement) of the facts behind what I said.

    Anyone can make wildly inaccurate statements without any actual proof.

    That's just pretty common(???) sense.
    You missed his point entirely.

    You made a claim about the game being at "the lowest sub rates ever":
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    2. Don't spout bullshit without having facts to back up your claims - There are reasons why the game is at the lowest sub rates ever and it's not just because of shadowlands.
    And you haven't provided any evidence to back that up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You missed his point entirely.

    You made a claim about the game being at "the lowest sub rates ever":


    And you haven't provided any evidence to back that up.
    There's a reasonable amount of information to conclude WoW is at the lowest rates ever, just from earnings calls alone. Is it 100% rock solid evidence? No, but it isn't an unreasonable conclusion to draw from the publicly available information about sub losses after Shadowlands launch and monetary losses in the last year.

    And that's putting aside the question of how many subs are people who play *retail*.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are making two contradictory arguments:

    1. Illegal boosting is such an existential problem to the game that Blizzard has to sell the wow token to protect it.
    2. Boosting isn't that big of a deal so we shouldn't make fundamental changes to the game to combat it.

    Which is it?

    Blizzard created the systems that result in demand for boosting, and then created a way to profit from that boosting. They could just as easily get rid of what creates the demand for boosting, and most of those changes would be trivial.
    ???

    When did I say that "illegal boosting has to be protected by the token"? I said that the token is the most elegant solution to the gold selling problem. Are you arguing that all gold sales are immediately converted into boosts?

    Further, removing vertical progression from WoW is hardly trivial and you know this.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ???

    When did I say that "illegal boosting has to be protected by the token"? I said that the token is the most elegant solution to the gold selling problem. Are you arguing that all gold sales are immediately converted into boosts?

    Further, removing vertical progression from WoW is hardly trivial and you know this.
    It would absolutely be trivial to introduce something like a currency that lets players gear up doing whatever content they want. This notion that the game would come crashing down if Steve Smith, a guy I never talk to and will never play with, can gear up is comical.

    And you know why its comical? Because Steve Smith ALREADY CAN DO THAT BY BUYING WOW TOKENS. So who the fuck cares if he can do it by actually playing the game? It's irrational.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #125
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It would absolutely be trivial to introduce something like a currency that lets players gear up doing whatever content they want. This notion that the game would come crashing down if Steve Smith, a guy I never talk to and will never play with, can gear up is comical.

    And you know why its comical? Because Steve Smith ALREADY CAN DO THAT BY BUYING WOW TOKENS. So who the fuck cares if he can do it by actually playing the game? It's irrational.
    Pretty much this 100%. People claiming Blizzards hands are tied are blind, deaf, dumb, or all 3. They absolutely could do something. They just know that the current model encourages WoW token sales.

    But we've been over this conversation 100 times. Certain people think that gaming companies shouldn't be beholden to their gamers or the quality of the game, and then act surprised and belligerent when told the community at large hates the game.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It would absolutely be trivial to introduce something like a currency that lets players gear up doing whatever content they want. This notion that the game would come crashing down if Steve Smith, a guy I never talk to and will never play with, can gear up is comical.

    And you know why its comical? Because Steve Smith ALREADY CAN DO THAT BY BUYING WOW TOKENS. So who the fuck cares if he can do it by actually playing the game? It's irrational.
    Ah, so we've arrived at the "you should get Mythic gear from dailies" stage of the argument. I promise you, I don't care what your hypothetical Steve Smith decides to do with his time. But, on a fundamental level, I think that video games should encourage their players to get better at the game. And there isn't any better way to help encourage players to get better at WoW then locking commensurate rewards behind commensurate difficulty of content. Not all Steve Smiths are going to circumvent WoW's vertical progression system by buying boosts. (In fact, this likely represents an incredibly small fraction of the active playerbase.) The existence of people buying boosts is not enough of an issue to simply throw one's hands in the air and say "fuck it, Mythic gear for everybody!"

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It is if you are making a business out of it and some people see community groups as organizations, hence the big move to guilds but even then, it is restricted how you wish to operate. It as well is if you don't follow the right rules for advertisement.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Selling in-game items and services such as carries or boosting for real money is not allowed.

    Individuals and guilds selling items and services for gold is allowed but can only be advertised in-game through the Trade chat channel. Advertisements are not allowed in the Group Finder. The Group Finder is intended to help players find active groups that are being formed and advertisements make it difficult to find relevant groups.

    Organizations who offer boosting, matchmaking, escrow, or other non-traditional services, including those offered for gold are prohibited, especially those who operate across multiple realms.

    Accounts that are used for the primary purpose of advertising may be closed.

    (Source)
    That literally says for real money. I know this might shock you but gold isn't real money.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Ah, so we've arrived at the "you should get Mythic gear from dailies" stage of the argument. I promise you, I don't care what your hypothetical Steve Smith decides to do with his time. But, on a fundamental level, I think that video games should encourage their players to get better at the game. And there isn't any better way to help encourage players to get better at WoW then locking commensurate rewards behind commensurate difficulty of content. Not all Steve Smiths are going to circumvent WoW's vertical progression system by buying boosts. (In fact, this likely represents an incredibly small fraction of the active playerbase.) The existence of people buying boosts is not enough of an issue to simply throw one's hands in the air and say "fuck it, Mythic gear for everybody!"
    If people want to do challenging content, they do challenging content. Pushing players to do content they don't want to do doesn't make the game better. It makes the game worse. And you don't even believe your own argument because you think that it's awesome if Steve gets mythic gear by buying wow tokens. At least in my model Steve has to play the fucking game.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If people want to do challenging content, they do challenging content. Pushing players to do content they don't want to do doesn't make the game better. It makes the game worse. And you don't even believe your own argument because you think that it's awesome if Steve gets mythic gear by buying wow tokens. At least in my model Steve has to play the fucking game.
    I'm sorry but if you're playing WoW for anything other than the three pillars of content it excels at then is it really the game's fault you feel unsatisfied? I understand the argument that broadening the game's appeal is a net positive but I think WoW's devs have drawn a line in the sand that certain rewards should remain locked behind barriers which require you to get better at the game. I simply don't think being really fucking good at collecting 20 bear asses at a time is a skill that should be rewarded.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm sorry but if you're playing WoW for anything other than the three pillars of content it excels at then is it really the game's fault you feel unsatisfied? I understand the argument that broadening the game's appeal is a net positive but I think WoW's devs have drawn a line in the sand that certain rewards should remain locked behind barriers which require you to get better at the game. I simply don't think being really fucking good at collecting 20 bear asses at a time is a skill that should be rewarded.
    The rewards AREN'T locked behind barriers that require you to get better at the game. They are locked behind a PAYWALL.

    I'd rather reward someone for collecting 20 bear asses than swiping a credit card.

    Rewarding people for PLAYING THE GAME will ALWAYS be superior to rewarding them for paying real money. You cannot reconcile these things. There are two choices here:

    1. Players get the best gear for paying real money.
    2. Players get the best gear for playing the game.

    You emphatically endorse 1 over 2, and then pretend you are taking some kind of principle stance against rewarding people too much. It's absurd on its face.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The rewards AREN'T locked behind barriers that require you to get better at the game. They are locked behind a PAYWALL.

    I'd rather reward someone for collecting 20 bear asses than swiping a credit card.

    Rewarding people for PLAYING THE GAME will ALWAYS be superior to rewarding them for paying real money. You cannot reconcile these things. There are two choices here:

    1. Players get the best gear for paying real money.
    2. Players get the best gear for playing the game.

    You emphatically endorse 1 over 2, and then pretend you are taking some kind of principle stance against rewarding people too much. It's absurd on its face.
    I already addressed this but most players do not buy boosts so it is fundamentally incorrect to label WoW's current vertical progression system as a paywall. I also do not "support" players getting the best gear for money. I simply understand that no matter what there is a demographic of players who will seek out the best rewards for minimal effort. But this is a such a vanishingly small portion of the playerbase that it's barely worth acknowledging; it certainly shouldn't be used as leverage for game design which actively discourages players from improving themselves by providing rewards for mundane repeatable content. If the players in the latter category feel isolated then they're simply playing the wrong game and that isn't Blizzard's fault.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I already addressed this but most players do not buy boosts so it is fundamentally incorrect to label WoW's current vertical progression system as a paywall. I also do not "support" players getting the best gear for money. I simply understand that no matter what there is a demographic of players who will seek out the best rewards for minimal effort. But this is a such a vanishingly small portion of the playerbase that it's barely worth acknowledging; it certainly shouldn't be used as leverage for game design which actively discourages players from improving themselves by providing rewards for mundane repeatable content. If the players in the latter category feel isolated then they're simply playing the wrong game and that isn't Blizzard's fault.
    You aren't making any sense. You claim that the demographic that want the "best rewards for minimal effort" is "vanishingly small" and then you go right on to saying that easier rewards will discourage players from "improving themselves". Which is it? If the vast majority of players DON'T want "best rewards for minimal effort" then why should rewards for casual content cause problems? You are contradicting yourself all over the place here because it is impossible to reconcile the wow token with your phony principled stance on the reward structure.

    Not to mention that this whole notion of players being pushed to improve themselves is fundamentally nonsensical. If players enjoy doing challenging content, they will do challenging content. What you are saying is that players should be encouraged to do content they don't enjoy and that that will somehow make the game better.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #133
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard and Microsoft are both in the business of making less money.
    This has always been a shit take, always will be

    It's also disingenuous as fuck, a strawman, and why don't you just claim people against the WoW token's existence want to murder puppies?

    There's a distinct difference between a company making money because they're making a good, fun, engaging, and rewarding game - and a company that makes money by doing everything it can to squeeze money from its players like squeezing water from a stone.

    "But Blizzard is making a good game!" Sure.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You aren't making any sense. You claim that the demographic that want the "best rewards for minimal effort" is "vanishingly small" and then you go right on to saying that easier rewards will discourage players from "improving themselves". Which is it? If the vast majority of players DON'T want "best rewards for minimal effort" then why should rewards for casual content cause problems? You are contradicting yourself all over the place here because it is impossible to reconcile the wow token with your phony principled stance on the reward structure.

    Not to mention that this whole notion of players being pushed to improve themselves is fundamentally nonsensical. If players enjoy doing challenging content, they will do challenging content. What you are saying is that players should be encouraged to do content they don't enjoy and that that will somehow make the game better.
    Come on now. Do I really have to spell this out for you? The "vanishingly small" demographic I was referring to was those who buy boosts to circumvent WoW's vertical progression system. You're making an argument that Blizzard is intentionally designing the game to tell people that if they want to progress their gear, they need to buy a boost. Your support for this argument is that boosting exists. (It also operates on the flawed supposition that all gold from token sales is used to buy boosts.) My argument is that this is nonsense as most players choose to improve their skills and obtain the rewards locked behind commensurate difficulty content. Framing this as "forcing people into content they don't enjoy" is incorrect because, like I said, if you don't enjoy the content behind which WoW locks its best rewards then you're simply playing the wrong game.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    No it won't lmao.
    Yes it will, the games population has aged we aren't in college anymore most have significantly more limited time to play and there aren't many new players getting added anymore.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This has always been a shit take, always will be

    It's also disingenuous as fuck, a strawman, and why don't you just claim people against the WoW token's existence want to murder puppies?

    There's a distinct difference between a company making money because they're making a good, fun, engaging, and rewarding game - and a company that makes money by doing everything it can to squeeze money from its players like squeezing water from a stone.

    "But Blizzard is making a good game!" Sure.
    It doesn't bother me that people dislike the WoW token. It bothers me that people frame the WoW token as some kind of proof that Blizzard is the ultimate evil then use its existence to write off literally fucking anything the devs do or do not do.

    "Blizzard doesn't want to buff SPriests because they'd rather you buy a boost for {insert FotM here} instead."

    "Blizzard won't nerf {insert FotM here} because they want to sell boosts for people rerolling."

    "Blizzard made the content too difficult because they just want you to buy tokens for boosts."

    "Blizzard made the content too easy so more players get boosted."

    ...and any number of other nonsensical, completely contradictory claims as long as you can blame the token. It's frustrating and serves as a detour from legitimate criticism of the game. Instead of focusing on its many issues we leave the argument at "multi dollar company operates in a fashion which maximizes profits" throw our hands in the air and pretend that this surface level rebuke is enough for the devs to enact any meaningful change.

  17. #137
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You missed his point entirely.

    You made a claim about the game being at "the lowest sub rates ever":


    And you haven't provided any evidence to back that up.
    Hey homie, I think you're quoting the wrong person?

    Or i'm completely missing the point you're trying to make, since it seems you're agreeing with my point versus who I quoted?
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You aren't making any sense. You claim that the demographic that want the "best rewards for minimal effort" is "vanishingly small" and then you go right on to saying that easier rewards will discourage players from "improving themselves". Which is it? If the vast majority of players DON'T want "best rewards for minimal effort" then why should rewards for casual content cause problems? You are contradicting yourself all over the place here because it is impossible to reconcile the wow token with your phony principled stance on the reward structure.

    Not to mention that this whole notion of players being pushed to improve themselves is fundamentally nonsensical. If players enjoy doing challenging content, they will do challenging content. What you are saying is that players should be encouraged to do content they don't enjoy and that that will somehow make the game better.
    I mean, that's not how things work across gaming. The power of rewards has been proven many, many times. To use an easy example, there's a reason Elden Ring gives the player a reward at basically every location of note once they kill the local boss. Most of the time your build won't actually use the reward but you still got one so it's satisfying. There's a reason it seems like darn near every game on the market has some sort of progression system now. There's a reason mobile games and their easy dopamine rushes are so popular. People like getting the shinnies, it grants them motivation. You're not just doing the thing, you're doing the thing for X, and this game has encouraged that from the very first day it launched. This of course is what motivates boosting in the first place, people wanting the shinnies, be they gear or cosmetics but not having the time/skill to do it themselves.

    Upending this entire scheme is certainly possible, but I don't see why it would be particularly desirable after more than 15 years of this formula producing the biggest MMO on the market. For my own part I'd much rather the gear climb stays as it is, motivating me to do higher keys and (crucially) everyone in my guild to progress in Heroic, then a bit of Mythic. If the "cost" of that is people I don't know buying similar power from other people I don't know, exactly why should I give a shit?
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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    I don't have to. The onus is on the individual who made such outlandish claims to prove themselves correct. That's how that works.

    If I made a comment saying that, for example, 'Around 5am on Saturday, the Sky was a bright purple and meteor showers fell from the heavens where God decided to piss on all of us', it would be up to *me* to provide data and facts as to my statement. Since I'm the one trying to convince all of you (a general statement) of the facts behind what I said.

    Anyone can make wildly inaccurate statements without any actual proof.

    That's just pretty common(???) sense.
    So just to be clear, if someone else makes a claim, they have to back it up with facts, but you can make a claim about wows sub numbers being the lowest of all time without any facts to support it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Chinese gold farmers would've harmed the game more.
    It's just a matter of easiness and convenienve boosting communities provide. Going through shady third party sites and no guarantee of not getting scammed, harder communication and risk of being banned.

    Communities have solved all these problems also being basically in "the clear" (officially is all in game currency trading) amd the much more focus on required achievements/scores makes boosting a really good way to play the game.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

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