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  1. #141
    People who get sad they are not great in the game, should just uninstall the game and play single player games, instead of wasting money on others so they can pretend to yet others that they supposedly are better in the game than they are.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    People who get sad they are not great in the game, should just uninstall the game and play single player games, instead of wasting money on others so they can pretend to yet others that they supposedly are better in the game than they are.
    This would be a death sentence for the game, you know.

    The game is a Ponzi scheme of the ego, so perhaps this is inevitable.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This would be a death sentence for the game, you know.

    The game is a Ponzi scheme of the ego, so perhaps this is inevitable.
    I'm giving them an out. If you don't enjoy the game just get out; it's pointless trying to convince others you are good by just paying if you don't like playing the hard parts legitimately yourself; actually good players are not going to believe you anyway and even if they did: most people are selfish anyway and they'd hate you so you wasted your money just to be hated.
    Go play some single player games instead; e.g. the latest meme game Stray is good; be a cat.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  4. #144
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    People who get sad they are not great in the game, should just uninstall the game and play single player games, instead of wasting money on others so they can pretend to yet others that they supposedly are better in the game than they are.
    You don't have to spend any money at all to pretend to others that you are supposedly better in the game than they are. You can see it here for free every single day in most threads. God knows, there's little enough of that visible in the game itself.

    I think a lot of people enjoy the game a lot more than you imagine. You won't see them here necessarily. You won't even see them much in the game itself. They play alone or with friends or quietly dip into LFR once in a while and maybe do normal/heroic dungeons. Some of them find a social guild and are happy enough there picking and choosing what they want to do.

    They aren't all that interested in organized raiding or high-level M+ stuff. They aren't great players but if they find themselves not having fun in the game I'm pretty sure they can decide for themselves whether or not to stay or leave without arrogant assholes advising them to go elsewhere. They won't see those sorts here because they don't visit forums (although they might visit a site like Icy Veins for a class guide. They certainly won't find one here.) You won't get much of a chance to see many of them in the game either as many of them avoid anything that smacks of elitist BS. They're not wrong and there's very little evidence despite the hysterics you see here all the time that they're spending any money to buy boosts. I know some of these people. I play with them. They think most of this crap is laughable. They're a lot more likely to drop some money on the store for a plushie and if they invest in a token it's because they want some gold in their bags.

    You're so generous and not condescending at all to offer them an out. Don't be offended if they don't take you up on the offer. They are doing just fine.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-08-07 at 08:25 AM.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Being uneducated in internet safety is on you the user not Blizzard.

    People need to stop being in denial of the fact that it is not healthy for the game to keep the token. There are anti-cheat/anti-bot methods that are modern that work as well so that isn't an issue.
    Its on Blizzard to deal with the fallout tho
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It is if you are making a business out of it and some people see community groups as organizations, hence the big move to guilds but even then, it is restricted how you wish to operate. It as well is if you don't follow the right rules for advertisement.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Selling in-game items and services such as carries or boosting for real money is not allowed.

    Individuals and guilds selling items and services for gold is allowed but can only be advertised in-game through the Trade chat channel. Advertisements are not allowed in the Group Finder. The Group Finder is intended to help players find active groups that are being formed and advertisements make it difficult to find relevant groups.

    Organizations who offer boosting, matchmaking, escrow, or other non-traditional services, including those offered for gold are prohibited, especially those who operate across multiple realms.

    Accounts that are used for the primary purpose of advertising may be closed.

    (Source)
    Still not against the rules to sell anything for gold ingame. what they do with the gold after is something else and not corralated to the boosting for gold. also the "rmt" is not done by the boosting but the individuals who are paid in gold after, hense why the gold part isnt banned but what they decide to do on their own is something else.
    Last edited by danki1337; 2022-08-07 at 08:40 AM.

  7. #147
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    That literally says for real money. I know this might shock you but gold isn't real money.
    You missed the part I see?

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Organizations who offer boosting, matchmaking, escrow, or other non-traditional services, including those offered for gold are prohibited
    A boosting community can be seen as an organization.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by danki1337 View Post
    Still not against the rules to sell anything for gold ingame. what they do with the gold after is something else and not corralated to the boosting for gold. also the "rmt" is not done by the boosting but the individuals who are paid in gold after, hense why the gold part isnt banned but what they decide to do on their own is something else.
    Not against the rules for guilds and individuals to offer boosts for gold, not organizations and businesses. I know, you might miss it, but communities can count as organizations.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yes it will, the games population has aged we aren't in college anymore most have significantly more limited time to play and there aren't many new players getting added anymore.
    There will be once they add the subscription to gamepass and I'm telling you it's an inevitability before that happens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Its on Blizzard to deal with the fallout tho
    It sure is but you can't nerf the world because people are retarded, that's why we have all these overcorrections in society now and people can't even discipline their own kids and shit like that any more without people freaking out at them.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    There will be once they add the subscription to gamepass and I'm telling you it's an inevitability before that happens.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It sure is but you can't nerf the world because people are retarded, that's why we have all these overcorrections in society now and people can't even discipline their own kids and shit like that any more without people freaking out at them.
    Welcome to capitalism. Its more cost efficient for Blizzard to offer a legal RMT through tokens then paying for the customer support needed to deal with accounts getting hacked and stolen credit cards fuelling black market RMT.
    Nothing to do with the world being to 'woke'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Come on now. Do I really have to spell this out for you? The "vanishingly small" demographic I was referring to was those who buy boosts to circumvent WoW's vertical progression system. You're making an argument that Blizzard is intentionally designing the game to tell people that if they want to progress their gear, they need to buy a boost. Your support for this argument is that boosting exists. (It also operates on the flawed supposition that all gold from token sales is used to buy boosts.) My argument is that this is nonsense as most players choose to improve their skills and obtain the rewards locked behind commensurate difficulty content. Framing this as "forcing people into content they don't enjoy" is incorrect because, like I said, if you don't enjoy the content behind which WoW locks its best rewards then you're simply playing the wrong game.
    Most players do not choose to improve their skills. You have no evidence to support that claim. The vanishingly small number of players that participate in the most challenging content runs counter to your claim.

    People do the content they find fun, or they feel pressured to do content they don’t find fun and it makes the game worse for them. Your argument makes as much sense as saying that we should lock mythic raids behind getting a high arena ranking. Wouldn’t that prove that those players are the best because they’d have to be good at pvp and pve? No, it would make players upset that they are forced to do content they don’t want to do. You are not an idiot, I know you already understand this, so I don’t know why you engage in dishonest arguments.

    There is absolutely no coherence to your argument as long as you continue to say that giving players progression based on swiping their credit card is preferable to giving them progression based on playing the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, that's not how things work across gaming. The power of rewards has been proven many, many times. To use an easy example, there's a reason Elden Ring gives the player a reward at basically every location of note once they kill the local boss. Most of the time your build won't actually use the reward but you still got one so it's satisfying. There's a reason it seems like darn near every game on the market has some sort of progression system now. There's a reason mobile games and their easy dopamine rushes are so popular. People like getting the shinnies, it grants them motivation. You're not just doing the thing, you're doing the thing for X, and this game has encouraged that from the very first day it launched. This of course is what motivates boosting in the first place, people wanting the shinnies, be they gear or cosmetics but not having the time/skill to do it themselves.

    Upending this entire scheme is certainly possible, but I don't see why it would be particularly desirable after more than 15 years of this formula producing the biggest MMO on the market. For my own part I'd much rather the gear climb stays as it is, motivating me to do higher keys and (crucially) everyone in my guild to progress in Heroic, then a bit of Mythic. If the "cost" of that is people I don't know buying similar power from other people I don't know, exactly why should I give a shit?
    Which is it? Is other players getting power they didn’t earn bad or is it trivial? You can’t argue both at once. It can’t upset you if someone can progress through casual content but then be perfectly fine if they can progress by swiping a credit card. That is incoherent.

  11. #151
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So just to be clear, if someone else makes a claim, they have to back it up with facts, but you can make a claim about wows sub numbers being the lowest of all time without any facts to support it?
    You clearly don't understand how any of this works.

    Person A: *Makes Outlandish Claim w/ no facts to back it up*

    Person B: "Do you have any facts to back up your outlandish claim?"

    Person A slaps down a Reverse Card from Uno: "YOU have to provide facts, not me!"

    Do you still not understand how absolutely batshit insane your statement and line of reasoning is? If Person A makes a claim, it's on them to back up said claim with information, facts, and truths, not opinions or emotions.

    Wait wait wait wait wait.

    Dude, I NEVER MADE THE CLAIM ABOUT WOW'S SUB NUMBRS BEING LOWEST OF ALL TIME. REREAD THE QUOTE THREAD, PLEASETHANKS.

    The actual fuck?
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    Which is it? Is other players getting power they didn’t earn bad or is it trivial? You can’t argue both at once. It can’t upset you if someone can progress through casual content but then be perfectly fine if they can progress by swiping a credit card. That is incoherent.
    That argument is indeed incoherent- because you conjured it out of thin air to feel like you scored a gotcha. I never said casual players shouldn't have progression or that boosting is good; I specifically called out the idea that higher tiers of content shouldn't offer good rewards and that people who like it should just do it for no added reason. Anything else is your bias seeing things that are not there.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Welcome to capitalism. Its more cost efficient for Blizzard to offer a legal RMT through tokens then paying for the customer support needed to deal with accounts getting hacked and stolen credit cards fuelling black market RMT.
    Nothing to do with the world being to 'woke'.
    It won't matter the wow sub is going to be added to gamepass and when that happens they're not going to have the token it's just a matter of time.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That argument is indeed incoherent- because you conjured it out of thin air to feel like you scored a gotcha. I never said casual players shouldn't have progression or that boosting is good; I specifically called out the idea that higher tiers of content shouldn't offer good rewards and that people who like it should just do it for no added reason. Anything else is your bias seeing things that are not there.
    I never said that higher tiers of content shouldn't offer good rewards. What the hell are you talking about? Don't put words in my mouth and then whine that I misinterpreted you misrepresenting me.,

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It won't matter the wow sub is going to be added to gamepass and when that happens they're not going to have the token it's just a matter of time.
    you keep saying that as if that makes its true.
    It doesn't.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    you keep saying that as if that makes its true.
    It doesn't.
    It's the only decision Microsoft can do that makes sense. They're gonna retire battle.net and force everyone on to gamepass and that will be it. It will take about 4 years.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Most players do not choose to improve their skills. You have no evidence to support that claim. The vanishingly small number of players that participate in the most challenging content runs counter to your claim.

    People do the content they find fun, or they feel pressured to do content they don’t find fun and it makes the game worse for them. Your argument makes as much sense as saying that we should lock mythic raids behind getting a high arena ranking. Wouldn’t that prove that those players are the best because they’d have to be good at pvp and pve? No, it would make players upset that they are forced to do content they don’t want to do. You are not an idiot, I know you already understand this, so I don’t know why you engage in dishonest arguments.

    There is absolutely no coherence to your argument as long as you continue to say that giving players progression based on swiping their credit card is preferable to giving them progression based on playing the game.
    Participation in the absolute hardest content is small as it always has been. But the argument I'm making isn't that all players should strive to be high M+ key pushers, Arena Gods or Mythic raiders. Heroic and Normal raid participation levels are healthy and there are millions upon millions of M+ dungeons run every season. PvP content is just as popular as it always has been. The three pillars of WoW's content reward systems are working as intended. You're assuming that players need to get the absolute best gear in the game to satisfy themselves and it seems to me that most players are perfectly content with reaching the rewards for their skill ceiling then moving on with their lives. You're also insisting that there exists a significant portion of WoW's playerbase that doesn't engage with any of the three pillars of its content rewards system and if these players do not receive commensurate rewards on the same level of those who do engage with this content that they will quit. For me, this is fine because these players are playing the wrong game. (I do not believe this demographic is nearly as big as you seem to think it is.)

    Moreover, this idea that people reach their skill cap then bust out a credit card is both incredibly cynical and impossible to ever prove or disprove. I'm not discounting the fact that some players do this (and some may even buy a token to do it), but I just cannot buy the narrative that this demographic represents a significant portion of the playerbase.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I never said that higher tiers of content shouldn't offer good rewards. What the hell are you talking about? Don't put words in my mouth and then whine that I misinterpreted you misrepresenting me.,
    There aren't very many ways to interpret "if players want to do challenging content, they do challenging content". At best it means they do the challenging content for the same reward as everyone else- and that's not the structure WoW follows, or that very many games follow. Greater challenges, greater rewards. Yes boosting exist, yes it's a problem, yes it feeds off this model, yes more should be done to combat it, yes a longer-term progression path for more casual player should be introduced (Valor upgrades are one good way, or the current currency off bosses in S4).

    But throwing the baby out with the bathwater because of the pet issue of some players is not the way to fix the game nor will it even make boosting go away by a long shot. Boosting feeds a lot out of the "I want it NOW" sentiment, introducing a longer-term progression path might slow it down but won't be even close to stopping it. Basically the only way to meaningfully stop boosting would be to hand out all rewards to everyone for no or minimal effort AND time invested- and not only is that not the business model of this MMO, it certainly wouldn't be good game design from where I stand.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It's the only decision Microsoft can do that makes sense. They're gonna retire battle.net and force everyone on to gamepass and that will be it. It will take about 4 years.
    sure grandma, now let's get you to bed
    MS. MARVEL will return in The Marvels ✨

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Most players do not choose to improve their skills. You have no evidence to support that claim. The vanishingly small number of players that participate in the most challenging content runs counter to your claim.
    Out of all people in the world who've ever played football (even as kids), how many do you think play it on the highest level?

    The % of people who are best in any given thing is always astonishingly small. The best of the best up the bar for a small number of people who are capable of competing, leaving everyone else behind. That's exactly how we even got Mythic raids in WoW. If a big % of WoW players would be able to complete hardest content, it would make said content trivial for the best of the best. Why? See above. Does Blizzard cater to the best of the best? I think 9.2 tuning is a pretty obvious answer. Not many people participating in the hardest content works exactly as intended. No amount of new players coming to the game will ever change that, because no matter how many people try out WoW (or come back), the % of those who are able to play on the highest level will be still astonishingly small. Not because people don't want to or refuse to improve, but because most people in the world are incapable of being BEST, no matter how much they try. It doesn't matter how much work you put into trying to run as fast as you can, chances are, you're not turning into Usain Bolt, ever.

    And Blizzard designs bosses that take hundreds of tries for THE BEST OF THE BEST. What's your chance to compete? Go figure.

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