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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Out of all people in the world who've ever played football (even as kids), how many do you think play it on the highest level?

    The % of people who are best in any given thing is always astonishingly small. The best of the best up the bar for a small number of people who are capable of competing, leaving everyone else behind. That's exactly how we even got Mythic raids in WoW. If a big % of WoW players would be able to complete hardest content, it would make said content trivial for the best of the best. Why? See above. Does Blizzard cater to the best of the best? I think 9.2 tuning is a pretty obvious answer. Not many people participating in the hardest content works exactly as intended. No amount of new players coming to the game will ever change that, because no matter how many people try out WoW (or come back), the % of those who are able to play on the highest level will be still astonishingly small. Not because people don't want to or refuse to improve, but because most people in the world are incapable of being BEST, no matter how much they try. It doesn't matter how much work you put into trying to run as fast as you can, chances are, you're not turning into Usain Bolt, ever.

    And Blizzard designs bosses that take hundreds of tries for THE BEST OF THE BEST. What's your chance to compete? Go figure.
    So... you agree with me what locking progression behind challenging content does not change who enjoys doing challenging content?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    There aren't very many ways to interpret "if players want to do challenging content, they do challenging content". At best it means they do the challenging content for the same reward as everyone else- and that's not the structure WoW follows, or that very many games follow. Greater challenges, greater rewards. Yes boosting exist, yes it's a problem, yes it feeds off this model, yes more should be done to combat it, yes a longer-term progression path for more casual player should be introduced (Valor upgrades are one good way, or the current currency off bosses in S4).

    But throwing the baby out with the bathwater because of the pet issue of some players is not the way to fix the game nor will it even make boosting go away by a long shot. Boosting feeds a lot out of the "I want it NOW" sentiment, introducing a longer-term progression path might slow it down but won't be even close to stopping it. Basically the only way to meaningfully stop boosting would be to hand out all rewards to everyone for no or minimal effort AND time invested- and not only is that not the business model of this MMO, it certainly wouldn't be good game design from where I stand.
    The way you should interpret "if players want to do challenging content, they do challenging content" is by reading exactly what it says, not trying to draw some giant thesis I never made out of it just so you can finally have the argument you've been rehearsing to yourself for too long.

    I'm literally arguing for exactly what you suggested: "a longer-term progression path for more casual player should be introduced". That's it, but you are so rock hard to have an argument that you are acting like we disagree.

    Boosting in FF14 is a virtually non-existent thing. Same for Destiny 2. It is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what we see in WoW. Why? Because those games provide a substantive path forward for players who don't do enjoy challenging content. WoW is built to encourage players to buy tokens so they can buy boosts. That's the structure of the game. It's how they have monetized the game. All the incentives now are too put as many walls up as possible so that players feel compelled to swipe that credit card. If you give people progression paths, they won't do that nearly as often.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So... you agree with me what locking progression behind challenging content does not change who enjoys doing challenging content?
    I didn't comment on it at all, I just disagree that "vanishingly small number of players that participate in the most challenging content" proves that "most players do not choose to improve their skill".

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Participation in the absolute hardest content is small as it always has been. But the argument I'm making isn't that all players should strive to be high M+ key pushers, Arena Gods or Mythic raiders. Heroic and Normal raid participation levels are healthy and there are millions upon millions of M+ dungeons run every season. PvP content is just as popular as it always has been. The three pillars of WoW's content reward systems are working as intended. You're assuming that players need to get the absolute best gear in the game to satisfy themselves and it seems to me that most players are perfectly content with reaching the rewards for their skill ceiling then moving on with their lives. You're also insisting that there exists a significant portion of WoW's playerbase that doesn't engage with any of the three pillars of its content rewards system and if these players do not receive commensurate rewards on the same level of those who do engage with this content that they will quit. For me, this is fine because these players are playing the wrong game. (I do not believe this demographic is nearly as big as you seem to think it is.)

    Moreover, this idea that people reach their skill cap then bust out a credit card is both incredibly cynical and impossible to ever prove or disprove. I'm not discounting the fact that some players do this (and some may even buy a token to do it), but I just cannot buy the narrative that this demographic represents a significant portion of the playerbase.
    You have rambled your way into a totally different topic. We agree that boosting is lame and bad for the game. The question here is which solution to boosting is better:

    1. Power progression paths for casual players.
    2. Real money transactions.

    You are clearly stating that you prefer number 2 while decrying number 1 as wrong because people shouldn't get rewards they don't deserve. It is fundamentally nonsensical at its core. You can't have it both ways, and appealing to your fan fiction statistics of how few people pay for boosts is meaningless. You think its better for rewards to be behind paywall than be behind playing casual content, so drop the phony moral high ground act. You believe pay to win is preferable to play the fucking game, so lecturing everyone else on who deserves what is laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I didn't comment on it at all, I just disagree that "vanishingly small number of players that participate in the most challenging content" proves that "most players do not choose to improve their skill".
    Only about 20% of players even do normal raids. About 50% do at least one M+ in a season. Normal raids are not harder than the average video game, and neither are low M+. This is relatively simple content than anyone with a pulse, two hands, and a couple of hours of time can do. Players simply choose not to, because they don't like doing it. Locking gear progression behind that content just means that of those relatively embarrassingly small number of players that do the content, some of them aren't even there because they like doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    And Blizzard designs bosses that take hundreds of tries for THE BEST OF THE BEST. What's your chance to compete? Go figure.
    I also should have mentioned, the most recent Ultimate raid in FF14 took more than twice as many pulls for world first as Mythic Jailer did. Yet FF14 does not have anywhere near the boosting issue WoW does. I wonder why?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Only about 20% of players even do normal raids. About 50% do at least one M+ in a season. Normal raids are not harder than the average video game, and neither are low M+. This is relatively simple content than anyone with a pulse, two hands, and a couple of hours of time can do. Players simply choose not to, because they don't like doing it. Locking gear progression behind that content just means that of those relatively embarrassingly small number of players that do the content, some of them aren't even there because they like doing it.
    I'd argue it has less to do with difficulty, and more to do with the fact that many people do not enjoy to participate in multiplayer content/interact with other people. There are many players who are content to play WoW as a "solo" game; for many others LFR/random matchmaking is the only acceptable form of "multiplaying".

  5. #165
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    At best it means they do the challenging content for the same reward as everyone else- and that's not the structure WoW follows, or that very many games follow. Greater challenges, greater rewards.
    I've challenged this assertion before and have yet to be provided the never-ending list of games that reward better *anything* for higher levels of difficulty, other than the satisfaction of having completed the game on a higher difficulty. In fact, I propose that most video games actually give you *less* at higher difficulties, in order to make it, y'know, more difficult.

    Fortnite gives you the same random gear as anyone else in the game with no regard for how good you or your opponents are. The newest scrub playing their first game can land right on top of the best legendary weapon in the game within seconds while the best player in the world might land on a grey piece of corn.

    Mario Kart not only does not reward you for being better, it actually gives you the best items in the game the more you suck at it. First place does not get blue shells.

    Single player RPG's and FPS's give you better items on easy difficulty to help you along and severely restrict healing and other gear in the game itself when you play on harder difficulties. Because the point of harder difficulty is to be challenged, not to have your ego fluffed with shiny objects.

    Outside of MMOs, and WoW in particular, this idea of rewarding harder difficulty with more in-game power just does not hold true. It's a creation of games like EQ and WoW where the developers wanted to puff up the ego of the players in the more difficult content because that's what those developers enjoyed and wanted to encourage. So they bribe people.

    And if you are bribing players into content that they're not really interested in, then eventually in a multiplayer game people will offer to "boost" others for some form of recompense and people will happily pay them. Blizzard is becoming the king of pay-for-power, it's become their entire game design philosophy and it's spreading from WoW to their other titles, such as Diablo Immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Only about 20% of players even do normal raids. About 50% do at least one M+ in a season. Normal raids are not harder than the average video game, and neither are low M+.
    In fairness, the low participation numbers in organized content do lend to the idea that boosting is not as bad of a problem as some might surmise it to be. If boosting was as rampant as some like to think it is then those numbers would undoubtedly be higher.

    Of course, that's not a good look for that content, either, considering that some decent percentage of that 20 or 50% is, indeed, people being boosted. That means the number of people running the content because they actually enjoy it is even smaller than we might think.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    In fairness, the low participation numbers in organized content do lend to the idea that boosting is not as bad of a problem as some might surmise it to be. If boosting was as rampant as some like to think it is then those numbers would undoubtedly be higher.

    Of course, that's not a good look for that content, either, considering that some decent percentage of that 20 or 50% is, indeed, people being boosted. That means the number of people running the content because they actually enjoy it is even smaller than we might think.
    Within those percentages you have two groups that aren't there because the content is fun:

    1. People who do it begrudgingly just for the rewards because of an addiction issue.
    2. People who get boosted.

    It's impossible to know how many people make that up, but it can't be that small. This means we are left with the game being centered around content that only a handful of people are actually having fun doing. And what do people do when they are addicted to doing something that isn't fun? A very common coping mechanism is to aggressively defend the thing they are addicted to. What do we see a lot of happening on this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I'd argue it has less to do with difficulty, and more to do with the fact that many people do not enjoy to participate in multiplayer content/interact with other people. There are many players who are content to play WoW as a "solo" game; for many others LFR/random matchmaking is the only acceptable form of "multiplaying".
    I don't think the group of players who only want to solo and don't even like matchmake activities is large enough to even warrant talking about. Virtually everyone is fine with matchmaking activities as long as the difficulty level isn't such that it causes toxic behavior.

    When we talk about WoW, "challenging content" and "group challenging content" mean the same thing 99.9% of the time, so whenever I say "challenging content" I'm considering the group dynamics in the equation.

    I know plenty of people that like to do challenging group content in other games but hate it in WoW, myself included, and I used to love it in WoW. Now, I greatly prefer the model other games like FF14 and Destiny 2 use. WoW's way of designing content has become increasingly obtuse and arbitrary over the years. I find that really frustrating and unfun. I want mechanics to reflect the themes of the boss, and most of the time in WoW the mechanics are just random shit thrown together with a thematic coat of paint on it. It didn't used to be this way, but the difficulty arms race created this problem. Just look at M+. While dungeon mechanics tend to me more thematic than raid mechanics these days, M+ is larded up with arbitrary difficulty modifiers, with only the seasonal one being remotely thematic.

    The bottom line is that there are a handful of people that think arbitrary difficulty is really fun, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but they have this tendency to extrapolate their niche interest onto everyone and think everyone just wants to be like them but can't hack it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #167
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It bothers me that people frame the WoW token as some kind of proof that Blizzard is the ultimate evil then use its existence to write off literally fucking anything the devs do or do not do.
    This is why your takes are almost universally bad. Hyperbole.

    Nobody has said any of this. This is you using hyperbole to make the other side look worse.

    It's not exactly a secret that the WoW token is a byproduct of corporate greed. Claims that it effectively combatted illegitimate gold sales are HILARIOUSLY FALSE. With boosting being more prevalent than ever, third party gold sellers have been more successful than ever, being able to sell gold more cheaply. Last I logged in, I was bombarded with gold seller spam. Something I haven't experienced in other MMOs save in extremely limited quantities.

    But that leads into my next point, that anyone who claims Blizzard has effectively combatted bots and gold sellers better than any other MMO is only a take someone who only plays WoW could come up with. Other MMOs have successfully combatted gold sellers and bots by JUST BANNING THEM. Yes, quite simple. And despite your claims that Blizzard would have to "hire thousands of people" to accomplish this (maybe they would, I dunno, they do like to hire people with no idea how to do their job for grunt work like the Diablo Immortal customer service reps) others do it with a tiny crew. It's not exactly hard to recognize and investigate bots, nor is it difficult to have GMs respond to tickets about gold sellers and be able to ban them instantly. Blizzard seems to have a huge problem doing these two things, as sellers/botters reported by the community in WoW stick around for weeks or even months.

    So that little tangent that the WoW token stops botting and gold selling is just... pffffffffft, ahahaha.

    But no, Blizzard is not this evil entity. If I didn't know better, I'd say they were incompetence. But we all know the botters bring in huge revenue for Blizzard, some even owning hundreds of accounts at a time and paying for boosts because it's more time efficient than leveling a character. They get a few months of sub off the bot before they finally ban it, and then the botters instantly start a new account, buy a bunch of boosts, and the cycle continues.

    It's greed, pure and simple. Profit is taking incentive over the quality and spirit of the game. The WoW token is a thinly veiled excuse at fighting botting and gold selling, when in reality it's nothing more than Blizzard seeing there being a huge market in gold selling and wanting in on the action themselves. Ultimate evil? Nah. Just greedy design decisions.

    I already see you screaming "PROOF" and this topic has been covered ad infinitum, more proof than you could ever want is right there, and you always hand wave it away. So no, I don't care if you believe what is happening right in front of you. Everyone else sees it but you and a few others.

    But @Relapses, why do you murder puppies, steal candy from children, shoot holes in signs, and are just in general a bad person? MAN HYPERBOLE IS FUN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Moreover, this idea that people reach their skill cap then bust out a credit card is both incredibly cynical and impossible to ever prove or disprove. I'm not discounting the fact that some players do this (and some may even buy a token to do it), but I just cannot buy the narrative that this demographic represents a significant portion of the playerbase.
    Here's a little hint for you, something that makes sense once you hear it.

    Why do scam callers still exist? Why are simple scams that you feel like NOBODY WOULD EVER FALL FOR still exist and are more abundant than ever. Because they do work, and they're incredibly lucrative.

    Boosting has always existed. Why is demand for boosting higher than ever? How did these communities go from forums with a couple of hundred people to Discords with thousands (and even tens of thousands) of people on them?

    I'm sure it's TOTALLY because people just enjoy chatting in those discords and not because boosting services have become the go-to for many people.

    You're a smart boy. I'd say you could arrive at the answer to these questions in your own head, but I foresee your consciousness rejecting these as real, and you either giving a non-response or a bad answer.

    I also watched a video on the analysis of this, and how the numbers of players who have only killed the last boss on mythic have exploded in the last few years, but I CBA to go find it again, so I wasn't going to use it as part of the proof. It's far more simple to just (try to) make you use your brain.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This is why your takes are almost universally bad. Hyperbole.

    Nobody has said any of this. This is you using hyperbole to make the other side look worse.

    It's not exactly a secret that the WoW token is a byproduct of corporate greed. Claims that it effectively combatted illegitimate gold sales are HILARIOUSLY FALSE. With boosting being more prevalent than ever, third party gold sellers have been more successful than ever, being able to sell gold more cheaply. Last I logged in, I was bombarded with gold seller spam. Something I haven't experienced in other MMOs save in extremely limited quantities.

    But that leads into my next point, that anyone who claims Blizzard has effectively combatted bots and gold sellers better than any other MMO is only a take someone who only plays WoW could come up with. Other MMOs have successfully combatted gold sellers and bots by JUST BANNING THEM. Yes, quite simple. And despite your claims that Blizzard would have to "hire thousands of people" to accomplish this (maybe they would, I dunno, they do like to hire people with no idea how to do their job for grunt work like the Diablo Immortal customer service reps) others do it with a tiny crew. It's not exactly hard to recognize and investigate bots, nor is it difficult to have GMs respond to tickets about gold sellers and be able to ban them instantly. Blizzard seems to have a huge problem doing these two things, as sellers/botters reported by the community in WoW stick around for weeks or even months.

    So that little tangent that the WoW token stops botting and gold selling is just... pffffffffft, ahahaha.

    But no, Blizzard is not this evil entity. If I didn't know better, I'd say they were incompetence. But we all know the botters bring in huge revenue for Blizzard, some even owning hundreds of accounts at a time and paying for boosts because it's more time efficient than leveling a character. They get a few months of sub off the bot before they finally ban it, and then the botters instantly start a new account, buy a bunch of boosts, and the cycle continues.

    It's greed, pure and simple. Profit is taking incentive over the quality and spirit of the game. The WoW token is a thinly veiled excuse at fighting botting and gold selling, when in reality it's nothing more than Blizzard seeing there being a huge market in gold selling and wanting in on the action themselves. Ultimate evil? Nah. Just greedy design decisions.

    I already see you screaming "PROOF" and this topic has been covered ad infinitum, more proof than you could ever want is right there, and you always hand wave it away. So no, I don't care if you believe what is happening right in front of you. Everyone else sees it but you and a few others.

    But @Relapses, why do you murder puppies, steal candy from children, shoot holes in signs, and are just in general a bad person? MAN HYPERBOLE IS FUN.

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    Here's a little hint for you, something that makes sense once you hear it.

    Why do scam callers still exist? Why are simple scams that you feel like NOBODY WOULD EVER FALL FOR still exist and are more abundant than ever. Because they do work, and they're incredibly lucrative.

    Boosting has always existed. Why is demand for boosting higher than ever? How did these communities go from forums with a couple of hundred people to Discords with thousands (and even tens of thousands) of people on them?

    I'm sure it's TOTALLY because people just enjoy chatting in those discords and not because boosting services have become the go-to for many people.

    You're a smart boy. I'd say you could arrive at the answer to these questions in your own head, but I foresee your consciousness rejecting these as real, and you either giving a non-response or a bad answer.

    I also watched a video on the analysis of this, and how the numbers of players who have only killed the last boss on mythic have exploded in the last few years, but I CBA to go find it again, so I wasn't going to use it as part of the proof. It's far more simple to just (try to) make you use your brain.
    I love how you criticize someone for hyperbole, while then 1-upping them by making a post filled, not only with hyperbole, but anecdotal evidence and conjecture.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I love how you criticize someone for hyperbole, while then 1-upping them by making a post filled, not only with hyperbole, but anecdotal evidence and conjecture.
    Considering everything they said is 100% accurate, I wouldn't call it hyperbole.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So... you agree with me what locking progression behind challenging content does not change who enjoys doing challenging content?

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    The way you should interpret "if players want to do challenging content, they do challenging content" is by reading exactly what it says, not trying to draw some giant thesis I never made out of it just so you can finally have the argument you've been rehearsing to yourself for too long.

    I'm literally arguing for exactly what you suggested: "a longer-term progression path for more casual player should be introduced". That's it, but you are so rock hard to have an argument that you are acting like we disagree.

    Boosting in FF14 is a virtually non-existent thing. Same for Destiny 2. It is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what we see in WoW. Why? Because those games provide a substantive path forward for players who don't do enjoy challenging content. WoW is built to encourage players to buy tokens so they can buy boosts. That's the structure of the game. It's how they have monetized the game. All the incentives now are too put as many walls up as possible so that players feel compelled to swipe that credit card. If you give people progression paths, they won't do that nearly as often.
    You literally say it's a bad thing to "lock" progression behind challenge. How is one supposed to interpret that as anything but you wanting everyone on the same footing regardless of how challenging the content they do is?

    I don't play FF14 but from what I heard from someone who does, the casual progression is over quite fast. You get good gear from queueing LFR or at most Normal type raids, after that it's Heroic+ which is technically queueable but really mostly done by organized groups so it doesn't seem to count as "casual" progression anymore. That's not too different from, for example, Season 3 where open world quickly gets you Normal-equivalent gear then you need M+, Normal or PvP to get ahead. Or S4 where LFR nets you BiS Normal-equivalent items.

    I did play Destiny 2 and among other things, the meh reward scheme is why I stopped. I did like the Exotic hunts a lot, that's the real cool bit. After that, progression was just boring as I really didn't like the raids in that game and Nightfalls were a worse version of M+ which really incremental upgrades. Maybe things have changed from 3 years ago, I dunno, but the D2 I played wasn't satisfying aside from Exotic quests which WoW kinda sorta has sometimes but could stand to emulate more.

    Correlation also does not equal causation RE amount of boosting. I don't know MMOs other than WoW enough to extrapolate on if and why there's less boosting there but what makes you able to say the disparity is for the reason you state and this reason only?
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You literally say it's a bad thing to "lock" progression behind challenge. How is one supposed to interpret that as anything but you wanting everyone on the same footing regardless of how challenging the content they do is?

    I don't play FF14 but from what I heard from someone who does, the casual progression is over quite fast. You get good gear from queueing LFR or at most Normal type raids, after that it's Heroic+ which is technically queueable but really mostly done by organized groups so it doesn't seem to count as "casual" progression anymore. That's not too different from, for example, Season 3 where open world quickly gets you Normal-equivalent gear then you need M+, Normal or PvP to get ahead. Or S4 where LFR nets you BiS Normal-equivalent items.

    I did play Destiny 2 and among other things, the meh reward scheme is why I stopped. I did like the Exotic hunts a lot, that's the real cool bit. After that, progression was just boring as I really didn't like the raids in that game and Nightfalls were a worse version of M+ which really incremental upgrades. Maybe things have changed from 3 years ago, I dunno, but the D2 I played wasn't satisfying aside from Exotic quests which WoW kinda sorta has sometimes but could stand to emulate more.

    Correlation also does not equal causation RE amount of boosting. I don't know MMOs other than WoW enough to extrapolate on if and why there's less boosting there but what makes you able to say the disparity is for the reason you state and this reason only?
    The reason boosting in other games is not as prevalent is because they don't take a borderline nonexistant approach to handling it. They will flat out ban accounts without hesitation. Whereas in WoW, most people just get a slap on the wirst. I mean, the higher ups in Blizzard sell boosts so why would they punish people for the same thing? Also, rewards in other games in high end activities are good but don't make you feel like they are absolutely needed to be competitive. Yet in WoW, all the best things are in activities that are sold by boosters.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I've challenged this assertion before and have yet to be provided the never-ending list of games that reward better *anything* for higher levels of difficulty, other than the satisfaction of having completed the game on a higher difficulty. In fact, I propose that most video games actually give you *less* at higher difficulties, in order to make it, y'know, more difficult.

    Fortnite gives you the same random gear as anyone else in the game with no regard for how good you or your opponents are. The newest scrub playing their first game can land right on top of the best legendary weapon in the game within seconds while the best player in the world might land on a grey piece of corn.

    Mario Kart not only does not reward you for being better, it actually gives you the best items in the game the more you suck at it. First place does not get blue shells.

    Single player RPG's and FPS's give you better items on easy difficulty to help you along and severely restrict healing and other gear in the game itself when you play on harder difficulties. Because the point of harder difficulty is to be challenged, not to have your ego fluffed with shiny objects.

    Outside of MMOs, and WoW in particular, this idea of rewarding harder difficulty with more in-game power just does not hold true. It's a creation of games like EQ and WoW where the developers wanted to puff up the ego of the players in the more difficult content because that's what those developers enjoyed and wanted to encourage. So they bribe people.

    And if you are bribing players into content that they're not really interested in, then eventually in a multiplayer game people will offer to "boost" others for some form of recompense and people will happily pay them. Blizzard is becoming the king of pay-for-power, it's become their entire game design philosophy and it's spreading from WoW to their other titles, such as Diablo Immortal.

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    In fairness, the low participation numbers in organized content do lend to the idea that boosting is not as bad of a problem as some might surmise it to be. If boosting was as rampant as some like to think it is then those numbers would undoubtedly be higher.

    .
    Off the top of my head of my head, for funsies, and ignoring cosmetics/achievements as a matter of course because I'd literally be here all day;

    -Doom Eternal gives you additional tokens and such from harder, optional challenges. Original game also gave you more ammo if you were playing on Nightmare.

    -Forza Horizon series grants additional XP/currency if you pump up the difficulty, such as by removing driving assists.

    -Hades has later tiers of progression locked behind Pact of Punishment.

    -Dragon Age Origins has items exclusive to harder modes, especially in DLCs.

    -Doing higher difficulties in Vermintide 2 gets you far better loot rolls at the end of a run

    -Bringing the light levels down to 0 in Darkest Dungeon makes the game far harder and more unpredictable, but also yields better currency rewards.

    -Various series like Resident Evil or Metal Gear have a tradition of giving overpowered stuff to the player if they finish harder/the hardest difficulties.

    -Dying Light gives huge rewards for staying outside at night, which is far more difficult than the day.

    -Borderlands has an MMO-esque reward scheme where the best stuff, by far, is found in NG+ which is designed to be harder than NG.

    Plus concepts such as bonus bosses that exist in darn near every single RPGs granting the best rewards but being the hardest thing in the game. Rewarding harder activities with better loot is hardly unique to MMOs, and again that's before we even get into cosmetics which are a very important part of the boosting scene but are rewarded by tougher activities as a darn near industry-wide standard.

    As for "bribing" players, doesn't that logic also affect people playing on lower difficulties? Are raiders "bribed" but are the people who farm for mounts or do WQs for gear justly rewarded for wholesome activities? Where's the threshold here?
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  13. #173
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    So is it too early for crab rave boosting communites gone video?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You literally say it's a bad thing to "lock" progression behind challenge. How is one supposed to interpret that as anything but you wanting everyone on the same footing regardless of how challenging the content they do is?
    People who do challenging content should gear up faster and potentially also get gear that gives them advantages in the content they like to do that you can't get otherwise.

    I don't play FF14 but from what I heard from someone who does, the casual progression is over quite fast. You get good gear from queueing LFR or at most Normal type raids, after that it's Heroic+ which is technically queueable but really mostly done by organized groups so it doesn't seem to count as "casual" progression anymore. That's not too different from, for example, Season 3 where open world quickly gets you Normal-equivalent gear then you need M+, Normal or PvP to get ahead. Or S4 where LFR nets you BiS Normal-equivalent items.
    FF14 does not let everyone get the same BiS gear, but it also is nothing like you described. The point is that if you don't do organized, challenging content, FF14 provides a long term upgrade path that takes weeks to months to complete. In WoW, if you don't do organized group content, gearing is over in about seven minutes. Also, FF14 just doesn't have this obnoxious gear walling around content. The gear to complete content is available Day 1 that that content is out.

    I did play Destiny 2 and among other things, the meh reward scheme is why I stopped. I did like the Exotic hunts a lot, that's the real cool bit. After that, progression was just boring as I really didn't like the raids in that game and Nightfalls were a worse version of M+ which really incremental upgrades. Maybe things have changed from 3 years ago, I dunno, but the D2 I played wasn't satisfying aside from Exotic quests which WoW kinda sorta has sometimes but could stand to emulate more.
    D2 right now is the best it's ever been, but most of what you said is personal value judgement. I think D2s raids are incredible. It is really really grindy though, so it isn't without it's faults.

    Correlation also does not equal causation RE amount of boosting. I don't know MMOs other than WoW enough to extrapolate on if and why there's less boosting there but what makes you able to say the disparity is for the reason you state and this reason only?
    FF14 is easily the most similar game to WoW on the market, so I think that it is the best comparison. When you have problem that is basically unique to WoW, it is reasonable to look at WoW's unique aspects for an explanation, and the massive amount of gear walling and gear inflation in WoW is very unique to the genre.
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  15. #175
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    So is it too early for crab rave boosting communites gone video?
    Might never happen. They’re considering adding a new channel in Trade for selling services. Its been part of the game and as long as there’s gold boosting will never go away. It’s not something that can be feasibly controlled.

    Correction: It’s supposed to be in game now under a setting.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2022-08-07 at 08:52 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    There will be once they add the subscription to gamepass and I'm telling you it's an inevitability before that happens.

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    It sure is but you can't nerf the world because people are retarded, that's why we have all these overcorrections in society now and people can't even discipline their own kids and shit like that any more without people freaking out at them.
    The subscription isn't the point of the token it's being able to buy gold with the money made in rl during which time we can't be farming gold. You really have no clue how much gold you go through in a week a high M+ and mythic raiding prog not even talking about boes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Considering everything they said is 100% accurate, I wouldn't call it hyperbole.
    It's not in the slightest. You can buy gold in any mmo it's most prevalent in wow because not only does it have the largest population it has the most need for gold. Compare how much gold you go through in wow to how much is gone through in ffxiv progression and it's staggering.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    People who do challenging content should gear up faster and potentially also get gear that gives them advantages in the content they like to do that you can't get otherwise.



    FF14 does not let everyone get the same BiS gear, but it also is nothing like you described. The point is that if you don't do organized, challenging content, FF14 provides a long term upgrade path that takes weeks to months to complete. In WoW, if you don't do organized group content, gearing is over in about seven minutes. Also, FF14 just doesn't have this obnoxious gear walling around content. The gear to complete content is available Day 1 that that content is out.



    D2 right now is the best it's ever been, but most of what you said is personal value judgement. I think D2s raids are incredible. It is really really grindy though, so it isn't without it's faults.



    FF14 is easily the most similar game to WoW on the market, so I think that it is the best comparison. When you have problem that is basically unique to WoW, it is reasonable to look at WoW's unique aspects for an explanation, and the massive amount of gear walling and gear inflation in WoW is very unique to the genre.
    BiS raid gear would be a form of progression, tho. You'd still get people being boosted to get the raid gear they want in order to raid. In fact it might get worse if now the people who feel they need boosts now feel that even more if they need separate sets for raids and M+. I really don't believe this a good solution. I like that my M+ gear is great in raids and vice versa.

    Casual players acquiring gear slowly is an avenue I wouldn't have a problem with, but if it's slow people will absolutely say Blizzard is timegating them, and boosts will still get sold a lot for those who again want the gear now or who want to get alts up to speed. To say nothing about cosmetics which also drive boosts a lot, something you can't solve without removing cosmetics from any content that has a challenge, which wouldn't be good game design.

    As I said I have no interest in playing FF14 and so can't comment on comparing the two games. But I also doubt the two communities will react the same to the devs enacting similar measures.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    The subscription isn't the point of the token it's being able to buy gold with the money made in rl during which time we can't be farming gold. You really have no clue how much gold you go through in a week a high M+ and mythic raiding prog not even talking about boes.

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    It's not in the slightest. You can buy gold in any mmo it's most prevalent in wow because not only does it have the largest population it has the most need for gold. Compare how much gold you go through in wow to how much is gone through in ffxiv progression and it's staggering.
    It's most prevalent in WoW because, for the most part, Blizzard doesn't give a shit. Gold sellers get permabanned CONSTANTLY in other games yet they only get a slap on the wrist in WoW.

  19. #179
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The reason boosting in other games is not as prevalent is because they don't take a borderline nonexistant approach to handling it. They will flat out ban accounts without hesitation. Whereas in WoW, most people just get a slap on the wirst. I mean, the higher ups in Blizzard sell boosts so why would they punish people for the same thing? Also, rewards in other games in high end activities are good but don't make you feel like they are absolutely needed to be competitive. Yet in WoW, all the best things are in activities that are sold by boosters.
    Plenty of boosting in other MMORPGs, following ToS or not, WoW isn't some lone example.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Plenty of boosting in other MMORPGs, following ToS or not, WoW isn't some lone example.
    I don't understand why so many people only read bits and pieces of posts. I clearly state that the issue is that Blizzard rarely ever takes ANY action against boosters who breach the ToS and that's the difference.

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