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  1. #181
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Proving my point again. Mmo-champion is irrelevant for like 10 years now. Only a fringe minority of old people who cant let go of the old ways post here. And all the WoW news are faster on Wowhead anyway.
    It is strange that you insult yourself in the process since you keep using this site. You point isn't proven at all. It is a silly conclusion that isn't proven at all. Have you never heard of Reddit? It is essentially an internet forum.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It is an insane leap of logic
    Why is it 'an insane leap of logic'? Note I've never said blizzard is 'evil' for doing it, again that is you putting words in my mouth. I do not understand why you so vehemently assume Blizzard is some selfless non profit organization that operates at a massive loss to give us the best version of WoW that they can.

    "it doesn't actually address any of the real problems the game has."

    I'd argue its the foundation of all problems the game has. You yourself haven't really even addressed the argument, you just keep repeating yourself ad nauseam like you are reading a script.

  3. #183
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    Why is it 'an insane leap of logic'?
    All of the designs you attribute to being done for the token have their roots in game play that existed prior to the token. It is a leap of logic to claim that everything is designed around a conspiracy to promote the token. Most of the things you've brought up has to do with 5-man content being made into the same level of content as Raids. As in a tier-based progression platform.

    Boosts didn't even see a rise because of the token but because of the excessive gold that started with the WoD garrisons. Tokens didn't come until 4-5 months after WoD launched. Sure they didn't hurt the growing boosting scene but even if the token went away the game wouldn't even need to change at all.

    I'd argue its the foundation of all problems the game has.
    If the token was hot fixed out tomorrow all of the problems with the game would still exist. Because none of them rely on the token existing or done because the token exists. If you can remove the foundation and nothing crumbles then it isn't the foundation but merely a facade. This is just the run of the mill anti-WoW/Blizzard argument where a scapegoat is used.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-08-07 at 07:12 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #184
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    I'd argue its the foundation of all problems the game has. You yourself haven't really even addressed the argument, you just keep repeating yourself ad nauseam like you are reading a script.
    Bad and historically ignorant take. Most of the 'problems' that people talk about on forums that you would so blithely assign to the token, existed well before the token was in existence and would continue to exist if the token was removed. I don't have an issue with people that dislike the token but I have yet to see anyone actually list (with evidence) how they have done anything to harm the game itself. Same for boosts. A boost economy has existed in the game since the beginning. Just because that's all anyone can talk about now doesn't mean that much has changed. It's a flavor-of-the-month thing and eventually we'll move on to other issues like LFG/LFR/CRZ/Space Goats and a long, long list of trivia that also were going to cause the game to die. Because what goes around, comes around and people never learn or even try for that matter.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    existed well before the token was in existence and would continue to exist if the token was removed.
    Nothing more than willful ignorance on your part to cover up the severity of the problem. Yes, RMT / boosting / services for gold have existed in WoW, I'm not saying they haven't. But not at the level we're seeing now, and to claim otherwise is to simply ignore the truth.

    A boost economy has existed in the game since the beginning.
    True, but game design in the past didn't take boosting into account when making decisions. You bring up WoD but a token back then was only game time and could not be converted into b.net balance. This is where a lot of problems started when players could choose b.net balance or game time, not really before then. Is the token solely responsible for the downfall of WoW? No. Is designing the game around incentivizing token sales a good thing? Absolutely not.

    have yet to see anyone actually list (with evidence)
    What is evidence to you? Does Ion have to make a sworn statement in a court of law in front of a judge, otherwise it doesn't count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    conspiracy to promote the token.
    Why is that the case? Why would a company not want to make money off of a service it provides? It's something that other games with a token-like system do all the time, but Blizzard is somehow above that and would never do that themselves? Let me guess, you don't believe they'd push FOMO with limited time sales / services / items in game either, that's also a conspiracy to you right?

    Boosts didn't even see a rise because of the token but because of the excessive gold that started with the WoD garrisons.
    They've always been around, but they've just been growing over time and a lot of game design has benefited boosting communities. Whether or not you want to say that is done on purpose fine, that's up to you but it's still a fact.

    If the token was hot fixed out tomorrow all of the problems with the game would still exist.
    Correct, the token itself isn't a problem. Designing around pushing token sales is a problem.

  6. #186
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    Correct, the token itself isn't a problem. Designing around pushing token sales is a problem.
    This is the conspiracy you are pushing. Nothing indicates that design happens the way it has in order to push token sales. Design was already heading in that direction prior to the Token and would still be in that direction if the Token was removed. It isn't a conspiracy that they have sales, services, and limited items in the game. Those are directly observable and it is shows the leaps of logic you are employing to even think something like that is in doubt. They even existed prior to the token which again reinforces that you have no factual basis for your claims.

    The conspiracy you are being accused of pushing isn't that the token is designed to make money. The $5 transaction fee ensures that is the case. The conspiracy is that the entire game is designed around making money with the token. It isn't. If the token was removed from the game tomorrow game design wouldn't have to change. The creation of M+ and Seasons is what drives the game play you keep trying to blame the token for.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #187
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    What is evidence to you? Does Ion have to make a sworn statement in a court of law in front of a judge, otherwise it doesn't count?
    It has to be a lot better than just agreeing based on your personal say-so. You don't know fuck about how the game is actually designed unless you're sitting in on the design meetings. No one here has any clue whatsoever about the facts of that. You have opinions (the lowest form of information since opinions don't need to be supported), you have biases. What you don't have is anything that can be pointed to as an actual fact.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    So public transportation is done by private companies in my country. By your logic they should have the right not to transport whoever they want since its their stuff. If the train company decides not to sell tickets to black people anymore, would that be ok? Of course not.
    It's the same in my country and they very much can and have banned people from using their services.
    They can't however ban an entire group as that would fall under hate crime laws, for quite obvious reasons

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    It's the same in my country and they very much can and have banned people from using their services.
    They can't however ban an entire group as that would fall under hate crime laws, for quite obvious reasons
    I hate crime, it sucks, people should stop doing crime.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It has to be a lot better than just agreeing based on your personal say-so. You don't know fuck about how the game is actually designed unless you're sitting in on the design meetings. No one here has any clue whatsoever about the facts of that. You have opinions (the lowest form of information since opinions don't need to be supported), you have biases. What you don't have is anything that can be pointed to as an actual fact.
    So let me get this straight. Nobody knows how Blizzard designs the game, correct? But you know how they don't design the game. You don't see even a tiny bit of cognitive dissonance with what you've said so far?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This is the conspiracy you are pushing.
    Again, why is a company trying to create incentive to purchase one of it's products / services a conspiracy? Blizzard is not a charity, they don't design a game around losing money. It's not some crazy fringe theory.

    If the token was removed from the game tomorrow game design wouldn't have to change.
    You keep repeating yourself and I agree 100% with this statement, you even quoted it in your own post. You are arguing with this strawman of me that you created, not actually arguing against me at this point.

  11. #191
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    Again, why is a company trying to create incentive to purchase one of it's products / services a conspiracy? Blizzard is not a charity, they don't design a game around losing money. It's not some crazy fringe theory.
    Again you are ignoring what is being called a conspiracy and it has to be deliberate at this point. Making money off a product is not what is being called a conspiracy. Designing the game around the token is what is being called the conspiracy. It is a crazy fringe theory because you have nothing to back it up.

    You keep repeating yourself and I agree 100% with this statement, you even quoted it in your own post. You are arguing with this strawman of me that you created, not actually arguing against me at this point.
    If you agree with that statement then your are saying that you are not correct. As you said that the game has been designed around the token. If it was removed the game wouldn't function because the token would have been central to the design. If its removal doesn't impact the design of the game then the game wasn't designed around it. It just merely existed. It isn't a strawman to address what you said was the foundation of all problems the game has. Lmao.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    I'd argue its the foundation of all problems the game has.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Making money off a product is not what is being called a conspiracy. Designing the game around the token is what is being called the conspiracy.
    I've said repeatedly that blizz has designed around incentivizing tokens. Not directly requiring you to enter credit card info every time you log in. Again, I don't understand how saying that qualifies as a 'conspiracy', other than people insisting that it is...somehow.

  13. #193
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    I've said repeatedly that blizz has designed around incentivizing tokens. Not directly requiring you to enter credit card info every time you log in. Again, I don't understand how saying that qualifies as a 'conspiracy', other than people insisting that it is...somehow.
    The game is not designed around incentivizing tokens if the incentives to do things would be unchanged if the token was removed today. It is a conspiracy because you keep trying to claim that Blizzard is designing the game around the existence of the token and doing so with out any evidence and using leaps of logic.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The game is not designed around incentivizing tokens if the incentives to do things would be unchanged if the token was removed today. It is a conspiracy because you keep trying to claim that Blizzard is designing the game around the existence of the token and doing so with out any evidence and using leaps of logic.
    Again this is one of those things; what qualifies as evidence? I'll refer to the start of Shadowlands specifically here and repeat what I said before. We had harder raids (hardest intro raid of any expansion), harder dungeons (hardest m+ dungeons out of the 3 m+ expansion we've had), loot drops nerfed in raids AND dungeons, and a completely fubar PvP ladder where you'd regularly face people 1000+ rating higher than you in a rated match that severely outgeared you. If you are a solo player, especially one with a busy with RL schedule, would purchasing a token in that environment seem like a terrible idea? Boosting communities exploded in popularity with the start of SL, and they were already popular by the end of BFA. If just one of those or a few happened, I'd dismiss it but to have all of them happen and to see simultaneously that token sales are going through the roof when you look at boosting discords with tens of thousands of members in them. I had multiple guildies who fit that profile who never purchased boosts before but started buying things like KSM, aotc, and rival this time around when before the game was easy enough that they'd never consider it.
    Last edited by TomBrokovski; 2022-08-08 at 01:57 AM.

  15. #195
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    If you are a solo player, especially a busy with RL solo player does not have a lot of time to play wow, would purchasing a token in that environment seem like a terrible idea?
    That isn't evidence that the game is designed around the token. Difficulty in the game has been all over the place both with and without the token being a thing. Boosting communtites were already mega-popular prior to Shadowlands. Everything you listed is your opinion of the value of the token. It is not proof that the game has been designed to actually get people to buy the token. It is only proof that the game has rewards for playing and is designed to get people to keep playing. What all subscription services strive for.

    Gold isn't even created with the token so that really puts a nail in the coffin of your theory. It has to be earned by a person who already has a subscription in order for the system to work. It is rare but tokens have sold out before. Also as I've said if you remove the token today all of the same things still exist. The difference is that busy solo player will just have to earn their gold in-game (or buy it from a "illegal" third party).
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    designed around the token.
    But it does put some incentive toward buying a token, no?

    Gold isn't even created with the token so that really puts a nail in the coffin of your theory.
    You yourself said WoW suffers from gold inflation that started back in WoD. It's not really like gold is exactly scarce, not to mention all the bots farming it up.
    Last edited by TomBrokovski; 2022-08-08 at 02:06 AM.

  17. #197
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBrokovski View Post
    But it does put some incentive toward buying a token, no?
    No. The incentives to buy the token exist from normal game play. Why do you think people bought gold prior to the token existing if there was no incentives to want gold?

    You yourself said WoW suffers from gold inflation that started back in WoD. It's not really like gold is exactly scarce, not to mention all the bots farming it up.
    Which still doesn't mean tokens create gold. The gold has to be generated by the game for the system to work. I'm not just saying WoD caused massive inflation it is a cold hard fact.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    selling boosts isnt a cheat or hack though so discord is in the wrong

    and if you think it is by that same logic buying items from the auction house is cheating.
    It's their platform, so they aren't in the wrong, it's that easy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    They'll go deeper underground, but no way are they disappearing completely. It's too profitable.
    Just because Discord has booted them doesn't mean they won't just crop up on some federated network or self-hosted discord alternative. They'll be more difficult to find, but find them those who want boosting services will.

    Also, that's what you get for relying on a big tech player like Discord to break the ToS of another big tech player like Blizzard. It's a perfect example for why online communities should value reliability, control and independence over ease of use and cheap infrastructure.
    Sorry, but in this case: mission accomplished. It will not disappear, but hosting it on discord vs hosting it on some other website is a big difference. Changes in the visibility is an important factor by itself.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    It's their platform, so they aren't in the wrong, it's that easy.
    This is an excellent point. It's their platform. They can do anything.

  20. #200
    I wonder how we got here...
    Back in the day up to end of MoP, buying a boost in pve was a mark of shame. It was still done, but a lot less visible, all hush hush. Now there are all these people defending boosting - what changed? Is it different people that play the game? Is it the boosters themselves that come front and center? Or are we older as players and still want stuff but don't have the time to do it anymore. Did we just forget we play a game to play and not to have? What changed?

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