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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    MoP had a legedendary cloak that was given to everyone --- that became useless afterwards. It literally set the foundation for the borrowed power system (outside set bonuses).

    MoP is the guideline expansion for every xpac that came after it --- all still building upon the Timeless Isle model.

    Don't believe me?

    Garrisons were an iteration on the farm.

    We got more legendaries with more unique effects starting in Legion.

    WoD experimented with borrowed power via zones based on buildings you chose, another iteration on farming combined with the idea of a special ability.

    World Events legit just tell you where the events (ala timeless isle style) are currently at.

    Covenant Sanctums? Further iteration on the garrisons, which again were started with the farm in MoP.
    You want a ladder, since you seem to be reaching way too much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    MoP didn’t have it because the talent system was new. They work on the next two expansions at a time.
    Of course

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  2. #42
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    It's because 2 different things are going on, but you fail to recognize the second thing at all and instead just bitch about the first. In the vast majority of cases so far, taking away something baseline and putting it into the talent tree is making that option available to the other specs.
    Icebound Fortitude, Chains of Ice, Brain Freeze, Death Strike among many others were already available to all specs.

    You can still get these abilities in your build just fine, and without sacrificing really anything in order to get them,
    If we're not "sacrificing anything", then what's the point? Just keep them baseline.

    Even looking at the worst of cases, you might be giving up guaranteed access to one thing to get potential access to 10 things you would have never had access to previously.
    Except you still are forced to re-buy what you previously had as baseline to reach any of those "10 thinks you would never had access to previously" so, again, what's the point? As a DK tank, I'm still forced to buy Chains of Ice and Mind Freeze to get my tank cooldown, Icebound Fortitude. Oh, hey, Lichborne! My anti-MC/charm CD! Looks like I'll have to go ham into the Unholy side of the basic DK tree to get it.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Talent trees are not borrowed power.
    yes THEY ARE they are the definition of borrowed.

    go learn a talent and unselect again.. YOU LOSE IT aka you BORROWED it

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    There is a reason that old talent trees were removed. They didn't feel good.
    I guess the ui didnt feel good, because they literally went back to this format.

    Idk there were just these underlying things back then because it was new, back then thinking whats better ob or scourge strike, but oo wait scourge strike has a magic portion and a melee portion so both can induvidually critt from eachother? O wow cool.

    That stuff is gone.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    yes THEY ARE they are the definition of borrowed.

    go learn a talent and unselect again.. YOU LOSE IT aka you BORROWED it
    That's not what anyone else means by borrowed power. Everyone else mean systems of power gain that you are required to lose to move forward.

    Redefining terms just to score cheap semantic points is intellectually weak and embarrassing behavior.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #46
    and todays mop rework onward does?

  7. #47
    The worst thing about this is that you need to go through people's talents before letting them in your m+. I can already see dpses who skip utility talents trying to join.

    Obviously when riot scores settle a bit, the ones skipping utility will be on the low end thus no risk of taking them in at that point.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Obbi87 View Post
    First of all, I really love many of the new talents. REALLY cool compared to before.


    BUT! why do I have to use my talent points to get spells, that I had before? Like Mind freeze, outbreak, SS, and so on.


    feels bad when I lose something and then have to pay for it.
    welcome to the talent tree system of old! please enjoy your stay!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's not what anyone else means by borrowed power. Everyone else mean systems of power gain that you are required to lose to move forward.

    Redefining terms just to score cheap semantic points is intellectually weak and embarrassing behavior.
    cool what anyone means ?? its borrowed power you can talk around as much as you like

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I'm sorry it's true though "shrugs"

    Just because they weren't talents back then doesn't negate the fact core abilities were placed in the "classic" trees and people had to know this was gonna happen...I've been saying this for years, that if they ever go back to a more classic like talent system that it will mostly be just buying back abilities and boosts that we got passively as we leveled in the current system
    I mean, the Vanilla-Wrath trees didn't really lock "core abilities" they usually provided an enhanced ability of sorts.

    Take DKs for example: There were some cool abilities in the talent trees like the spec specific cooldowns, but most of what you'd think of as a core ability were really just replacement abilities for the class.

    Dks started off with Death Coil to spend Runic Power, Blood Strike to spend Blood Runes, and Death Strike to spend Frost/Unholy runes.

    Frost DKs gained Frost Strike as an alternative Runic Power spending ability, Blood DKs gained Heart Strike as an alternative to Blood Strike, and Unholy got Scourge Strike as an alternative to Death Strike. Yes, you were "learning core abilities" but they were just replacements for already existing abilities for the most part.

    You didn't need to buy things like Chains of Ice or Mind Freeze with talent points before, you just got them as baseline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    cool what anyone means ?? its borrowed power you can talk around as much as you like
    Not borrowed power. Borrowed power is stuff you have to earn throughout the expansion that goes away by the end of it.

    You don't lose talents at the end of an expansion, you lose tier sets, legendary items, Azurite abilities, and things like that where you can't just opt to keep them as part of your spec.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Icebound Fortitude, Chains of Ice, Brain Freeze, Death Strike among many others were already available to all specs.


    If we're not "sacrificing anything", then what's the point? Just keep them baseline.


    Except you still are forced to re-buy what you previously had as baseline to reach any of those "10 thinks you would never had access to previously" so, again, what's the point? As a DK tank, I'm still forced to buy Chains of Ice and Mind Freeze to get my tank cooldown, Icebound Fortitude. Oh, hey, Lichborne! My anti-MC/charm CD! Looks like I'll have to go ham into the Unholy side of the basic DK tree to get it.
    Again, vast majority of cases. You don't get to be special and keep all your abilities baseline when other classes are doing the same thing to greater reward. The other major point is that these are meant to be levelling trees as well as end level trees. These abilities should be available around the same level you would get them regularly during the levelling process. The difference is that you now have a choice, and other classes with vastly different playstyles get the option to use abilities from other specs to great benefit.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    cool what anyone means ?? its borrowed power you can talk around as much as you like
    Like I said, if you want to just make up definitions for terms that are different from what everyone else means when they use those terms, you aren't being nearly as clever as you think you are. It's a demonstration of intellectual weakness, not strength, to try to play word games to avoid actual conversations. It's a way that people without the mental fortitude to have a real conversation cover for their ineptitude.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #53
    There will be a right way and a wrong way and we can only hope that we can sort out people who want to be " experimental ". I tend to only do Mythic plus so making sure everyone has a kick is important since the less healers have to heal means more chain lightening or judgements or whatever damaging spells they can provide. Now if they just made kick baseline i would largely not care since i will just go to Subcreation and copy so i can finish as soon as possible to move onto another game, wow is cyclical at this point. I also expect the same balance as they have had this expansion without the obvious outliers since they have coming on 18 years of experience.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Icebound Fortitude, Chains of Ice, Brain Freeze, Death Strike among many others were already available to all specs.


    If we're not "sacrificing anything", then what's the point? Just keep them baseline.


    Except you still are forced to re-buy what you previously had as baseline to reach any of those "10 thinks you would never had access to previously" so, again, what's the point? As a DK tank, I'm still forced to buy Chains of Ice and Mind Freeze to get my tank cooldown, Icebound Fortitude. Oh, hey, Lichborne! My anti-MC/charm CD! Looks like I'll have to go ham into the Unholy side of the basic DK tree to get it.
    What is the difference between hitting lvl 28 and getting the ability for free --- or hitting level 28 and putting a talent point into the ability? It's essentially the exact same thing --- except now you can choose to bypass it for something else entirely, if you so wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Like I said, if you want to just make up definitions for terms that are different from what everyone else means when they use those terms, you aren't being nearly as clever as you think you are. It's a demonstration of intellectual weakness, not strength, to try to play word games to avoid actual conversations. It's a way that people without the mental fortitude to have a real conversation cover for their ineptitude.
    man i hope you can still define what a woman is

    borrowed power is borrowed power

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    man i hope you can still define what a woman is

    borrowed power is borrowed power
    A woman is a person who identifies more with femininity than masculinity.

    Borrowed power systems are temporary power gain systems that require you to lose that power later to move forward.

    By your silly, circular definition, borrowed power would include everything that is power, including leveling because I could delete my character and remake it. Congratulations, you've taken a term everyone else understands, pretended to not understand it, redefined it because of your own fake confusion, and then declared victory. Wow, what an accomplishment.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    A woman is a person who identifies more with femininity than masculinity.
    please be bait. please be bait. please be bait.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    please be bait. please be bait. please be bait.
    Yeah it's tough when it doesn't go the way you rehearsed in your little online echo chamber.

    You seem to really like to pretend to be confused by simple concepts.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yeah it's tough when it doesn't go the way you rehearsed in your little online echo chamber.

    You seem to really like to pretend to be confused by simple concepts.
    whats next ? Man can be Woman ?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    whats next ? Man can be Woman ?
    I feel you're reaching way too hard at this point. Are you desperate to feel like you're coming out on top here? Over your hazy definition of borrowed power?
    confirmed by my uncle nitnendo and masahiro samurai

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