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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwgmon View Post
    I feel you're reaching way too hard at this point. Are you desperate to feel like you're coming out on top here? Over your hazy definition of borrowed power?
    just having fun with someone who is trying to lecture me on definition and then posts this shit

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    whats next ? Man can be Woman ?
    A man is a person who identifies more with masculinity than femininity.

    A woman is a person who identifies more with femininity than masculinity.

    These definitions are simple and logically coherent. They actually even account for intersex people, which I’m betting your definition cannot. Furthermore, these definitions account for how people actually interact in society. You address someone as a man or woman based on their masculine or feminine presentation. You don’t test their chromosomes or hormone levels or genitalia.

    I’m sorry that this very simple concept and clear and coherent definitions are so difficult for you, but it’s only making you look silly to pretend to be confused by definitions that everyone else understands.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    A man is a person who identifies more with masculinity than femininity.

    A woman is a person who identifies more with femininity than masculinity.

    These definitions are simple and logically coherent. They actually even account for intersex people, which I’m betting your definition cannot. Furthermore, these definitions account for how people actually interact in society. You address someone as a man or woman based on their masculine or feminine presentation. You don’t test their chromosomes or hormone levels or genitalia.

    I’m sorry that this very simple concept and clear and coherent definitions are so difficult for you, but it’s only making you look silly to pretend to be confused by definitions that everyone else understands.
    bahahahaaha

    ok i stop. i had enough

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    bahahahaaha

    ok i stop. i had enough
    Pretending to laugh when you are embarrassed is really transparent and doesn’t fool anyone.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Pretending to laugh when you are embarrassed is really transparent and doesn’t fool anyone.
    whatever makes you happy

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    whatever makes you happy
    There's a reason I provided definitions and explanations and a coherent argument, and you provided cope laughter. If you had a counterpoint, you would have made it. But we both know you don't have one and now you are feigning apathy in another sad attempt to look like you have the upper hand.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There's a reason I provided definitions and explanations and a coherent argument, and you provided cope laughter. If you had a counterpoint, you would have made it. But we both know you don't have one and now you are feigning apathy in another sad attempt to look like you have the upper hand.
    you read way too much into such a meaningless debate. you can stick with your definition of it and i with mine.

    im out

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    you read way too much into such a meaningless debate. you can stick with your definition of it and i with mine.

    im out
    The definitions you failed to provide? OK buddy. Funny how the guy who kept rambling about definitions cant provide any.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They were removed to make room for borrowed power. How’d that go?
    No they weren't. They were removed because 90% of the "choices" were boring crap like 1/2/3/4/5% increased crit chance. The new (current) system was supposed to offer fewer but more meaningful choices. The idea was solid but the execution has always been just as boring as the original trees were.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    No they weren't. They were removed because 90% of the "choices" were boring crap like 1/2/3/4/5% increased crit chance. The new (current) system was supposed to offer fewer but more meaningful choices. The idea was solid but the execution has always been just as boring as the original trees were.
    They explicitly said when they changed the talent trees that the difficulty of adding to them was a core reason for the change, and when they introduced borrowed power systems they explicitly said that it was to replace the process of gaining new abilities and talents because of how untenable that was long term.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They explicitly said when they changed the talent trees that the difficulty of adding to them was a core reason for the change, and when they introduced borrowed power systems they explicitly said that it was to replace the process of gaining new abilities and talents because of how untenable that was long term.
    This.

    They realized adding several new passive and one active talent was going to lead to too much bloat, so they reduced it all down in Cata, then they removed most of it in MoP, but even MoP onward they kept adding more and more talents.

    Which is why they introduced borrowed power. My thing is like... I dunno maybe the game would get stale if they didn't constantly add new things to classes, but also do they REALLY need to add and change things with classes?

    Honestly, I think that's one reason I prefer Classic WoW to retail: The classes are significantly less bloated overall, and they don't keep changing things up constantly for the sake of change.

  12. #72
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Again, vast majority of cases.
    And this thread is specifically talking about the death knight talent trees, not "the vast majority of classes".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    What is the difference between hitting lvl 28 and getting the ability for free --- or hitting level 28 and putting a talent point into the ability? It's essentially the exact same thing --- except now you can choose to bypass it for something else entirely, if you so wish.
    Except it's not.

    Because, if I still had this ability as baseline, at level 28 I would be spending that talent point on a new talent that would give me something new, and not just re-buying what was once part of the class' core kit.

    And that is my main gripe with the talent trees. There's nothing new about them. They're nothing but baseline abilities ripped from the classes mixed together with abilities from old expansions' legendaries/conduits/artifacts.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #73
    Guys this is not the place to discuss what is a man or woman. Its a world of warcraft forum and the death knight class sub. Lets keep on topic we are all risen heroes here!

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And this thread is specifically talking about the death knight talent trees, not "the vast majority of classes".

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except it's not.

    Because, if I still had this ability as baseline, at level 28 I would be spending that talent point on a new talent that would give me something new, and not just re-buying what was once part of the class' core kit.

    And that is my main gripe with the talent trees. There's nothing new about them. They're nothing but baseline abilities ripped from the classes mixed together with abilities from old expansions' legendaries/conduits/artifacts.
    But you didn't have it baseline, you had to get to level 28 to get it. You still had to invest into your class for the exact same amount of time to get the ability in either method. The difference is, you can now choose to NOT take it, and you have to click an extra button to get it.

    Furthermore, a lot of the talent trees are designed in a way that you can't get further into the tree without the basics of the abilities. As an Enhance shaman, you absolutely have to take certain abilities that are currently baseline just to push further in. The true choice doesn't really come until the last tier, in which you have already gotten most things that are baseline to your class at that point and the talents become more akin to the legendary/artifact abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  15. #75
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    But you didn't have it baseline, you had to get to level 28 to get it. You still had to invest into your class for the exact same amount of time to get the ability in either method.
    In other words: it was baseline. Because you would automatically unlock it without having to spend anything. That's what "baseline" means: it's automatically granted to you and you don't have to pick.

    The difference is, you can now choose to NOT take it, and you have to click an extra button to get it.
    Wrong. The difference is that now I have to re-buy something that was baseline for my class instead of using that talent point to buy something actually new. Like I already said before:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because, if I still had this ability as baseline, at level 28 I would be spending that talent point on a new talent that would give me something new, and not just re-buying what was once part of the class' core kit.

    Furthermore, a lot of the talent trees are designed in a way that you can't get further into the tree without the basics of the abilities. As an Enhance shaman, you absolutely have to take certain abilities that are currently baseline just to push further in.
    Then what was the point of making baseline abilities into talents? Your argument only reinforces mine. They're just baseline stuff ripped from our class and tossed into that talent tree to bloat it and seem more mEaNiNgFuL:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except you still are forced to re-buy what you previously had as baseline to reach any of those "10 thinks you would never had access to previously" so, again, what's the point? As a DK tank, I'm still forced to buy Chains of Ice and Mind Freeze to get my tank cooldown, Icebound Fortitude. Oh, hey, Lichborne! My anti-MC/charm CD! Looks like I'll have to go ham into the Unholy side of the basic DK tree to get it.
    If you're forced to buy specific stuff that used to be baseline just to get to stuff you need, then just keep the baseline stuff as it is and trim down those bloated talent trees to actually BE more meaningful!
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And this thread is specifically talking about the death knight talent trees, not "the vast majority of classes".

    Except it's not.

    Because, if I still had this ability as baseline, at level 28 I would be spending that talent point on a new talent that would give me something new, and not just re-buying what was once part of the class' core kit.

    And that is my main gripe with the talent trees. There's nothing new about them. They're nothing but baseline abilities ripped from the classes mixed together with abilities from old expansions' legendaries/conduits/artifacts.
    You might be talking about specifically the DK talent trees, but that is only happening within the context of a complete overhaul of talent trees for every class. I find it really hard to believe you are interacting with this honestly at this point.

    You know what you would have access to if they didn't re-do the talent trees? Go do mage tower and you'll find out. No covenant abilities, no legendaries, no conduits. What you get with the new talent tree is the ability to keep some of the shit you would otherwise completely lose access to, at the cost of a design MEANT FOR LEVELLING where you put a couple points in to get things you have under the current system (a system that does not allow those abilities to be optional). I don't know why people like you think less choice is better, but this blatant dishonesty about what's going on is getting fucking old.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In other words: it was baseline. Because you would automatically unlock it without having to spend anything. That's what "baseline" means: it's automatically granted to you and you don't have to pick.


    Wrong. The difference is that now I have to re-buy something that was baseline for my class instead of using that talent point to buy something actually new. Like I already said before:




    Then what was the point of making baseline abilities into talents? Your argument only reinforces mine. They're just baseline stuff ripped from our class and tossed into that talent tree to bloat it and seem more mEaNiNgFuL:

    If you're forced to buy specific stuff that used to be baseline just to get to stuff you need, then just keep the baseline stuff as it is and trim down those bloated talent trees to actually BE more meaningful!
    Except it wasn't baseline, you brought it from the class trainer, or picked it from the original talents. Here's a look at the original DK. https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wotlk...or/deathknight

    As you can see, many abilities were locked behind talents.

    so the very incarnation of certain abilities (like lichborne) were that you spent talents on them. This is them returning to form.

    You sound like someone who didn't play when the original talent system was around, which is fine. I understand being scared or nervous, or whatever it is you are feeling, about having to spend a talent point to unlock certain abilities.

    I promise you, it's fine...and exactly the same thing. The talent trees are structured in a way that you can access the baseline things you need (unless you don't want it). WoW streamlined how they gave players abilities, which rendered the world smaller. You could spend more time out in the world, but you no longer went back to cities to go level up and learn new abilities.

    We still won't have to go back to cities, just now when you level, instead of auto getting an ability, you auto get a talent point to choose when you get the ability you want.


    I am only 23 of 31 pts in the general tree and I already have:

    Death Strike, Death Pact, Icebound Fortitude, Lichborne, AMS, AMZ, Chains of Ice, Raise Dead, Mind Freeze, Asphyxiate, Death's Advance

    --- Here you still have 8 points to play with and have covered a lot of abilities that were considered baseline in the class tree. It's going to be okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They were removed to make room for borrowed power. How’d that go?
    well, given pretty much every borrowed power was more interesting than old talents, id say very well...
    people didnt have issue with borrowed power bcs they were not good, but bcs they were, well, BORROWED, we lost them after some time...

  19. #79
    Stood in the Fire Zendhal The Black's Avatar
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    What's the difference getting a spels by hitting certain level or hitting certain level and spending a point on it?


    At least the later has a bit more excitement to it

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    well, given pretty much every borrowed power was more interesting than old talents, id say very well...
    people didnt have issue with borrowed power bcs they were not good, but bcs they were, well, BORROWED, we lost them after some time...
    Good point. Maybe we should replace borrowed power with a system that can be expanded on every expansion. Maybe we can call it a "talent tree".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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