Football Season 2022-2023

[Zantera]

What makes the corner worse was how it happened, Arsenal basically gave that one away and White and Xhaka were firing up the crowd like "Yeah come on this clearance was fire" and then 15 seconds later it was like headless chickens running around and Palace getting an easy goal.

Sure in this game it didn't matter but if you're that weak on corners then it might be an issue when you play Liverpool away or City for example.

[Jessicka]

Mitrovic didnt just blow this game Fulham going for Europe in the leagues, hes gone at least 3 games and that could be extended for what he did Id find it hard to forgive that as a Fulham fan

If it’s only 3 games then they’ve got no credibility for defending referees. Needs the book throwing at him, just can’t have that at all. Made no sense either, you could see the defenders talking and their body language, they knew exactly what was coming.

Gotta say bringing on Antony made the difference though, better out ball and just more pace and urgency in attack.

[durrtygoodz]

You won 4-1. What even is this post? Conceding a corner to Schlupp is cause for concern?

Conceding a corner every match is concerning because we don't always score 4 goals. A corner put Bournemouth 2-0 up at the Emirates and we were seconds away from losing that match. We lost 1-0 to Everton from a corner.

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What makes the corner worse was how it happened, Arsenal basically gave that one away and White and Xhaka were firing up the crowd like "Yeah come on this clearance was fire" and then 15 seconds later it was like headless chickens running around and Palace getting an easy goal.

Yeah bit awkward..

Sure in this game it didn't matter but if you're that weak on corners then it might be an issue when you play Liverpool away or City for example.

Thanks for being sensible.

[Marleycat]

If it’s only 3 games then they’ve got no credibility for defending referees. Needs the book throwing at him, just can’t have that at all. Made no sense either, you could see the defenders talking and their body language, they knew exactly what was coming.

Gotta say bringing on Antony made the difference though, better out ball and just more pace and urgency in attack.

Absolutely throw the book at him but you know at the FA hearing they will be showing the Fernandes incident and asking why nothing happened and theres not equity in this I have said before there should be no tolerance of touching officials cuz you know kids will be doing it 2 weeks later unless there's instant and serious repercussions I could see a rest of the season ban without the Fernandes defence. Ill catch up on the 606 podcast today interested what people have to say.

[Northern Goblin]

Absolutely throw the book at him but you know at the FA hearing they will be showing the Fernandes incident and asking why nothing happened and theres not equity in this I have said before there should be no tolerance of touching officials cuz you know kids will be doing it 2 weeks later unless there's instant and serious repercussions I could see a rest of the season ban without the Fernandes defence. Ill catch up on the 606 podcast today interested what people have to say.

Probably because comparing putting a hand on the back of a linesman to move past him, after he initiated physical contact with you first is not the same as shoving a referee around with your elbow because he's not going to listen to your complaining.

That people are still trying to conflate the two is some TalkShite levels of ridiculousness.

[Marleycat]

Probably because comparing putting a hand on the back of a linesman to move past him, after he initiated physical contact with you first is not the same as shoving a referee around with your elbow because he's not going to listen to your complaining.

That people are still trying to conflate the two is some TalkShite levels of ridiculousness.

Im not disagreeing that it would be a soft sending off, its just with not treating the two instances the same you have drawn a line somewhere, and no-one knows where that line is, or could come up with a scenario that's close to either side of that line, these 2 instances are far enough apart in their severity to be easy to distinguish, what about the next time someone does what Fernandes did but the assistant didn't touch him first? Is that ok? . What about the incident that got dimaria sent off, only touched the refs shirt? For me its either happened or it didn't creating grey areas is creating a problem, there's never excuse for putting a hand an official, because then we'll be talking about well is was more like Mitrovic, or more like Fernandes, the fact that people are still saying is ok to touch an official if its gentle or if its not accompanied by shouting or that it was mitigated by the officials behavior is also some talkshite level of ridiculousness.

I mean are you suggesting the only way Fernandes could get past him was by putting his hands on his back? If not why did he do it?

I'd stick with the zero tolerance choice because I really do not see any situation bar pushing them out of the way of a speeding bullet that you would have to put your hands on an official unless you have permission to do so.

Also if we are going to make it a subjective issue who is going to be in charge of deciding when its ok to handle referees, or calibrate the level of force , or level of aggressive behavior that differentiates whether its a red card or nothing at all. Talk about create a problem

[Northern Goblin]

Officials also shouldn't be touching players, let alone putting his hands on Fernandes first and then obstructing him from continuing play afterwards. There was no reason for the linesman to initiate contact, the FA looked at it afterwards and gave their explanation as to why there wasn't a case to be argued for.

The law doesn't say you can't touch an official, but you sure as shit can't elbow one to face you. How many times do players have their hand on a referee's shoulder when talking to them and pleading their case?

[Marleycat]

Officials also shouldn't be touching players, let alone putting his hands on Fernandes first and then obstructing him from continuing play afterwards. There was no reason for the linesman to initiate contact, the FA looked at it afterwards and gave their explanation as to why there wasn't a case to be argued for.

The law doesn't say you can't touch an official, but you sure as shit can't elbow one to face you. How many times do players have their hand on a referee's shoulder when talking to them and pleading their case?

I think you're confused that I am defending the assistant, I mean first of all I think you have got your man utd glasses on and stretching credibility to say he was obstructing Fernandes, I mean he could have taken a step slightly to his right to avoid the assistant who wasn't even looking at him, the ball wasn't in play, and a 1 second delay to the game restarting to go walk around the assistant probably wouldn't have affected the score in fact Fernandes probably just wanted the game to be over, he stopped playing second half, and there was no delay in restarting the game. I guess I could mitigate the assistants actions by saying he was trying to stop an incident escalating by placing a calming hand on Fernandes but I dont know what was in the assistants mind and I am not excusing him and I think its pretty poor attempting to excuse Fernandes because the assistant touched him first. I mean if the ref didnt give that penalty to Utd, then Mitrovic wouldn't have assaulted him right? So its the refs fault. And that Fernandes was petulant at best and aggressive at worst. As I mentioned DiMaria got sent off for grabbing the refs shirt (and an extra game ban) What's your thoughts on that incident?

Something may not be your fault but the way you respond is still your responsibility.

I mean are you really saying it was wrong of the assistant to touch Fernandes but ok for Fernandes to touch the official? Cuz thats what it sounds like and it comes across like a whole lot of bias.

Ill ask the question again, if there was no need to push the assistant, why did he do it?

Ill ask the question again, where's the line on touching officials? If we cant answer this then there can be no line

Just looked at the Mitrovic one again, he barely touched him he kind of nudged the refs arm with his arm, the scary bit came after he was sent off if that's what we are judging these incidents on potential injury to the official I think both officials couldn't point with any certainty where the player made contact.

[Northern Goblin]

You're setting up arguments there that no one made so you can debate them but I'll bite.

The linesman initiated contact that slowed Fernandes retrieving the ball for the throw in, and then walking infront of him afterwards directly blocking his route.

It doesn't matter what his reasons for doing it are, if he thinks he's preventing something that hasn't actually occurred, you don't touch the players. This isn't boxing, you're a non contact official. If you're then going to punish Fernandes for putting his hand on the linesman's back, you'd have to punish the official for starting it.

Problem there is the FA is really not keen on punishing officials, look how many errors they have to make just to get taken off a Premier League game for the weekend. Had Fernandes swung for the linesman or used any real force this would be a different matter, and you'd not hear me complaining.

But as officials are essentially an on the pitch extension of the FA, and represent them, you can't punish a player without there being a whole CAS argument of entrapment.

If you want a complete strict no contact on the officials ruling, you'd have to make it go both ways, because you cannot expect to enforce a law you have already broken in that incident.

To take it to a ridiculous extreme, if a referee put their hands on a player, or pushed them, or even swung for them and a player defended themselves with reasonable force. Would you still insist the player be punished for putting their hands on an official?

This is why it's important to point out the linesman initiated contact first, it's context to the entire incident. It simply doesn't happen if the linesman doesn't suddenly think he's Herb Dean.

To equate what the Linesman did in the Liverpool game to the referee prior to Mitrovic deciding to elbow him in the side because he wasn't done yelling at a referee who had no interest in listening is so lacking in any critical thought that your rose tinted comment holds no merit, as you clearly aren't coming into this without a bias yourself. Nothing the referee had done was out of the ordinary, outside his remit or considered unacceptable conduct. There's nothing he's done to provoke Mitrovic there. He isn't standing in Mitrovic's path or otherwise obstructing him, nor is he stopping him from retrieving the ball.

There is nothing comparable between the conduct and actions of either official, to try and claim otherwise is laughable.

Again this is why it's so ludicrous to see people trying to compare the two.

Also Di Maria was sent off through a second booking for tugging the referee's shirt, it wasn't a straight red. It also was entirely unnecessary.

[jonnysensible]

lettts goooooo

[Jessicka]

Just looked at the Mitrovic one again, he barely touched him he kind of nudged the refs arm with his arm, the scary bit came after he was sent off if that's what we are judging these incidents on potential injury to the official I think both officials couldn't point with any certainty where the player made contact.

Mitrovic was screaming obscenities in the referees face while he did it; which is exactly what Silva was sent off for about 15 seconds earlier. Fernandez gently eased the assistant aside that had shoved him and blocked his attempt to continue play with absolutely no malice.

Both the FA and former officials say there's no comparison because there's no comparison.

[crusadernero]

I think you're confused that I am defending the assistant, I mean first of all I think you have got your man utd glasses on and stretching credibility to say he was obstructing Fernandes, I mean he could have taken a step slightly to his right to avoid the assistant who wasn't even looking at him, the ball wasn't in play, and a 1 second delay to the game restarting to go walk around the assistant probably wouldn't have affected the score in fact Fernandes probably just wanted the game to be over, he stopped playing second half, and there was no delay in restarting the game. I guess I could mitigate the assistants actions by saying he was trying to stop an incident escalating by placing a calming hand on Fernandes but I dont know what was in the assistants mind and I am not excusing him and I think its pretty poor attempting to excuse Fernandes because the assistant touched him first. I mean if the ref didnt give that penalty to Utd, then Mitrovic wouldn't have assaulted him right? So its the refs fault. And that Fernandes was petulant at best and aggressive at worst. As I mentioned DiMaria got sent off for grabbing the refs shirt (and an extra game ban) What's your thoughts on that incident?

Something may not be your fault but the way you respond is still your responsibility.

I mean are you really saying it was wrong of the assistant to touch Fernandes but ok for Fernandes to touch the official? Cuz thats what it sounds like and it comes across like a whole lot of bias.

Ill ask the question again, if there was no need to push the assistant, why did he do it?

Ill ask the question again, where's the line on touching officials? If we cant answer this then there can be no line

Just looked at the Mitrovic one again, he barely touched him he kind of nudged the refs arm with his arm, the scary bit came after he was sent off if that's what we are judging these incidents on potential injury to the official I think both officials couldn't point with any certainty where the player made contact.

To anyone obsessed with comparing Fernandes & Mitrovic situations: It doesnt matter. Fernandes was much more "gentle" in his push(touch) than Mitrovic and certainly more calm about it. Mitrovic went mental. But it essence, it doesnt matter that Fernandes didnt get a punishment but Mitrovic does. In fact, its about time referees+FAs in every country double down on player behaviour towards ref. I've said it for a long time, but players get away with waaaaaay to much. Refs should be encouraged and applauded for taking actions towards angry players going out of theyre way to intimidate the refs.

In football, we have a serious culture problem when it comes to how we talk to and about refs. Its a issue that excists in the top level, and just as much(if not more) at lower levels. The only language we bofoons understand is punishment from our actions. Touch a ref? Card. Insult him and scream at him? Card. Then, and only then will players start to learn and adapt.

We can see it with VAR. VAR was (is) supposed to help the refs. Instead its become a tool to further ridicule refs. Granted, mistakes happen with VAR too, but that doesnt excuse the culture we have towards ref in football.

its a disgrace and everyone (from pundits to players) should be ashamed and take responsibility. Be a grown ass man, not a whimpy whiny brat thinking they own the world.

Silva & Mitrovic can be banned for rest of the season, be ashamed and take responsibility for the ridicolus behaviour. Good riddance. After that, refs+FA should follow up on it and be consistent. Use the cards.

[molliewoof]

To anyone obsessed with comparing Fernandes & Mitrovic situations: It doesnt matter. Fernandes was much more "gentle" in his push(touch) than Mitrovic and certainly more calm about it. Mitrovic went mental. But it essence, it doesnt matter that Fernandes didnt get a punishment but Mitrovic does. In fact, its about time referees+FAs in every country double down on player behaviour towards ref. I've said it for a long time, but players get away with waaaaaay to much. Refs should be encouraged and applauded for taking actions towards angry players going out of theyre way to intimidate the refs.

In football, we have a serious culture problem when it comes to how we talk to and about refs. Its a issue that excists in the top level, and just as much(if not more) at lower levels. The only language we bofoons understand is punishment from our actions. Touch a ref? Card. Insult him and scream at him? Card. Then, and only then will players start to learn and adapt.

We can see it with VAR. VAR was (is) supposed to help the refs. Instead its become a tool to further ridicule refs. Granted, mistakes happen with VAR too, but that doesnt excuse the culture we have towards ref in football.

its a disgrace and everyone (from pundits to players) should be ashamed and take responsibility. Be a grown ass man, not a whimpy whiny brat thinking they own the world.

Silva & Mitrovic can be banned for rest of the season, be ashamed and take responsibility for the ridicolus behaviour. Good riddance. After that, refs+FA should follow up on it and be consistent. Use the cards.

i agree with this, i said in an earlier post, yellow then red card it out of existence, the only players talking to a ref should be the captains and player involved.

also simulation should be punished more

[Jessicka]

i agree with this, i said in an earlier post, yellow then red card it out of existence, the only players talking to a ref should be the captains and player involved.

also simulation should be punished more

I don't think anyone is arguing we shouldn't see more cards for dissent, and more fines for crowding the referee and other scuffles. We're just saying the Fernandez incident is a terrible example to compare Mitrovic to.

[crusadernero]

I don't think anyone is arguing we shouldn't see more cards for dissent, and more fines for crowding the referee and other scuffles. We're just saying the Fernandez incident is a terrible example to compare Mitrovic to.

I agree. Not even compareable, but this is were we often end up in football discussions. We compare each situation towards others and somehow try to justify/defend it. Its almost a matter of "well this player didnt get punished for it, so neither should this one". one mistake doesnt justify another.

In any case, what Silva & Mitrovic did is probably one of the weirdest situations to happen this year in top football.

[molliewoof]

I don't think anyone is arguing we shouldn't see more cards for dissent, and more fines for crowding the referee and other scuffles. We're just saying the Fernandez incident is a terrible example to compare Mitrovic to.

i think i should probably have made my quote smaller, i was only agreeing with the dissenting yellow cards bit, skim reading also, apologies

[Marleycat]

Mitrovic was screaming obscenities in the referees face while he did it; which is exactly what Silva was sent off for about 15 seconds earlier. Fernandez gently eased the assistant aside that had shoved him and blocked his attempt to continue play with absolutely no malice.

Both the FA and former officials say there's no comparison because there's no comparison.

So there is a line? But you cant say what it is? The fact that people are still discussing and comparing the situation actually proves there's a grey area which means next time something happens we'll be trying to decide how egregious the incident is, then depending on the official outcome you know you're going to get "It was because its a Man Utd player", or its because the ref was paid, or its because they want man city to win the league. Grey areas = Grey decisions.

All Im asking from people delineating these two incidents which I agree are poles apart in seriousness are to give an example of something next to the line thats acceptable and something next to the line that's not acceptable, which I don't think you or anyone could do, because were then talk about laws and interpretation not a rule.
btw "The assistant shoved him"? Are you sure youre watching the right incident, Fernandes shoved TAA the assistant put his hand on Fernandes, Fernandes touched the assistant with a pushing motion, lets not rewrite the incident.

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You're setting up arguments there that no one made so you can debate them but I'll bite.

The linesman initiated contact that slowed Fernandes retrieving the ball for the throw in, and then walking infront of him afterwards directly blocking his route.

It doesn't matter what his reasons for doing it are, if he thinks he's preventing something that hasn't actually occurred, you don't touch the players. This isn't boxing, you're a non contact official. If you're then going to punish Fernandes for putting his hand on the linesman's back, you'd have to punish the official for starting it.

Problem there is the FA is really not keen on punishing officials, look how many errors they have to make just to get taken off a Premier League game for the weekend. Had Fernandes swung for the linesman or used any real force this would be a different matter, and you'd not hear me complaining.

But as officials are essentially an on the pitch extension of the FA, and represent them, you can't punish a player without there being a whole CAS argument of entrapment.

If you want a complete strict no contact on the officials ruling, you'd have to make it go both ways, because you cannot expect to enforce a law you have already broken in that incident.

To take it to a ridiculous extreme, if a referee put their hands on a player, or pushed them, or even swung for them and a player defended themselves with reasonable force. Would you still insist the player be punished for putting their hands on an official?

This is why it's important to point out the linesman initiated contact first, it's context to the entire incident. It simply doesn't happen if the linesman doesn't suddenly think he's Herb Dean.

To equate what the Linesman did in the Liverpool game to the referee prior to Mitrovic deciding to elbow him in the side because he wasn't done yelling at a referee who had no interest in listening is so lacking in any critical thought that your rose tinted comment holds no merit, as you clearly aren't coming into this without a bias yourself. Nothing the referee had done was out of the ordinary, outside his remit or considered unacceptable conduct. There's nothing he's done to provoke Mitrovic there. He isn't standing in Mitrovic's path or otherwise obstructing him, nor is he stopping him from retrieving the ball.

There is nothing comparable between the conduct and actions of either official, to try and claim otherwise is laughable.

Again this is why it's so ludicrous to see people trying to compare the two.

Also Di Maria was sent off through a second booking for tugging the referee's shirt, it wasn't a straight red. It also was entirely unnecessary.

Bias? Really? Im saying no tolerance for anyone touching the officials where's the bias? if anything this is a great example of non-bias?

Rose tinted spectacles, I don't understand, I simple don't agree with you and its really not ludicrous that someone has a different outlook to you on something like this because its a grey area = you're going to have different opinions I'm not saying I'm right I'm saying that's my opinion "Don't create grey interpretive situations where there doesn't need to be one" because that for sure will lead to screams of bias.

btw to take your extreme example I already said if you're pushing the ref out of the way of an oncoming car, you can defend that action, Id consider defending yourself from harm the same, you'd really have no option, but pushing the ref when you have the option not to and nothing is served by that action is what were talking here. Im still not clear if you are suggesting Fernandes wouldn't have touched the assistant if the assistant didn't touch him first, or the reason he gave him a little shove was because he was in the way, or just looking for some way to excuse him, I'm not sure the context is very strong here and Im pretty sure none of what your suggesting was considered at the time it happened. I think most of us dont think that what the assistant did was right, and in that context surely what Fernandes did was also not ok

I guess you want to discredit and throw shade rather than commit to defining acceptable abuse of the ref, or consider the bigger picture as you have discredited the official (that no-one here has defended) to mitigate Fernandes actions and where the fact still remains that there was no reason to push the official. I guess that's where we stand.

[Nerph-]

lettts goooooo

I honestly thought it was a joke at first, then saw it as the top article on BBC Football. Insane, what a world we live in.

Edit: At least it's only until the end of the season... Wonder if the Palace board has someone else lined up for after that.

[Jessicka]

So there is a line? But you cant say what it is? The fact that people are still discussing and comparing the situation actually proves there's a grey area which means next time something happens we'll be trying to decide how egregious the incident is, then depending on the official outcome you know you're going to get "It was because its a Man Utd player", or its because the ref was paid, or its because they want man city to win the league. Grey areas = Grey decisions.

Of course there's a line, quite a thick one between no action and red where a yellow card can be produced if warranted. In the Bruno situation if that was another player rather than an official, would anyone even remember it happening? Not at all, even the assistant didn't react as if anything unusual was going on. If it'd been in any other game, I doubt if it would have been noticed, it just happened to be a 7-0 thrashing at Anfield where the entire Utd team lost it but Bruno has been singled out for losing his as Captain. If he got a yellow, then weird but okay, but there's no way in hell that's a red.

He's not defending himself, there's no violence from the official, there's no violence from him, they're just trying to be in the same space on the edge of the pitch for a throw in. I was going to say six of one half a dozen of the other, but it's not even that. And you want to compare it to screaming abuse in someone's face and shoving a man twice?

[Northern Goblin]

Bias? Really? Im saying no tolerance for anyone touching the officials where's the bias? if anything this is a great example of non-bias?

Trying to even treat the two as similar despite people constantly showing you key differences. You can say I'm rose tinted being a United fan, I'm saying you're biased as a top 4 rival that would loved to have seen United's captain miss a few games.

Im still not clear if you are suggesting Fernandes wouldn't have touched the assistant if the assistant didn't touch him first, or the reason he gave him a little shove was because he was in the way, or just looking for some way to excuse him, I'm not sure the context is very strong here and Im pretty sure none of what your suggesting was considered at the time it happened. I think most of us dont think that what the assistant did was right, and in that context surely what Fernandes did was also not ok

The former, and it was certainly considered when the FA looked at it and decided there was no case to answer for.

Nothing happened at the time because the referee didn't see it and the linesman who had a hand on his back after grabbing at Fernandes probably considered it a nothingburger. No one was complaining about it when it happened.

I guess you want to discredit and throw shade rather than commit to defining acceptable abuse of the ref, or consider the bigger picture as you have discredited the official (that no-one here has defended) to mitigate Fernandes actions and where the fact still remains that there was no reason to push the official. I guess that's where we stand.

That you try to compare them as similar is what is being discredited. The whole argument was "why is this ok, but this isn't" as if they're the same incident, when they're most laughably not.