If you were Lead Narrative Designer would you retcon Shadowlands?

[Clone]

Yeah, I'd completely erase it and WoD too.

[Kralljin]

and people who die and go to SL should never interact with us again.

Disregarding the mere knowledge that most stories of the afterlife are in fact, a lie, should probably cause some ruckus.

I mean, go tell a Pally that instead of "becoming one with the light", there's a good chance he'll end up in a Scourge bloodsport Arena - i doubt he'd be thrilled about that.

Or any Shaman communing with Ancestors, if its ancestors became Kyrian...then they should look like members of the blue man group (plus the fact that Kyrian get mind wiped so they shouldn't recognize you to begin with), if they're Venthyr they should look like Nosferatu and if they became a Necrolord, then there's a chance said ancestor looks like some Scourge creation.
Nevermind it also raises questions how the ancestors should now know anything of use, they...uh "live" in the Shadowlands now, they should know jackshit about the real world - the denizens didn't even know that someone was wreaking havoc with Domination magic in the real world, how should some ancestor help any character making a decision?
This entire concept of looking for spiritual guidance really makes little sense with the concept of the Shadowlands, because it's portrayed as a very closed off realm.

And that doesn't even account how dead people just somehow suffer amnesia the second they're being raised by anyone (Afaik, current canon is that anyone who gets raised from the dead forgets everything about the Shadowlands), which would be rather comedic if some person gains a position of relevance within the Shadowlands, gets raised by someone and *poof* they're gone all of a sudden because someone in reality raised them from the dead.

That's what i mean when i say it damaged the setting, something simple as a character communing with spirits, which is a really bread and butter thing in a fantasy setting like Warcraft suddenly raises a whole slew of questions.

[Dakhath]

Retconning an entire expansion would just make the story worse than it already is. Just move on while addressing it as little as possible and try to learn from that mistake.

[Rageonit]

Disregarding the mere knowledge that most stories of the afterlife are in fact, a lie, should probably cause some ruckus.

I mean, go tell a Pally that instead of "becoming one with the light", there's a good chance he'll end up in a Scourge bloodsport Arena - i doubt he'd be thrilled about that.

Or any Shaman communing with Ancestors, if its ancestors became Kyrian...then they should look like members of the blue man group (plus the fact that Kyrian get mind wiped so they shouldn't recognize you to begin with), if they're Venthyr they should look like Nosferatu and if they became a Necrolord, then there's a chance said ancestor looks like some Scourge creation.
Nevermind it also raises questions how the ancestors should now know anything of use, they...uh "live" in the Shadowlands now, they should know jackshit about the real world - the denizens didn't even know that someone was wreaking havoc with Domination magic in the real world, how should some ancestor help any character making a decision?
This entire concept of looking for spiritual guidance really makes little sense with the concept of the Shadowlands, because it's portrayed as a very closed off realm.

And that doesn't even account how dead people just somehow suffer amnesia the second they're being raised by anyone (Afaik, current canon is that anyone who gets raised from the dead forgets everything about the Shadowlands), which would be rather comedic if some person gains a position of relevance within the Shadowlands, gets raised by someone and *poof* they're gone all of a sudden because someone in reality raised them from the dead.

That's what i mean when i say it damaged the setting, something simple as a character communing with spirits, which is a really bread and butter thing in a fantasy setting like Warcraft suddenly raises a whole slew of questions.

Don't forget though that there are supposedly infinite number of different "shadowlands" (or at least many more that we've actually seen). What we saw related directly to the story, but we still don't know much about the afterlife and places you can go to - so a Paladin can still believe there's a realm where he can be one with the Light. Shadowlands didn't give any definite answers to how out afterlife will look, it was only a small glimpse of a few possible options.

[Kralljin]

Don't forget though that there are supposedly infinite number of different "shadowlands" (or at least many more that we've actually seen). What we saw related directly to the story, but we still don't know much about the afterlife and places you can go to - so a Paladin can still believe there's a realm where he can be one with the Light. Shadowlands didn't give any definite answers to how out afterlife will look, it was only a small glimpse of a few possible options.

...the light invaded the Shadowlands, so i doubt there is an Afterlife within the Shadowlands where the light is being tolerated.

Disregarding that still leaves it up to the Arbiter to send you to that hypothetical Afterlife, it also joinked Uther to the Kyrians and Mograine to the Necrolords.

[Rageonit]

...the light invaded the Shadowlands, so i doubt there is an Afterlife within the Shadowlands where the light is being tolerated.
Disregarding that still leaves it up to the Arbiter to send you to that hypothetical Afterlife, it also joinked Uther to the Kyrians and Mograine to the Necrolords.

The story is open enough to allow for many possibilities. If it was said that what we saw is the enitrety of the Shadowlands, that'd create all sort of problems. But we don't know - we, the mortals, simply don't have enough data. We can't say if there is or isn't a Light realm somewhere in the Shadowlands - and since we can't, you, the Paladin, can still believe whatever you want. For me, it settles the matter - people are able to believe in things much less probable than that. Utheir being sent to the Kyrians...? Apparently it was his destiny, because he had a role to play. You, the other Paladin, can always argue he was not ready to become one with the Light. It's all up in the air. Frankly, even if we were told that's all there is to the Shadowlands, we (the Paladins or Shamans or whoever else) wouldn't believe. That's how belief works.

[Darknessvamp]

Still leaves you hanging with plenty of question, like: why did Sylvanas did what she did? Supposedly she was motivated by Jailor (who doesn't exist, as he was merely a figment out our imagination), so was she already controlled by Nzoth - and if she was, should she be redeemed of her actions...? Etc. etc.
Pretending that SL didn't happen doesn't solve much; if anything, it makes some of the stories and motivations even more muddled. At least some of the stories got closure in the Shadowlands; without that, you're back to square one with a set of all new troubles.

Considering a number of her actions in BfA don't make much sense if she was being motivated or directed by the Jailer e.g. killing Night Elves only to ress a number of them into her army, letting Saurfang live during the Loyalist questline, Sylvanas working with Azshara to get her the dagger, having Nathanos deliver it to Nazjatar and deciding to cut short the war/conflict that would fuel the Jailor's death machine when they had an advantage at the gates of Ogrimmar with one off the cuff phrase comes to mind, it wouldn't take much effort to stick with her previous motivation of wanting to permanently avoid her proper death which predates the Jailer being invented as a concept and writing some form of storyline that involves the very substance we'd been obsessed with in BfA, Azerite, and her new allegiance requiring her to do what she ended up doing in BfA to put her on the path towards utilising it towards that end goal as a future storyline when she re-emerged, with the loyalists involved on her behalf (which would make sense for them to exist then and everyone else opposing her), rather than Tyrande just tracking down her activities like 5 days later after BfA finishes.
Erasing SL solves the gaping issue of the Afterlife and character death being severely reduced in gravitas with us just being able to socialise with our 'dead' whenever now, it muddles the Firsts ones, god robots, Pantheon copy paste constructs and detrimental retcons as a fever dream induced by the Old God that was literally able to warp the Earth Warden to his way of thinking and the stories with 'closure' e.g. Sylvanas is now 'whole' and has blue eyes and is on the path of the redeemer and Tyrande is no longer dark eyed and moody aren't exactly conclusions to write home about having any narrative worth when they came about due to recently introduced contrivance, e.g. Sylvanas 'always' had her soul split and Elune 'always' had a sister that could fix the contrived as of BfA Night Warrior power up, and come off as the product of frankly poorly planned last minute writing.

[Kralljin]

The story is open enough to allow for many possibilities.

No, it's not, the Venthyr made a big deal out of the light invading their territory.
They set up a story in Shadowlands that the cosmic forces are at odds with each other, them rolling back on this goes so hilariously against your own narrative because they would recontextualize the very story of Shadowlands.

Nevermind that it doesn't make sense because prominent light aligned figures such as Uther and Mograine went to other afterlives and in the case of Uther, the Light literally intervened to send some of his soul into the Shadowlands to begin with.

[Rageonit]

No, it's not, the Venthyr made a big deal out of the light invading their territory.
They set up a story in Shadowlands that the cosmic forces are at odds with each other, them rolling back on this goes so hilariously against your own narrative because they would recontextualize the very story of Shadowlands.
Nevermind that it doesn't make sense because prominent light aligned figures such as Uther and Mograine went to other afterlives and in the case of Uther, the Light literally intervened to send some of his soul into the Shadowlands to begin with.

I, the other Paladin, don't believe it. I was always told I will be one with the Light, so you're wrong, and it will happen.
Why do you try to rationalize the story so much...? Look around you, man. In the real-real world. Look around and think of things people on this planet still believe, in this day and age. Do you really think any rationale can stop them from believing...?

[PixelFox]

I would have the player wake up in bed with Suzanne Pleshette and discover that the entire expansion, and in fact everything since WotLK, was all a fever dream brought on by eating too much Tuskarr sushi before bed.

[Super Dickmann]

No, it's not, the Venthyr made a big deal out of the light invading their territory.
They set up a story in Shadowlands that the cosmic forces are at odds with each other, them rolling back on this goes so hilariously against your own narrative because they would recontextualize the very story of Shadowlands.

Blizzard, recontextualizing previous story beats to service the current narrative? Perish the thought.

The societal impact of people knowing about SL never being handled is one of the many fuck-ups of the expansion, but can hypothetically be done well. It however won't because Blizzard never have and never will care considering they've never addressed more minor elements like how the entire orcish basis for spirit worship was the result of a crashed alien spaceship or base elements of societal tolerance like warlocks and mages. If Blizzard want to make it so that the Light competes with SL for souls not only would they be able to do so they'd be able to use their own ancient tribute quests like Brindenbrad to do so. If they want to go lighter they can go 'Oh, one of the gorillion realms is actually okay with the Light because much like every race are friends so are all the cosmic powers '

[Khaza-R]

Don't forget though that there are supposedly infinite number of different "shadowlands" (or at least many more that we've actually seen). What we saw related directly to the story, but we still don't know much about the afterlife and places you can go to - so a Paladin can still believe there's a realm where he can be one with the Light. Shadowlands didn't give any definite answers to how out afterlife will look, it was only a small glimpse of a few possible options.

"Oh there's infinite afterlives, you just haven't seen them" - just comes across as lazy rather than interesting.

Not to mention the whole plot hole with the drought. If the anima is stretched across a near infinite number of afterlives than even a sizeable diminishment should impact any one realm significantly. Yet somehow a single war on a single planet seemed to generate enough anima to have some sort of impact. The whole thing demonstrates Blizzard's issues with telling rather than showing in the narrative.

[Rageonit]

"Oh there's infinite afterlives, you just haven't seen them" - just comes across as lazy rather than interesting.

I'd say that has more to do with other beliefs and religions we already have in WoW. Clearly, they can't show us infinite realms (or even more than they actually did), and races across Azeroth (and beyond, if there are other habitated planets) have different beliefs. Imagine what would happen if, in our world, someone came back from the afterlife with an undisputable proof that the only and true god is the mighty Zeus. If there are different afterlives we didn't see, races living in Azeroth can still believe whatever they want to believe. Many problems dodged! Clearly, they wanted to make SL a self-contained story - and that's one way of doing it without too many repercussions. Otherwise they'd have to change the story into some kind of religion war (or risk an even bigger plot hole if they'd chose to ignore it completely).

[ChairmanKaga]

In order to maintain the systems of the Shadowlands, once the "champions" had stopped The Blue Meanie, all their memories should have been erased of what lies beyond the veil of death (portals closed off etc). The events of the expansion would have played out but the characters afterward would have no knowledge of it. To Azeroth's inhabitants, Sylvanas would simply be gone after she disappeared at the end of BfA, perhaps remembered as a boogeyman threat still out there. I guess that would require some intervention re: Tyrande why she was not still enraged but maybe the new seed would tie into that or some direct intervention from Elune etc.
Not a wiping out of the events from a narrative perspective but closing SL off into it's own cul-de-sac that could be ignored or dipped into at some future point.

[Khaza-R]

I'd say that has more to do with other beliefs and religions we already have in WoW. Clearly, they can't show us infinite realms (or even more than they actually did), and races across Azeroth (and beyond, if there are other habitated planets) have different beliefs. Imagine what would happen if, in our world, someone came back from the afterlife with an undisputable proof that the only and true god is the mighty Zeus. If there are different afterlives we didn't see, races living in Azeroth can still believe whatever they want to believe. Many problems dodged! Clearly, they wanted to make SL a self-contained story - and that's one way of doing it without too many repercussions. Otherwise they'd have to change the story into some kind of religion war (or risk an even bigger plot hole if they'd chose to ignore it completely).

The technological limits are understandable. But the issues is they just used it as a way to hand wave explaining it. The Shadowlands has a pantheon of deities who have their own realms which are seemingly the most important ones. Are the other realms insignificant? Do they have rulers of their own? Even giving a glimpse of this would of went a long way. In Legion, they at least attempted to show you the Legion was infinite and invading countless worlds. But we didn't even get to go to another afterlife for a quest or anything. The whole thing feels like they did the bare minimum to even flesh it out. Which is why its so inconveniencing.

As for your example, other than Ardenweald, the belief system of a mortal has nothing to do with where they will end up so its kind of irrelevant. You could be someone like Draka who venerated the spirits and end up in the same place as a scumbag, mass murderer like Vashj apparently. How it functions as a system is part of the problem for a lot of people.

[Biomega]

Damage is done.

Retcons suck balls most of the time, so that's over.

But would I go back and make SL be something different if I had a time machine? Fuck yeah.

[Itisamuh]

No. Shadowlands was easily one of the most interesting expansions to me. Warcraft has always been weak as far as coherent writing and storytelling quality are concerned so I have no idea why people are acting like this is a new thing.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

No. Shadowlands was easily one of the most interesting expansions to me. Warcraft has always been weak as far as coherent writing and storytelling quality are concerned so I have no idea why people are acting like this is a new thing.

There are a lot of positive things about Shadowlands. I liked Kyrian and Venthyr and their realms. Zereth Mortis was really something special. It reminded me of the Ahn'Qiraj. Oribos was also an epic place to be, even Torghast. What I didn't like was the whole quest line in Korthia and the hopeless chasing of the Jailer, who continued on winning, and at the end, we didn't really achieve anything, and of course, Sylvanas being present in almost every cinematic.

[Kralljin]

Blizzard, recontextualizing previous story beats to service the current narrative? Perish the thought.

Point is that however that Blizzard will not bother doing this, primarily because it undermines the current story they want to tell and their current story is that each cosmic power are at odds with each other.

And as said earlier, you need also need to jump through the extra hoop to explain why [light aligned character] didn't go to that realm.

I, the other Paladin, don't believe it. I was always told I will be one with the Light, so you're wrong, and it will happen.
Why do you try to rationalize the story so much...? Look around you, man. In the real-real world. Look around and think of things people on this planet still believe, in this day and age. Do you really think any rationale can stop them from believing...?

Do i really have to explain the very obvious difference between faith in this fictional setting and the real world?

[Rageonit]

Do i really have to explain the very obvious difference between faith in this fictional setting and the real world?

If you want to, I guess...?
Faith is faith both in a fictional setting and in real world. Faith can not be erased by rationale, because faith is not rational, period. So for a Paladin, it doesn't matter if there are other afterlives than the one's he after for. He will still believe whatever he wants to believe. Will some Paladins start to doubt...? Maybe, but some already doubt - that's also part of faith. You can even make new stories out of that.