Poll: Would you?

This poll will close on 2022-11-01 at 10:41 PM Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Do i really have to explain the very obvious difference between faith in this fictional setting and the real world?
    If you want to, I guess...?
    Faith is faith both in a fictional setting and in real world. Faith can not be erased by rationale, because faith is not rational, period. So for a Paladin, it doesn't matter if there are other afterlives than the one's he after for. He will still believe whatever he wants to believe. Will some Paladins start to doubt...? Maybe, but some already doubt - that's also part of faith. You can even make new stories out of that.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I, the other Paladin, don't believe it. I was always told I will be one with the Light, so you're wrong, and it will happen.
    Why do you try to rationalize the story so much...? Look around you, man. In the real-real world. Look around and think of things people on this planet still believe, in this day and age. Do you really think any rationale can stop them from believing...?
    Except we, you know, ACTUALLY WENT TO THE SHADOWLANDS and saw them for ourselves.

    Reminds me of a time someone asked me if I'd still be an atheist if I lived in D&D. No... in a world where a god literally comes down and shakes your hand, things work differently.

    We've SEEN things happen. We've BEEN there. We've met Naaru, we've even seen Elune come down and do shit. Many of the gods and demigods of WoW's mythology WE HAVE MET.

    We've seen one of the greatest champions of the Light in the Shadowlands, and we've seen what happens to plenty of other paladins, too. Does that mean there ISN'T some Light-specific afterlife? No. Blizzard can write whatever the fuck they want. What we DO know is the Light messed with the Shadowlands, and was NOT welcome there. It's a different cosmic force, so whatever it's doing is most likely fucking with things, just like the Naaru always do.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If you want to, I guess...?
    Faith is faith both in a fictional setting and in real world. Faith can not be erased by rationale, because faith is not rational, period. So for a Paladin, it doesn't matter if there are other afterlives than the one's he after for. He will still believe whatever he wants to believe. Will some Paladins start to doubt...? Maybe, but some already doubt - that's also part of faith. You can even make new stories out of that.
    ...faith is a factual, objective power in the universe of Warcraft.

    Religion (or faith) in WoW isn't a man made concept, when a priest prays for your health, it literally can heal you.
    That's why atheism wouldn't a lick of sense in WoW, because every priest, paladin, shaman or druid can proof any atheist wrong within a second or by just having them visit whatever deity they worship.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-08-07 at 06:40 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...faith is a factual, objective power in the universe of Warcraft.

    Religion (or faith) in WoW isn't a man made concept, when a priest prays for your health, it literally can heal you.
    That's why atheism wouldn't a lick of sense in WoW, because every priest, paladin, shaman or druid can proof any atheist wrong within a second or by just having them visit whatever deity they worship.
    Obviously there are superior powers working in the world of Azeroth, but it DOESN'T mean that somehow faith becomes factual there. Factual are the powers that work, like physics in our world - but behind those powers, there is still a mystery, the unknown. And it is that mystery that's subject to faith - and it doesn't work differently than our faith does. A Paladin still needs to believe his powers come where he thinks they do, and he's still unsure what will happen to him after he dies.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Point is that however that Blizzard will not bother doing this, primarily because it undermines the current story they want to tell and their current story is that each cosmic power are at odds with each other.

    And as said earlier, you need also need to jump through the extra hoop to explain why [light aligned character] didn't go to that realm.
    The power of any given participant in the plot varies depending on how relevant they are. Since Shadowlands was about Death, its powers got a massive uptick, much like how after being jobbers for their entire time in the game post-WC3, the Legion were bumped up to A-list again for Legion. A Light expansion will move the needle in their direction and given how Blizzard has leaned into the cosmic ping-pong game and has already played with non-Shadowlands forces setting up places for souls, like the Halls of Valor or Helheim, they've an easy-in to have the Light be saving souls from the machine. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll do so, obviously, only that they've already showed the Light directly accepting souls before and that decision fits in with their presentist writing style.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Except we, you know, ACTUALLY WENT TO THE SHADOWLANDS and saw them for ourselves.
    We saw a small portion of it, and we know nothing of things we didn't see.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Obviously there are superior powers working in the world of Azeroth, but it DOESN'T mean that somehow faith becomes factual there. Factual are the powers that work, like physics in our world - but behind those powers, there is still a mystery, the unknown.
    No, that's just plainly false.

    You saw the Afterlife, people that have been there know that placing your faith of a promised afterlife is very much out of hand of that power you're worshipping, the only character who has the control to send someone to a specific afterlife is the Arbiter.
    Any mortal soul has to abide by that. Period.

    And we've seen in Shadowlands, that fate very much can differ from what they've believed in.
    Mograine sure as shit didn't believe he'd end up in the proto Plaguelands, nor did Vashj.
    Look at any Scarlet Crusader, we've seen those people end up in Revendreth, despite them being certainly faithful to the light (else they couldn't wield it), but by the morals of the Shadowlands, they were in need of redemption and thus were sent to Revendreth.

    That's the point, faith is a factual thing in Warcraft, there is no "mystery" in that sense to it, it is an actual force that no one can deny.

    And frankly when you reach that point where this has to be debated, i'm asking myself whether you're just now simply caught up in discussion simply because you don't want to cede any merit to what i'm saying.
    If you think SL shouldn't be retconned, that's fine, but arguing about this is just so completely silly, because any character within the Warcraft universe who says "no, i believe the light will save my soul and send me to the "light afterlife"" is just factually wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    has already played with non-Shadowlands forces setting up places for souls, like the Halls of Valor or Helheim, they've an easy-in to have the Light be saving souls from the machine. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll do so, obviously, only that they've already showed the Light directly accepting souls before and that decision fits in with their presentist writing style.
    I think the massive difference is however that Odyn and Helya by extension are largely rogue forces in the grand scheme of things, what they only cared about really are Vrykul souls (and Odyn also only cared about the ones from the strongest Warriors, which Helya in return tried to steal).

    If the Light were to snatch up souls at a remotely large scale, then that would obviously raise questions how the Shadowlands doesn't notice this or why some light aligned character landed in the Shadowlands.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-08-07 at 07:03 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    We saw a small portion of it, and we know nothing of things we didn't see.
    Its kind of immaterial though? There could be a light based afterlife, but it doesn't really matter because only the Arbiter gets to choose where you go and your beliefs seem irrelevant to its decision making process.

  9. #129
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Dont forget the Legion too.
    Legion was okay the main issues I had with it was the lack of involvement by Orcs. Orcs deserved to have a prominent role in fighting them just as much as the Draenei. Saurfang should have been leading an army of Orcs along side Velen and Illidan.

  10. #130
    Honestly Shadowlands is like the Last jedi where it kills the antagonist screws up all the characters and tries to promote the mary sue(anduin) and redeem the bad guy(sylvanas). Best thing the story could do is forget it ever existed and move on and jusst play it off as some sort of mass hallucination.

  11. #131
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    I would apologize to the fanbase for disappointing them and for failing to respect all those beloved characters and events that shaped Warcraft into what it is (was) and tell them Shadowlands will be treated as a "what if" side content that will remain accessible to be enjoyed but going forward the story will continue as if it didn't happen. Might also throw an apology for hyping up an Old God for 10 years only to lazor him in a single content patch.
    More or less what I would do, but with the caveat that we would return to SL and do it properly in the future.

  12. #132
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    I would not, even though I'm not fan of many things that happened there, but the same comes in every expansion, some worse than others, I mean, people don't mention Burning Crusade much because it was so long ago, but... damn it was so flawed story wise, we ended up fighting a lot of characters just for the sake of having a raid.

    At this point I would prefer to "add" content to different expansions, questlines, Easter eggs and so on to explain certain holes in the story
    Last edited by Maxilian; 2022-08-12 at 07:16 AM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    More or less what I would do, but with the caveat that we would return to SL and do it properly in the future.
    I would rather we didn't. Some things need to remain a mystery.

  14. #134
    I do not think that it should be retconned. It is the worst shit ever done in WoW in terms of story and narrative, mainly because it completely fucks all previous lore. But the damage is already done, probably a retcon would make things even worse.

    BUT !! They really need to destroy them or deal with the Shadowlands in some way. It is ridiculous that from now on every character death is meaningless, as we know where they go and we can get them back or at least salute them and talk about how our afternoon is going.

    Seriously, how they thought that the Shadowlands would be a cool idea that they could manage? Nobody thought about the ENORMOUS implications and damage to EVERY future content that they come up with?

    Hopefully since it seems that they will mess with time and alternative universes in Dragonflight, they can try to fix it.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2022-08-13 at 10:01 AM.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

  15. #135
    Everything after Legion didn`t happen, no BfA, no Shadowlands.

    There is no overarching and grand narrative anymore, only side stories.
    New lands, new faces and new problems that need solving.

    No super evil robots with the power to "unmake reality", no one god above all others.
    More focus on myths and legends, of stories relating to creatures and creations of unknowable origins.
    Less focus on actually meeting and seeing them.

  16. #136
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    I would never retcon anything however much I hated it. And I would not ignore it either; it is now part of the canon, find a way to make it interesting.

  17. #137
    Obviously not. For its many faults it dealt with the fallout from BFA. Sylvanas needed consequences, the Night Elves needed renewal, and the Forsaken needed new leadership. We can now move forward to other plotlines.

    Only one I would've retconned would've been Time Traveling Space Orcs but even that was salvaged with the mag'har allied race questline. I am at this point neutral about seeing that place again now that they've, via time-skip, killed off any "redundant" characters.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2022-08-19 at 03:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by angrywithmygod View Post
    Honestly Shadowlands is like the Last jedi where it kills the antagonist screws up all the characters and tries to promote the mary sue(anduin) and redeem the bad guy(sylvanas). Best thing the story could do is forget it ever existed and move on and jusst play it off as some sort of mass hallucination.
    "Promote the Mary Sue"

    Anduin is anything BUT a "Gary Stu" (Male Mary Sue) this expac wot???

    And the Jailer at least was his own guy that managed to do shit...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejiko View Post
    Everything after Legion didn`t happen, no BfA, no Shadowlands.

    There is no overarching and grand narrative anymore, only side stories.
    New lands, new faces and new problems that need solving.

    No super evil robots with the power to "unmake reality", no one god above all others.
    More focus on myths and legends, of stories relating to creatures and creations of unknowable origins.
    Less focus on actually meeting and seeing them.
    What you're wanting is classic WoW to MoP.

    What we're entering now is 10.0. Gotta get with the times my friend. We've explored most of the legends and myths.

  19. #139
    Pandaren Monk Grazrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I would retcon it completely out of the game. I would rewrite BFA as there's likeable things in the expansion's lore and things to salvage but honestly there's nothing worth that pushed the expansion's lore forward other than Sylvanas shifting her alignment and having blue eyes. No one important died. No one important grew. No one gives a shit. And I don't either.
    No. There is nothing bad about Shadowlands. The real problem with the writing happened in Bfa. Where we had a massive alliance bais deus ex machina who turned the Horde into a laughing stock. If any addon should be deleted for its awful writing it should be Bfa.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Obviously not. For its many faults it dealt with the fallout from BFA. Sylvanas needed consequences, the Night Elves needed renewal, and the Forsaken needed new leadership. We can now move forward to other plotlines.

    Only one I would've retconned would've been Time Traveling Space Orcs but even that was salvaged with the mag'har allied race questline. I am at this point neutral about seeing that place again now that they've, via time-skip, killed off any "redundant" characters.
    It didn't. Sylvanas will always be the true leader of the Forsaken. That usurper Calia is nothing but an alliance spy meant to undermine Horde politics.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    Seriously, how they thought that the Shadowlands would be a cool idea that they could manage? Nobody thought about the ENORMOUS implications and damage to EVERY future content that they come up with?
    It could have been fine if Blizzard didn't just double down on stupid and make the shadowlands the new #1 vacation spot for anyone who wants to go. I really don't understand what they were thinking there. The portal shoulda been closed at the end and our memories of the entire ordeal wiped. We'd know it happened, but we'd have no knowledge of the afterlife again.

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