Poll: Should flex mythic raiding exist?

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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    What flex?

    I ain't said nothing about flex.
    What I replied to was about having the same lock-out rule as Normal/Heroic.

    Opening that up after cross-realm would let a lot of players play Mythic who are without guilds.
    In fact, that's the whole purpose of Cross-realm.
    Apologies, I didn't read the post before the one you were responding to. There are a bunch of different arguments going on at once.

    Regardless, guilds still farm post-HoF and all the argumentation that I made against this (mainly guilds would be compelled to sell IDs) still applies. I agree that it's better for PuGs but I think it's worse for the overall health of the game.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Apologies, I didn't read the post before the one you were responding to. There are a bunch of different arguments going on at once.

    Regardless, guilds still farm post-HoF and all the argumentation that I made against this (mainly guilds would be compelled to sell IDs) still applies. I agree that it's better for PuGs but I think it's worse for the overall health of the game.
    How would it be worse for the overall health of the game?

    Cross-realm is opened after guilds that are serious about clearing the content as a 20-man team have done just that.
    Mind you, we are talking about multiple months here.

    The role of cross-realm Mythic is that people who don't have a guild or have a Mythic-dedicated guild can take a shot.
    Let's say, 5 people from a HC only guild have the time and determination to push further and finally they can find others.

    I have no idea what this "compelled to sell IDs" is supposed to mean.
    We literally had examples of guilds selling Hall of Fame spots.
    Actual top guilds are selling Mythic runs way before they actually clear the whole raid. They don't care if cross-realm is enabled or not.

    The only thing that the loot restriction does is invalidate people from doing the content.
    I have been doing Mythic pugging since Argus, and people are usually fine with trying with randoms but there is not much you can do when 1 or 2 people just up and leave after you defeated the first 1-2 bosses on Mythic.
    New people won't join because they would lose out on loot from those bosses and you will never be able to re-assemble the same 20 people to try again later.

    It literally only opens up the game for more people which is the healthiest thing I can imagine.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    How would it be worse for the overall health of the game?

    Cross-realm is opened after guilds that are serious about clearing the content as a 20-man team have done just that.
    Mind you, we are talking about multiple months here.

    The role of cross-realm Mythic is that people who don't have a guild or have a Mythic-dedicated guild can take a shot.
    Let's say, 5 people from a HC only guild have the time and determination to push further and finally they can find others.

    I have no idea what this "compelled to sell IDs" is supposed to mean.
    We literally had examples of guilds selling Hall of Fame spots.
    Actual top guilds are selling Mythic runs way before they actually clear the whole raid. They don't care if cross-realm is enabled or not.

    The only thing that the loot restriction does is invalidate people from doing the content.
    I have been doing Mythic pugging since Argus, and people are usually fine with trying with randoms but there is not much you can do when 1 or 2 people just up and leave after you defeated the first 1-2 bosses on Mythic.
    New people won't join because they would lose out on loot from those bosses and you will never be able to re-assemble the same 20 people to try again later.

    It literally only opens up the game for more people which is the healthiest thing I can imagine.
    Better guilds would park IDs at certain boss and then they'd sell them to worse guilds. This is especially true if there's a "roadblock" boss. Take Anduin, for example, better guilds could easily sell IDs post-Anduin which drop better gear but are arguably easier. It's great to imagine that things would just pan out the way they do right now with Heroic IDs but I think in practice it'll just lead to all kinds of degeneracy that largely makes Mythic raiding worse than it is without it.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Better guilds would park IDs at certain boss and then they'd sell them to worse guilds. This is especially true if there's a "roadblock" boss. Take Anduin, for example, better guilds could easily sell IDs post-Anduin which drop better gear but are arguably easier. It's great to imagine that things would just pan out the way they do right now with Heroic IDs but I think in practice it'll just lead to all kinds of degeneracy that largely makes Mythic raiding worse than it is without it.
    I mean, but who cares?
    It's already cross-realm at that point, which means Hall of Fame is already closed.

    Also, this is such a tiny fraction of the playerbase that I doubt even 10% of this very specific group of people would even buy such services.
    As I said, if someone wants to buy Mythic bosses they won't wait around until cross-realm is open.

    Also also, let's say that all of this is true: so what?
    706 guild cleared Anduin before cross-realm and only 800 more guilds cleared him since. As Anduin is the 8th boss we can easily rule out any pug kills.
    How many guilds do you think would actually give a fuck about spending actual money on something like what you described AFTER the hall of fame is closed so that you can with a certainty say that this would "damage" the health of the game?

    The people doing this are already less than 1% of the playerbase.
    Even if you would argue that at least 50% of these guilds would resort to buying lock-outs for free gear, then why are these kills evenly distributed over the past 3 months?
    Cross-realm came out on May 31 (EU). The latest Anduin kill I saw on raider.io was on 18/08/2022.
    Why wouldn't they just buy the boost and not suffer for 3 months?

    The issue you are trying to portray would effect so few people that it is basically non-existent.
    Like, I don't even know why would any raid, we are talking 20 people here who play together weekly, decide to spend their irl money on a lock-out for bosses that they cant even kill cause they cannot even kill Anduin before them.... What kind of argument is this?

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    I mean, but who cares?
    It's already cross-realm at that point, which means Hall of Fame is already closed.

    Also, this is such a tiny fraction of the playerbase that I doubt even 10% of this very specific group of people would even buy such services.
    As I said, if someone wants to buy Mythic bosses they won't wait around until cross-realm is open.

    Also also, let's say that all of this is true: so what?
    706 guild cleared Anduin before cross-realm and only 800 more guilds cleared him since. As Anduin is the 8th boss we can easily rule out any pug kills.
    How many guilds do you think would actually give a fuck about spending actual money on something like what you described AFTER the hall of fame is closed so that you can with a certainty say that this would "damage" the health of the game?

    The people doing this are already less than 1% of the playerbase.
    Even if you would argue that at least 50% of these guilds would resort to buying lock-outs for free gear, then why are these kills evenly distributed over the past 3 months?
    Cross-realm came out on May 31 (EU). The latest Anduin kill I saw on raider.io was on 18/08/2022.
    Why wouldn't they just buy the boost and not suffer for 3 months?

    The issue you are trying to portray would effect so few people that it is basically non-existent.
    Like, I don't even know why would any raid, we are talking 20 people here who play together weekly, decide to spend their irl money on a lock-out for bosses that they cant even kill cause they cannot even kill Anduin before them.... What kind of argument is this?
    Discounting the fact that RMT is against the ToS, why are you assuming that it'd be bought with RL money? Even mid-level Mythic guilds can sell Heroic boosts for gold. If there's enough of a market for selling raid lockouts, this is the kind of thing that would dramatically increase the number of boosts because guilds will now be aggressively seeking to afford the ability to purchase them. It just makes the whole boosting economy even more profitable -- something for which I'd argue the game needs less incentive.

    We're better off with the system we have right now.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-08-22 at 01:09 AM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Discounting the fact that RMT is against the ToS, why are you assuming that it'd be bought with RL money? Even mid-level Mythic guilds can sell Heroic boosts for gold. If there's enough of a market for selling raid lockouts, this is the kind of thing that would dramatically increase the number of boosts because guilds will now be aggressively seeking to afford the ability to purchase them. It just makes the whole boosting economy even more profitable -- something for which I'd argue the game needs less incentive.

    We're better off with the system we have right now.
    Lol I used to sell anduin lockouts on my alt in the first couple weeks cus my guild seeded a lockout so they wouldn't have to kill the lower 7.
    You have no idea how profitable that would be (i mean you do, lol)

  7. #307
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Anduin might not even be the best example. Imagine a real roadblock of a mid tier boss like pre-nerf Halondrus was or for a boss that remained a mid tier roadblock for a long time, HFC's Gorefiend. Skipping past them does unlock easier bosses with better or at least different loot.

  8. #308
    I don't think flex mythic raiding should exist, because I don't think mythic raiding should exist.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If Blizzard keeps putting items like the Jailer weapon and Sigil in raids and keeping them exclusive to raiding then that's all the motivation needed.
    I fully agree - and never understood why they keep doing that. Or better, i understand but it just creates friction on everyone who likes A but has to do B to perform well.

    Special weapons and trinkets should be designed so BiS for a specific content drops from that content. I'm fine with random armor pieces because the stats are usually sidegrades and with the creation catalyst (which i hope returns as a stable feature each patch) and crafted gear in DF we have all plenty of options to get gear.

    I don't think it's too much to farm for a couple trinkets in M+ and another 2 in raid if you want to do both. If anything if you like only one of them you just need to do the content you like.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Discounting the fact that RMT is against the ToS, why are you assuming that it'd be bought with RL money? Even mid-level Mythic guilds can sell Heroic boosts for gold. If there's enough of a market for selling raid lockouts, this is the kind of thing that would dramatically increase the number of boosts because guilds will now be aggressively seeking to afford the ability to purchase them. It just makes the whole boosting economy even more profitable -- something for which I'd argue the game needs less incentive.

    We're better off with the system we have right now.
    Don't think this would be the case. If someone buys X boosts to get a specific item, it's only a matter how how many times he's going to buy it - the time it takes is irrelevant. If someone wants only curve, he's done with one.

    What i think would happen is that we would have a way bigger spike at the beginning with a huge drop shortly after. Which is all the people that also now play until they get what they want and then freeze. I don't see issues in removing this part of the playerbase in one or two weeks instead of one month.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  10. #310
    No flex creates more problems than it solves.

    Mythic raiding needs to be substantially easier than it has been in recent times.

    If you manage to get ~25 people together and have them show up 2 or 3 evenings a week and they're not completely idiotic you should be able to clear Mythic. That has not been the case for a long time, if you don't have very good players you'll never get far. And that's the problem, nobody has fun being told by the game you suck, you're too bad for this difficulty, or you won't ever clear it.

    Difficulty/challenge exists to be overcome, Mythic difficulty for the vast majority of players cannot be overcome. Therefore it's a failure.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-09-04 at 12:55 PM.

  11. #311
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    How would it be worse for the overall health of the game?

    Cross-realm is opened after guilds that are serious about clearing the content as a 20-man team have done just that.
    Mind you, we are talking about multiple months here.
    Keep in mind, this will change rapidly once Hall of Fame is no longer faction based. The moment HoF is just about the first 100 guilds and not waiting for 100 Alliance guilds, you'll start seeing it open in 2-3 months at most (obviously faster than it takes to complete for Horde since there are a few Alliance guilds that complete it reasonably early and that's not counting any positive effects that cross faction will have).

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Keep in mind, this will change rapidly once Hall of Fame is no longer faction based. The moment HoF is just about the first 100 guilds and not waiting for 100 Alliance guilds, you'll start seeing it open in 2-3 months at most (obviously faster than it takes to complete for Horde since there are a few Alliance guilds that complete it reasonably early and that's not counting any positive effects that cross faction will have).
    Yea, so?

    Even the more reason to do it. More time people can play.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    No flex creates more problems than it solves.

    Mythic raiding needs to be substantially easier than it has been in recent times.

    If you manage to get ~25 people together and have them show up 2 or 3 evenings a week and they're not completely idiotic you should be able to clear Mythic. That has not been the case for a long time, if you don't have very good players you'll never get far. And that's the problem, nobody has fun being told by the game you suck, you're too bad for this difficulty, or you won't ever clear it.

    Difficulty/challenge exists to be overcome, Mythic difficulty for the vast majority of players cannot be overcome. Therefore it's a failure.
    I tend to agree with this completely. People who are told they suck wont stick around to get better they will just leave as Cataclysm proved once they made dungeons great again. The other aspect is how little raiding has evolved in terms of accessibility, the amount of community expectations that is required is another aspect that makes raiding almost impossible to take part of in a reliable fashion. For instance i generally only play tanks and i do not like having specific times to be online as i have gotten older which is counter productive to raiding for instance would a mythic guild want me who will not be able to make every raid who only wants to tank? My dedication to raiding is akin to someone who plays in random ladder in LoL or Fortnite its either pick up and play or not at all.

  14. #314
    I do not care. Mythic raiding is played by a way too small minority.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    I do not care. Mythic raiding is played by a way too small minority.
    100% this, far too much of the game is balanced and focused on content barely anyone does anymore

  16. #316
    You actually gave some excellent reasons not to do it. Instead of destroying mythic, I believe that blizzard should work on enhancing the incentives for raiding heroic. I have yet to come across a defence for why it is impossible to gather 20 players for a mythic raid. As long as Blizzard only lifts the restrictions for cross realm mythic, you could either add some people to your roster or add some pugs for early mythic bosses.

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