Should flex mythic raiding exist in DF?

[callipygoustp]

Absolutely NOT

[Xath]

That’s the whole point. WoW is declining because it’s -not- for ’most people’. Most people are playing other games. That’s what Blizzard needs to change.

Wow is declining because 90% of the population started playing in college or high school and now have gotten to the point in their life where finding time for mmos is difficult. Having a scheduled time that people are relying on us to be there actually tends to make families more understanding than just hoping on something like league that we can play whenever.

[Biomega]

More people play wow for pet battling than play wow for the second half of mythic raid level difficulty. We don't center the entire game's systems around pet battlers, so why should we center it around 1% of players who want to beat their face against a mythic endboss for two months? Should they have have something to do? Sure. Should the rest of the game be carefully throttled to appease them? No.

And how, pray tell, is "the entire game's systems" centered around the 1% of mythic raiders?

This is groundless hyperbole, nothing more. If mythic is too hard for you, do heroic. That's why we HAVE different difficulties - to have something for all kinds of players, not just for the majority.

[Lolites]

People are benched in every tier for a whole variety of reasons. Benching players is a part of Mythic, unless you're one of the insane groups who runs with exactly 20 raiders.

not sure why it would be insane to have 20, we had exactly 20 in raid group, though there were few people in guild who usualy run hc only wiling and able to jump in, but fair enough...
though its a bit different to bench 2-3 people and to bench 2-12... and especialy if you bench them always on the same bosses as they are easier to do in smaller groups...

[AwkwardSquirtle]

not sure why it would be insane to have 20, we had exactly 20 in raid group, though there were few people in guild who usualy run hc only wiling and able to jump in, but fair enough...
though its a bit different to bench 2-3 people and to bench 2-12... and especialy if you bench them always on the same bosses as they are easier to do in smaller groups...

Yeah you see those guys there? They're called a bench. You do not have an exact 20.

[NineSpine]

And how, pray tell, is "the entire game's systems" centered around the 1% of mythic raiders?

This is groundless hyperbole, nothing more. If mythic is too hard for you, do heroic. That's why we HAVE different difficulties - to have something for all kinds of players, not just for the majority.

1. We are all impacted by the gear inflation problem that too many difficulties causes.
2. We are all impacted by the balance problems that the difficulty arms race causes.
3. We are all impacted by the class homogenization that high difficulty content has required.
4. We are all impacted by Blizzard designing Mythic first and then making the other difficulties watered down versions of the fights.
5. We are all impacted by rewards outside of raids being throttled so as not to hurt the feelings of mythic raiders.

[Biomega]

1. We are all impacted by the gear inflation problem that too many difficulties causes.

Do you think gear inflation would stop without mythic difficulty? Or would it GET WORSE as people have more access to the best gear, and start demanding higher and higher gear for trivial content?

2. We are all impacted by the balance problems that the difficulty arms race causes.

How? If you're not raiding mythic, how does what happens in mythic balance impact you?

3. We are all impacted by the class homogenization that high difficulty content has required.

What class homogenization? People are complaining there isn't ENOUGH homogenization, which is why Warlocks get all the good stuff and also top-dog DPS. M+ is to blame for this FAR more than mythic raiding ever was or ever will be.

4. We are all impacted by Blizzard designing Mythic first and then making the other difficulties watered down versions of the fights.

And I'm sure it's entirely fair and unbiased to portray it that way, rather than saying Mythic is upgraded heroic, which puts the baseline somewhere else. What about mythic balance in particular has ever impacted heroic raiders, and how do you know that it was BECAUSE OF mythic specifically?

5. We are all impacted by rewards outside of raids being throttled so as not to hurt the feelings of mythic raiders.

Like what? And how is any of it exclusive to mythic raiders, and wouldn't be the case if there was only heroic?

[Swnem]

Sure. It would increase participation. It would lead to a slight difficulty lowering, but i don't see that as a problem.
The less the game is aimed at pro gamers and instead to the community of players at large, the better.

[Ezyah]

Imagine the reality check when most of the lfr heroes would discover it s not the 20 peoples requirement that is holding them from killing mythic bosses.

[NineSpine]

Do you think gear inflation would stop without mythic difficulty? Or would it GET WORSE as people have more access to the best gear, and start demanding higher and higher gear for trivial content?

Less tiers of gear means less gear inflation. This isn't exactly calculus. Do you need me to explain further why little number is smaller than big number?

How? If you're not raiding mythic, how does what happens in mythic balance impact you?

I already suspected you were totally dishonest and intellectually bankrupt from your argument that little numbers aren't smaller than big numbers, but now you want me to explainn to you how class balance changes impact everyone, not just people doing mythic raids?

What class homogenization? People are complaining there isn't ENOUGH homogenization, which is why Warlocks get all the good stuff and also top-dog DPS. M+ is to blame for this FAR more than mythic raiding ever was or ever will be.

Mythic+ is garbage too, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The classes are ridiculously homogenized. Almost every class has almost every utility. It used to be that a couple of Classe shad an interrupt, a couple had a self heal, a couple had each kind of buff, etc..

And I'm sure it's entirely fair and unbiased to portray it that way, rather than saying Mythic is upgraded heroic, which puts the baseline somewhere else. What about mythic balance in particular has ever impacted heroic raiders, and how do you know that it was BECAUSE OF mythic specifically?

Blizzard has said they design mythic first and then work downward from there, so necessarily mythic represents the original vision and everything else is dumbed down until you get to LFR which is comically bad versions of the fights missing half the mechanics.

Like what? And how is any of it exclusive to mythic raiders, and wouldn't be the case if there was only heroic?

You are talking like 90% of players do heroic. Mythic is done by less than 5% of players,. Heroic is done by about 10%. These are niche activities. Even normal is only done by 20%. Substantive rewards have been removed from all content that isn't M+. normal+ raids, and rated pvp.

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Imagine the reality check when most of the lfr heroes would discover it s not the 20 peoples requirement that is holding them from killing mythic bosses.

Well I thought the reality check would be when all the wow no-lifers realized the game doesn't have enough players anymore to justify big expansions and lots of patches, but instead y'all are still living in your fantasy world. But hey, at least Blizzard isn't hurting your precious feelings by appealing to other people.

[Cracked]

I already suspected you were totally dishonest and intellectually bankrupt from your argument that little numbers aren't smaller than big numbers, but now you want me to explainn to you how class balance changes impact everyone, not just people doing mythic raids?

This is just so dumb to argue. In LoL less than half of players ever play a ranked match and only something like 3% are at a level where champion balance actually matters. Should they balance champions based on how they perform in nonranked matches..? Like sure, it's nice IF they have a chance to take it into account, but absolutely shouldn't be the driving factor.

[Biomega]

Less tiers of gear means less gear inflation.

Historically this has NOT been true. "9,000+ gearscore or no invite" would like a word.

It also makes no logical sense, because of what inflation IS - if you increase supply, then the value goes DOWN, not up. Which means prices RISE, not fall.

It may not be calculus, but it's pretty elementary stuff.

I already suspected you were totally dishonest and intellectually bankrupt from your argument that little numbers aren't smaller than big numbers, but now you want me to explainn to you how class balance changes impact everyone, not just people doing mythic raids?

Yes please. Explain how it is MYTHIC RAIDING that causes these problems. That's your claim, and to ask you to please back it up with evidence is apparently "dishonest" and "intellectually bankrupt". Or maybe that was just because you didn't know what inflation was?

Mythic+ is garbage too, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The classes are ridiculously homogenized. Almost every class has almost every utility. It used to be that a couple of Classe shad an interrupt, a couple had a self heal, a couple had each kind of buff, etc..

And you want to what, go back to the days of not inviting people that can't interrupt?

You know a lot of these changes happened WAY before M+ or Mythic raiding were ever a thing, right? And they happened for a reason - because people are more interested in not sucking than they are in class fantasy, and staring at a mob chain casting in your face just because you happen to be a class with no interrupt was not something people enjoyed. WITHOUT MYTHIC RAIDING EVER BEING A THING.

Also: hyperbole much? "Almost every class has almost every utility", are you trolling or just blatantly ignorant? And you have the gall to talk about intellectual dishonest? HOOO BOI.

Blizzard has said they design mythic first and then work downward from there, so necessarily mythic represents the original vision and everything else is dumbed down until you get to LFR which is comically bad versions of the fights missing half the mechanics.

Okay, and how does that somehow make the heroic experience worse? Is this just a matter of pride, you feeling you're only getting mythic's "leftovers"? Or do you have, say, an ACTUAL example where this had negative impact, and that WOULDN'T have happened without mythic?

You are talking like 90% of players do heroic. Mythic is done by less than 5% of players,. Heroic is done by about 10%. These are niche activities. Even normal is only done by 20%. Substantive rewards have been removed from all content that isn't M+. normal+ raids, and rated pvp.

Okay, and if you're not doing those activities, why do you need gear of that level?

But let's be clear: I agree that the reward system in WoW is more than a little fucked up at the moment. It desperately needs horizontal progression of some kind, and a deemphasizing of gear/power as the sole and primary driver of EVERYTHING. But that's not mythic raiding's fault, and wouldn't go away if mythic raiding was removed. Those issues go back longer, and run far deeper.

Also: why does it matter what the %s are? Are you saying that only the majority of people deserve content, or something? Or are you saying that all content dev time should be in exact proportion to the number of people doing that content? Or what? What's the point you're trying to make with those percentages?

[glowpipe]

There are a ton of tools for recruiting? Try using warcraft logs or wow progress or guildsofwow or even just the recruiting forums. Yes that requires you to actually spend some time setting them up and then maybe an hour a week checking them but that isn't satan tier trash.

Have you recvruited a lot of people lately? because we have.. been trying. We tried reddit, discord servers, official wow servers, warcraftlogs, guildsofwow and and a few other niche places. And we spent hours PER day, and not only one. We got 2 new players in about a month worth of effort, other than that its been dead. Game is rather dead atm so there is not a big pool of players

Compared to previous expansions, it is infact satan tier trash

[Xath]

Blizzard has said they design mythic first and then work downward from there, so necessarily mythic represents the original vision and everything else is dumbed down until you get to LFR which is comically bad versions of the fights missing half the mechanics.

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You realize that means if all difficulties went away we would just be going back to them just making their vision which means you kill about 3 maybe 4 bosses per tier and never see the endbosses. The only reason you are seeing full tiers right now is because they are creating dumbed down versions of the original fight concept and making it so it isn't a set number of people will just mean you get about a third of the way through the tier and then you don't clear any more. The limiter here is ability to deal with mechanics not number of people.

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Have you recvruited a lot of people lately? because we have.. been trying. We tried reddit, discord servers, official wow servers, warcraftlogs, guildsofwow and and a few other niche places. And we spent hours PER day, and not only one. We got 2 new players in about a month worth of effort, other than that its been dead. Game is rather dead atm so there is not a big pool of players

Compared to previous expansions, it is infact satan tier trash

This is a rather unique situation a lot of people have no interest in dealing with the s4 experimental stuff plus a bunch of guilds that usually get CE didn't because of how short S3 was. It will be back to normal in DF most likely.

[Th3Scourge]

No, mythic raiding is fine. They just need to not dial the difficulty up to 11 next time, and then have to nerf the living fuck out of the raid over and over then cut the tier short for no reason

What an absolute clusterfuck SoF turned out to be.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Almost every class has almost every utility.

Er...what? lol

This is probably the biggest balance issue in the game. The good utility isn't remotely shared at all, and that's on top of the persistent buffs (like arcane intellect etc) that force you to bring certain classes, for better or worse.

Even interrupts aren't even remotely the same. Shaman/Melee/Ranged and then moonkin and shadow priests sitting out there wishing they had any of the above

Like, you just can't have classes out there with 0 defensives or whatever in the modern game. I think they've done a pretty good job varying it up (everyone having a 1min CD that reduces dmg by 20% would be super boring), but it's really noticeable on some classes that have nothing (and are unpopular and underrepresented bc of it)

[sensei-]

Less tiers of gear means less gear inflation. This isn't exactly calculus. Do you need me to explain further why little number is smaller than big number?



I already suspected you were totally dishonest and intellectually bankrupt from your argument that little numbers aren't smaller than big numbers, but now you want me to explainn to you how class balance changes impact everyone, not just people doing mythic raids?



Mythic+ is garbage too, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The classes are ridiculously homogenized. Almost every class has almost every utility. It used to be that a couple of Classe shad an interrupt, a couple had a self heal, a couple had each kind of buff, etc..



Blizzard has said they design mythic first and then work downward from there, so necessarily mythic represents the original vision and everything else is dumbed down until you get to LFR which is comically bad versions of the fights missing half the mechanics.



You are talking like 90% of players do heroic. Mythic is done by less than 5% of players,. Heroic is done by about 10%. These are niche activities. Even normal is only done by 20%. Substantive rewards have been removed from all content that isn't M+. normal+ raids, and rated pvp.

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Well I thought the reality check would be when all the wow no-lifers realized the game doesn't have enough players anymore to justify big expansions and lots of patches, but instead y'all are still living in your fantasy world. But hey, at least Blizzard isn't hurting your precious feelings by appealing to other people.

Brilliant post. Some day the ones still nolifing a dead game have to wake up and realize this type of archaic design is not sustainable. The whole concept of raiding has to be reimagined and it has to stop being the main pillar of WoW max level gaming. If the endgame (the thing you do during your subbed months) is designed for 5% of your customers can you really be shocked why 95% of the players have left?

[Nymrohd]

Alternatively, remove raid gear lockouts and/or let raiding award loot a tier above what it drops like M+ does. Equalize raiding and M+ when it comes to rewards. So if I can run a dungeon any number of times I want for loot and I get loot a tier above my effort for clearing it (let's be frank, well above; M+15 is easier by a wide margin than HC endbosses and about as hard as early HC bosses) why not make the same true for raids? Let people just clear the raid again if they want in the same lockout. And reward Mythic loot at the Vault for clearing Heroic.

And yes obviously it would fuck up the race to world first. Who cares? It would revitalize HC raiding immensely. If Blizzard wanted the RWF to actually work properly they'd have moved it in a Tournament realm ages ago.

[sensei-]

Alternatively, remove raid gear lockouts and/or let raiding award loot a tier above what it drops like M+ does. Equalize raiding and M+ when it comes to rewards. So if I can run a dungeon any number of times I want for loot and I get loot a tier above my effort for clearing it (let's be frank, well above; M+15 is easier by a wide margin than HC endbosses and about as hard as early HC bosses) why not make the same true for raids? Let people just clear the raid again if they want in the same lockout. And reward Mythic loot at the Vault for clearing Heroic.

And yes obviously it would fuck up the race to world first. Who cares? It would revitalize HC raiding immensely. If Blizzard wanted the RWF to actually work properly they'd have moved it in a Tournament realm ages ago.

Exactly. They can do M+ invitational so they can do Raid+ invitational.

[Relapses]

Alternatively, remove raid gear lockouts and/or let raiding award loot a tier above what it drops like M+ does. Equalize raiding and M+ when it comes to rewards. So if I can run a dungeon any number of times I want for loot and I get loot a tier above my effort for clearing it (let's be frank, well above; M+15 is easier by a wide margin than HC endbosses and about as hard as early HC bosses) why not make the same true for raids? Let people just clear the raid again if they want in the same lockout. And reward Mythic loot at the Vault for clearing Heroic.

And yes obviously it would fuck up the race to world first. Who cares? It would revitalize HC raiding immensely. If Blizzard wanted the RWF to actually work properly they'd have moved it in a Tournament realm ages ago.

lmfao -- yeah, Blizzard's just gonna remove the single most relevant advertising machine that's ever existed for WoW -- one which they have to invest absolutely no money in for it to be successful -- because ::checks notes:: a couple mad Redditors can't Mythic raid.