Should flex mythic raiding exist in DF?

[sensei-]

lmfao -- yeah, Blizzard's just gonna remove the single most relevant advertising machine that's ever existed for WoW -- one which they have to invest absolutely no money in for it to be successful -- because ::checks notes:: a couple mad Redditors can't Mythic raid.

Relevant? LOL. For one week per year, raiders are on Twitch and Youtube looking at hardcore raiders raid. The fact that the shining moment of WoW is RWF just shows how dire straits the game is in.

These threads are sad. Massive strawmen being thrown nonstop because you can’t handle the fact WoW needs to be reimagined and innovated again. Better class balance, a new dungeon or a new raid won’t save this game. The fact you think the people who are suggesting ways to rescue the WoW universe from incompetent devs stuck in a hamster wheel are just bitching because they aren’t part of the 5000 raiders in the world devoting their lives to scheduled gaming just shows how desperate you are to defend your lifestyle. Nobody wants that lifestyle, but the game is so big and the possibilities so vast that it’s a pity to watch all this squandering and lost potential.

You also miss the fact that you can have your cake and eat it too. Even if we had Raid+ you could still be awesome and top of the RIO charts. You could also devote your life to the game and play at the Raid+ invitational on tournament realms. But the concept for most of the people would have changed and the game with a complete reprioritization would be more easily approachable.

[NineSpine]

You realize that means if all difficulties went away we would just be going back to them just making their vision which means you kill about 3 maybe 4 bosses per tier and never see the endbosses. The only reason you are seeing full tiers right now is because they are creating dumbed down versions of the original fight concept and making it so it isn't a set number of people will just mean you get about a third of the way through the tier and then you don't clear any more. The limiter here is ability to deal with mechanics not number of people.

Two difficulties: Normal and Heroic. That is all that is needed.

- - - Updated - - -

Historically this has NOT been true. "9,000+ gearscore or no invite" would like a word.

It also makes no logical sense, because of what inflation IS - if you increase supply, then the value goes DOWN, not up. Which means prices RISE, not fall.

It may not be calculus, but it's pretty elementary stuff.

Inflation just means to get bigger. Economic inflation is when prices get bigger. Gear inflation is when gear power levels get bigger.

You aren't just engaging in boring word games, you aren't even right about what economic inflation is. It's not just when supply of money inflates. It's when prices inflate, regardless of cause. Inflation can even happen while the money supply contracts.

Yes please. Explain how it is MYTHIC RAIDING that causes these problems. That's your claim, and to ask you to please back it up with evidence is apparently "dishonest" and "intellectually bankrupt". Or maybe that was just because you didn't know what inflation was?

If Blizzard balances the game around mythic raiding, it is necessarily not balancing the game around the average player. Balance is not static from the top to the bottom. You can actually see this if you look at parses. The disparities of the highest end parses are radically different from the disparities of the average player parses.

And you want to what, go back to the days of not inviting people that can't interrupt?

Yeah, it would be a real shame if we designed content to accommodate different classes. It's so much more "fun" to design all the classes to handle the content the same exact same way.

You know a lot of these changes happened WAY before M+ or Mythic raiding were ever a thing, right? And they happened for a reason - because people are more interested in not sucking than they are in class fantasy, and staring at a mob chain casting in your face just because you happen to be a class with no interrupt was not something people enjoyed. WITHOUT MYTHIC RAIDING EVER BEING A THING.

50% of players don't ever set foot in M+. Only 20% ever do normal+ raids. Most players want a fun class fantasy. You are proving my point. The game gets designed for a handful of tryhards rather than the average player. That's why everything fun gets taken away from the average player.

Also: hyperbole much? "Almost every class has almost every utility", are you trolling or just blatantly ignorant? And you have the gall to talk about intellectual dishonest? HOOO BOI.

Compare the utility available to every class in Wrath to the utility available to every class in Shadowlands.

Okay, and how does that somehow make the heroic experience worse? Is this just a matter of pride, you feeling you're only getting mythic's "leftovers"? Or do you have, say, an ACTUAL example where this had negative impact, and that WOULDN'T have happened without mythic?

If you design an encounter a certain way, for the mechanics to interact a certain way, and then after the fact you take parts out for lower difficulties, you are necessarily giving the lower difficulties a mitigated, less complete experience.

Okay, and if you're not doing those activities, why do you need gear of that level?

Do you need me to explain to you why gearing up and power progression are fun in an RPG? Do you need me to talk to you like a child?

But let's be clear: I agree that the reward system in WoW is more than a little fucked up at the moment. It desperately needs horizontal progression of some kind, and a deemphasizing of gear/power as the sole and primary driver of EVERYTHING. But that's not mythic raiding's fault, and wouldn't go away if mythic raiding was removed. Those issues go back longer, and run far deeper.[

Also: why does it matter what the %s are? Are you saying that only the majority of people deserve content, or something? Or are you saying that all content dev time should be in exact proportion to the number of people doing that content? Or what? What's the point you're trying to make with those percentages?

I'm saying the game should be designed for the average player first and the niche player second. Would you be happy if you disliked pet battles but every patch clearly put half the resources into a new giant pet battle dungeon and we got one raid per expansion? Stop with the stupid ass questions that have obvious answers.

[Xath]

Again if they take away mythic they aren't going to do braindead mode they are going to have a single difficulty and the fight difficulty will be from mid heroic early to late mythic late. You will never see an end boss again.

[MrLachyG]

No. /10char

[Argorwal]

Full 10-30 flex would probably be a crap show in mythic, but I feel they could easily do 18-22 flex and retain enough of the spirit of the difficulty.

It’s not like tuning is sacred when Blizz massacred the latest raid.

[ClassicPeon]

Mythic should be flex or 10 people.

Smaller raid sizes are overall better for the majority.

WF needs to adapt to whats best for the game. So does every other elitist.

[Biomega]

Inflation just means to get bigger. Economic inflation is when prices get bigger. Gear inflation is when gear power levels get bigger.

That's a mischaracterization. Nobody would take "gear inflation" to simply mean "ilvl increases"; practically everyone would correlate it with economic inflation, which connotes a decrease in purchasing power, i.e. what "prices get bigger" actually means. Why? Because the corollary of that is that the VALUE per unit GOES DOWN, which is the actually important part of the whole thing, not the fact that "number go up".

This is a very dishonest way of arguing, ngl.

It's not just when supply of money inflates. It's when prices inflate, regardless of cause. Inflation can even happen while the money supply contracts.

And I never said it's ONLY that. When supply goes up, value tends to go down; that's a very simple, very basic rule of economics. The fact that inflation can ALSO happen due to other effects has no bearing on the accuracy of that statement.

Again, highly dishonest argument, that actually missed the whole point - which is that we HAD the situation where everyone could easily acquire high-end gear, and what happened was EXACTLY what I said, i.e. that everyone started increasing their expectations, effectively lowering the relative "value" of gear within the community. And on a smaller scale, that's STILL what's happening every season, where you can see people's ilvl expectations and "requirements" go up steadily as gear availability increases over time.

So, you're wrong on every conceivable level here.

If Blizzard balances the game around mythic raiding, it is necessarily not balancing the game around the average player.

Okay.

Now prove that Blizzard is 1. balancing "the game" around mythic raiding; and 2. that this means DETRIMENTAL balance for non-mythic players.

Because that's what actually matters. Blizzard's intent isn't really relevant - the RESULT is. If their intent is to balance for mythic raiding (which you still need to prove first, not just assert) but the EFFECT is that it's more balanced even outside of mythic, that isn't a problem. It's only a problem if it causes DETRIMENT outside of mythic, and you have to prove that it does before this point can have merit.

Also: what SHOULD Blizzard "balance around"? Normal mode? Could then not heroic players complain that "the game" is balanced around normal-mode raiding? Or should it be heroic mode? In which case can't then the normal-mode raiders complain that "the game" is balanced around heroic mode? How's all this work, exactly, in your mind? Is this just a "majority rules, fuck the rest" kind of situation?

Yeah, it would be a real shame if we designed content to accommodate different classes. It's so much more "fun" to design all the classes to handle the content the same exact same way.

Which, again, is needless - and INACCURATE - hyperbole.

What you're purporting here is a kind of diversity that was never a reality, and given WoW's mechanical limitations, can never be a reality. There aren't 30+ "ways" of "handling content". There's always going to be overlap. The question is only, how much, and where. And experience has shown that what people REALLY want is to just go and do shit, not find 500 new creative ways of handling a mob casting because nobody can interrupt. That's not what WoW is, and it never was that, either.

You're attaching unsubstantiated value to a kind of "diversity" that flies in the face of mechanical demands; you neither prove that this actually HAS value (especially value that trumps just being able to handle the mechanics), nor do you prove HOW this could even be done, since it historically wasn't done in the past either (some things just sucked back in the day, like Fire Mage in Molten Core or whatever).

Most players want a fun class fantasy.

But at WHAT COST. Of course it's to just throw self-evident shit out there. "Everyone wants the game to be good!" Yeah, thanks for the insight, you have shown us that not many people want things to actively suck, that is a real revelation I must say.

THIS DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN IN A VACUUM. You don't just flip a switch that goes "fun class fantasy ON!", and neither can you just go "mythic raiding OFF fun class fantasy ON = it's what most people want" because those are not simple binaries, nor are they actually in any sort of simplistic antagonistic relationship.

As I said initially, the shift away from fantasy IN FAVOR OF mechanical viability happened way before M+ or mythic raids were as much as a fart in their creators' bowels. And do you know why that happened? Because 'most people' actually DIDN'T want to TRADE fun class fantasy for bad mechanics. It was more important to them to have a good time playing than it was for things to play super into the class fantasy. Now, again: this wasn't a simple binary, and we didn't just go from 100-0 to 0-100. These are just degrees. But it's fallacious and grossly ignorant to assert or even suggest that mythic raiding is somehow to blame here, or that you can simply tell what "most people" want AND WHAT THEY'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP FOR IT. That last part being the actual important part, if you want to state anything more than a vapid truism.

The game gets designed for a handful of tryhards rather than the average player. That's why everything fun gets taken away from the average player.

Prove it. You're throwing out all sorts of wild accusations that repeat some Wowhead comment's inane ranting, but this is FAR from easily shown or obvious.

Compare the utility available to every class in Wrath to the utility available to every class in Shadowlands.

Which proves that "some classes have more utility now than they did in WotLK", and not that "Almost every class has almost every utility" like you claimed. That's why I'm saying what you claimed was hyperbolic bullshit, and it is.

How much, then, is "almost every class". How many utilities are there in the set of "every utility", and what percentage of them are available to "almost every class"? Got some actual NUMBERS here, or is this just ass-pull fantasy you made up on the spot? Or are you seriously saying "we have more utility now than in WotLK, therefore almost everyone has almost everything" with a straight face?

If you design an encounter a certain way, for the mechanics to interact a certain way, and then after the fact you take parts out for lower difficulties, you are necessarily giving the lower difficulties a mitigated, less complete experience.

That's a self-evident truth. It doesn't say anything about the QUALITY of what you're getting, just that you're getting less QUANTITY - which is not in and of itself a bad thing.

Oh, and, by the way: this WOULD NOT CHANGE if you took mythic away. You'd still get the same amount of complexity in heroic as you are now, because that's what constitutes the difficulty. So you're really not bothered by what you're getting at all, you're bothered that mythic people are GETTING MORE, and you're not good enough to do that, too; and so your solution is "okay let's just get rid of them, so I'm the one getting the most!".

That's incredibly petty, not gonna lie.

Do you need me to explain to you why gearing up and power progression are fun in an RPG? Do you need me to talk to you like a child?

Reading what I said would be cool, for a start. You even quoted the part where I talked about this, but either your attention span doesn't survive line breaks, or you're being intentionally dishonest.

I'm saying the game should be designed for the average player first and the niche player second.

Okay, let's accept that (even though it's an incredibly reductive statement).

Now prove that this isn't actually how it works. Prove that "the game" is designed around "niche players" - not just that niche players also get content or that there isn't an exact match between percentages of engagement and percentages of dev resources, but that "the game" is designed "for niche players first".

That's a VERY bold claim. I hope you have more to back this up than "mythic players are only 1%! every class has everything! mythic players came to my house last night and ate my cereal and that's why I can't find my left sock! Ion personally cursed me to fail my algebra test!".

Would you be happy if you disliked pet battles but every patch clearly put half the resources into a new giant pet battle dungeon and we got one raid per expansion? Stop with the stupid ass questions that have obvious answers.

The problem here is that you think all content requires the same effort, and that there's any kind of direct proportionality between resource use and quality. There isn't. Some content takes far more resources to develop than other content; and for some content, a lot of work may increase quality tremendously, while for other content a lot of work may still not increase quality by all that much. That's... how development works. It's not a 1:1 kind of deal, never has been, never will be. MUCH LESS SO in a giant team effort like WoW where resources aren't simply fungible, and all the art designers in the world are not going to help your class balance team do better work.

You have no idea how things actually work, do you? You're just repeating some talking points you picked up on angry YouTube videos, without thinking for two seconds about how much of it actually makes sense OR IS EVEN TRUE TO BEGIN WITH.

[Alvito]

10 person heroic raiding, when heroic was the difficulty cap, was my favorite raiding time. Better raids and systems have been introduced over the years so it wasn't specifically the content. I do very much miss those raid groups. 20 and 25 were always so much more of a pain for recruiting, coordinating and managing people.

[NineSpine]

That's a mischaracterization. Nobody would take "gear inflation" to simply mean "ilvl increases"; practically everyone would correlate it with economic inflation, which connotes a decrease in purchasing power, i.e. what "prices get bigger" actually means. Why? Because the corollary of that is that the VALUE per unit GOES DOWN, which is the actually important part of the whole thing, not the fact that "number go up".

This is a very dishonest way of arguing, ngl.

This has nothing to do with economic inflation. Nobody thinks gear inflation has anything to do with economic inflation. You are just inventing that and then claiming I'm dishonest. What's dishonest is saying "That word means something else in a different context, so if I apply the rules of that other context to this, it doesn't make sense!"

And I never said it's ONLY that. When supply goes up, value tends to go down; that's a very simple, very basic rule of economics. The fact that inflation can ALSO happen due to other effects has no bearing on the accuracy of that statement.

It does because you tried to define economic inflation as explicitly based on supply. This is a direct quote of what you said inflation IS (and you felt the condescending need to capitalize IS): "if you increase supply, then the value goes DOWN, not up."

Don't literally define inflation as an increase in supply and then cry that I hold you to that.

Again, highly dishonest argument, that actually missed the whole point - which is that we HAD the situation where everyone could easily acquire high-end gear, and what happened was EXACTLY what I said, i.e. that everyone started increasing their expectations, effectively lowering the relative "value" of gear within the community. And on a smaller scale, that's STILL what's happening every season, where you can see people's ilvl expectations and "requirements" go up steadily as gear availability increases over time.

We had no such situation. We had a nested RNG system where some people would end up with great gear and little effort and other people would end up with shit. This created stratification that we wouldn't have with a deterministic system. The randomized stratification created by the RNG was the problem, not the rising expectations. Nobody says it is unfair that a new expansion comes out and now you are expected to have a higher gear level. Why? Because everyone can get to the new baseline.

So, you're wrong on every conceivable level here.

Okay.

Now prove that Blizzard is 1. balancing "the game" around mythic raiding; and 2. that this means DETRIMENTAL balance for non-mythic players.

Blizzard has never made a balance change and said "This will make things worse at Mythic level, but it balances everyone else so it is a good tradeoff."

it is necessarily detrimental to balance the game for mythic rather than the average player, because the spec disparities at mythic level do not reflect the spec disparities for the average player.

Because that's what actually matters. Blizzard's intent isn't really relevant - the RESULT is. If their intent is to balance for mythic raiding (which you still need to prove first, not just assert) but the EFFECT is that it's more balanced even outside of mythic, that isn't a problem. It's only a problem if it causes DETRIMENT outside of mythic, and you have to prove that it does before this point can have merit.

You are just being intentionally obtuse here.

Also: what SHOULD Blizzard "balance around"? Normal mode? Could then not heroic players complain that "the game" is balanced around normal-mode raiding? Or should it be heroic mode? In which case can't then the normal-mode raiders complain that "the game" is balanced around heroic mode? How's all this work, exactly, in your mind? Is this just a "majority rules, fuck the rest" kind of situation?

The game should be balanced for the average player, which is somewhere around normal. That's certainly closer than mythic. The way balance will generally work is that it will fall off the further you are from the baseline you choose. By balancing for the average, you balance for the maximum number of people. If you balance for just the bottom or just the top, you necessarily balance for fewer people.

What you're purporting here is a kind of diversity that was never a reality, and given WoW's mechanical limitations, can never be a reality. There aren't 30+ "ways" of "handling content". There's always going to be overlap. The question is only, how much, and where. And experience has shown that what people REALLY want is to just go and do shit, not find 500 new creative ways of handling a mob casting because nobody can interrupt. That's not what WoW is, and it never was that, either.

That's exactly how the game worked before the homogenization.

You're attaching unsubstantiated value to a kind of "diversity" that flies in the face of mechanical demands; you neither prove that this actually HAS value (especially value that trumps just being able to handle the mechanics), nor do you prove HOW this could even be done, since it historically wasn't done in the past either (some things just sucked back in the day, like Fire Mage in Molten Core or whatever).


But at WHAT COST. Of course it's to just throw self-evident shit out there. "Everyone wants the game to be good!" Yeah, thanks for the insight, you have shown us that not many people want things to actively suck, that is a real revelation I must say.

THIS DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN IN A VACUUM. You don't just flip a switch that goes "fun class fantasy ON!", and neither can you just go "mythic raiding OFF fun class fantasy ON = it's what most people want" because those are not simple binaries, nor are they actually in any sort of simplistic antagonistic relationship.

As I said initially, the shift away from fantasy IN FAVOR OF mechanical viability happened way before M+ or mythic raids were as much as a fart in their creators' bowels. And do you know why that happened? Because 'most people' actually DIDN'T want to TRADE fun class fantasy for bad mechanics. It was more important to them to have a good time playing than it was for things to play super into the class fantasy. Now, again: this wasn't a simple binary, and we didn't just go from 100-0 to 0-100. These are just degrees. But it's fallacious and grossly ignorant to assert or even suggest that mythic raiding is somehow to blame here, or that you can simply tell what "most people" want AND WHAT THEY'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP FOR IT. That last part being the actual important part, if you want to state anything more than a vapid truism.


Prove it. You're throwing out all sorts of wild accusations that repeat some Wowhead comment's inane ranting, but this is FAR from easily shown or obvious.


Which proves that "some classes have more utility now than they did in WotLK", and not that "Almost every class has almost every utility" like you claimed. That's why I'm saying what you claimed was hyperbolic bullshit, and it is.

How much, then, is "almost every class". How many utilities are there in the set of "every utility", and what percentage of them are available to "almost every class"? Got some actual NUMBERS here, or is this just ass-pull fantasy you made up on the spot? Or are you seriously saying "we have more utility now than in WotLK, therefore almost everyone has almost everything" with a straight face?


That's a self-evident truth. It doesn't say anything about the QUALITY of what you're getting, just that you're getting less QUANTITY - which is not in and of itself a bad thing.

Oh, and, by the way: this WOULD NOT CHANGE if you took mythic away. You'd still get the same amount of complexity in heroic as you are now, because that's what constitutes the difficulty. So you're really not bothered by what you're getting at all, you're bothered that mythic people are GETTING MORE, and you're not good enough to do that, too; and so your solution is "okay let's just get rid of them, so I'm the one getting the most!".

That's incredibly petty, not gonna lie.


Reading what I said would be cool, for a start. You even quoted the part where I talked about this, but either your attention span doesn't survive line breaks, or you're being intentionally dishonest.


Okay, let's accept that (even though it's an incredibly reductive statement).

Now prove that this isn't actually how it works. Prove that "the game" is designed around "niche players" - not just that niche players also get content or that there isn't an exact match between percentages of engagement and percentages of dev resources, but that "the game" is designed "for niche players first".

That's a VERY bold claim. I hope you have more to back this up than "mythic players are only 1%! every class has everything! mythic players came to my house last night and ate my cereal and that's why I can't find my left sock! Ion personally cursed me to fail my algebra test!".


The problem here is that you think all content requires the same effort, and that there's any kind of direct proportionality between resource use and quality. There isn't. Some content takes far more resources to develop than other content; and for some content, a lot of work may increase quality tremendously, while for other content a lot of work may still not increase quality by all that much. That's... how development works. It's not a 1:1 kind of deal, never has been, never will be. MUCH LESS SO in a giant team effort like WoW where resources aren't simply fungible, and all the art designers in the world are not going to help your class balance team do better work.

You have no idea how things actually work, do you? You're just repeating some talking points you picked up on angry YouTube videos, without thinking for two seconds about how much of it actually makes sense OR IS EVEN TRUE TO BEGIN WITH.

Im not replying to each of these points. This is ridiculous. Learn to be more succinct.

[Vasilisa]

It should but it won't because it's impossible to balance.

[Sanguinerd]

Mythic should be a cosmetic only difficulty and m+ should not reward higher than heroic ilvl either.

But if thats not possbile then no, because they "balance" it for 20.

[Relapses]

Relevant? LOL. For one week per year, raiders are on Twitch and Youtube looking at hardcore raiders raid. The fact that the shining moment of WoW is RWF just shows how dire straits the game is in.

It's far, far more than one week per year. The last RWF had some of the highest consistent viewership over the course of slightly over a month than any other game on Twitch. We're talking viewers who sit down and watch for two to twelve hours at a time. This is the kind of shit advertisers splooge their pants just thinking about so it's absolutely no surprise there's such a high demand for nearly 24/7 coverage of the event while it's on. (It's also why casters are able to get paid $200+/hr.) Reducing the impact of the RWF so you can make terrible fucking arguments about how it's not necessary isn't exactly compelling.

These threads are sad. Massive strawmen being thrown nonstop because you can’t handle the fact WoW needs to be reimagined and innovated again. Better class balance, a new dungeon or a new raid won’t save this game. The fact you think the people who are suggesting ways to rescue the WoW universe from incompetent devs stuck in a hamster wheel are just bitching because they aren’t part of the 5000 raiders in the world devoting their lives to scheduled gaming just shows how desperate you are to defend your lifestyle. Nobody wants that lifestyle, but the game is so big and the possibilities so vast that it’s a pity to watch all this squandering and lost potential.

You also miss the fact that you can have your cake and eat it too. Even if we had Raid+ you could still be awesome and top of the RIO charts. You could also devote your life to the game and play at the Raid+ invitational on tournament realms. But the concept for most of the people would have changed and the game with a complete reprioritization would be more easily approachable.

What's more sad are people like you who think that your opinions hold more weight than anybody else's and try to look down on others who have the audacity to simply enjoy the game for what it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Mythic should be a cosmetic only difficulty and m+ should not reward higher than heroic ilvl either.

If Mythic is cosmetic only wouldn't that mean that Heroic item level is now the highest obtainable in the game? You're effectively asking for no changes to M+ so it doesn't make much sense why you even bothered to mention it.

- - - Updated - - -

Im not replying to each of these points. This is ridiculous. Learn to be more succinct.

This may be one of the single most ironic things you've ever written. I've had words with @Biomega too but he's not out in left field here; for you to completely dismiss a fairly well thought-out destruction of your poor argumentation is a wee bit dismissive.

[Kralljin]

Mythic should be flex or 10 people.

Smaller raid sizes are overall better for the majority.

WF needs to adapt to whats best for the game. So does every other elitist.

Problem aren't the players, it's the class / encounter design.

For example, Resto Shaman famously doesn't really work in smaller raidsizes because CH is hardly functional.
A Disc Priest, as per usual, is mandatory because absorbs are OP, so in your average raid, that only leaves you with a single flexible healer spot.
Then there's Locks with their Portal and Healthstones.

That's just some examples from the top of my head.
That's why they introduced 20man Mythic, so they could design encounters with more freedom rather than by restraint what a regular 10man raid could only do without homogenizing classes.

That's basically your options:
1. Design Classes around 10man raiding (=homogenization)
2. Accept that the highest difficulty in the game is a clownfiesta balance wise, with all the ramifications of the Meta being defined by an inheritely imbalanced difficulty

[Lolites]

people who are suggesting ways to rescue the WoW universe

this will be absolutely shocking to you, but people are not against "rescuing wow" (lets leave the fact that after almost 2decades its still at or near the top of its genre so its hardly needs rescuing), people are against your ideas bcs they are TERRIBLE and would make the game worse to them...
your ideas about the game are not some objective truth, they are just your personal subjective opinions, which a lot of people dont really share...

[NineSpine]

This may be one of the single most ironic things you've ever written. I've had words with @Biomega too but he's not out in left field here; for you to completely dismiss a fairly well thought-out destruction of your poor argumentation is a wee bit dismissive.

His points are not without value, but this is a forum and he has a penchant for writing these giant tirades that border on Gish galloping.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

For outstanding game growth they would either bring 10 man mythic back or so some sort of flex mythic. Although I got my doubts mythic will ever flex. But 10 man was taken away pretty much just based on bullshit and over night killed like a ton of guilds for no reason. Outside of making some people feel better about themselves in bigger raid teams. Raiding participation has fallen like a stone since that day when it comes to the high end content like mythic/or at the time when it was called heroic.

Just an insane decision. Only made more looney by holding onto the current model that probably will see the end of mythic content in a few expansions when its just small handful of guilds that bother anymore.

[sensei-]

this will be absolutely shocking to you, but people are not against "rescuing wow" (lets leave the fact that after almost 2decades its still at or near the top of its genre so its hardly needs rescuing), people are against your ideas bcs they are TERRIBLE and would make the game worse to them...
your ideas about the game are not some objective truth, they are just your personal subjective opinions, which a lot of people dont really share...

Wake up. The potential millions of missing customers aren’t posting on MMO-Champion and arguing with five cynical mythic raiders who have sunk more hours into a video game than they’d like to admit publicly. So please, do state the obvious that my ideas aren’t the objective truth, but don’t follow it up with some ridiculous statement that ’most people’ would not agree with me, when the only ones arguing with me are a couple conservatists desperately clinging to the eternal permanence of the existing status quo.

You still don’t get it. It does not matter if every single WoW player hated new WoW and quit forever, if simultaneously the game got 10 million new subscribers. You are not important. The franchise is.

[Eosia]

No. Mythic Raiding is specifically designed to be a set number of people so that they can design the fights under the old raid paradigm from Vanilla/BC. It's also the only difficulty level you can game by dropping the raid size.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Wake up. The potential millions of missing customers aren’t posting on MMO-Champion and arguing with five cynical mythic raiders who have sunk more hours into a video game than they’d like to admit publicly. So please, do state the obvious that my ideas aren’t the objective truth, but don’t follow it up with some ridiculous statement that ’most people’ would not agree with me, when the only ones arguing with me are a couple conservatists desperately clinging to the eternal permanence of the existing status quo.

You still don’t get it. It does not matter if every single WoW player hated new WoW and quit forever, if simultaneously the game got 10 million new subscribers. You are not important. The franchise is.

I mean, there's no real evidence that this could ever happen though, right? Like, the audience for a TV show or book or movie isn't "everyone who could potentially consume it." There is nothing you could do to make a traditional romance novel palatable to people who don't like romance novels without alienating your actual audience! This is super important!

This is not to say WoW shouldn't change at all or anything, I would love to see some changes to raiding as well. But it's not like a redesign of this magnitude isn't without major costs and potential risks. And it's very rare for any product to change so completely as to entirely replace their existing users in exchange for 5x the new ones.

Basically, there's a reason most products focus on the customers they have (and have had). It's one reason classic was so brilliant as a business choice, even if im not personally interested in it at all

[Relapses]

I mean, there's no real evidence that this could ever happen though, right? Like, the audience for a TV show or book or movie isn't "everyone who could potentially consume it." There is nothing you could do to make a traditional romance novel palatable to people who don't like romance novels without alienating your actual audience! This is super important!

This is not to say WoW shouldn't change at all or anything, I would love to see some changes to raiding as well. But it's not like a redesign of this magnitude isn't without major costs and potential risks. And it's very rare for any product to change so completely as to entirely replace their existing users in exchange for 5x the new ones.

Basically, there's a reason most products focus on the customers they have (and have had). It's one reason classic was so brilliant as a business choice, even if im not personally interested in it at all

It's exceptionally skeptical to suggest this because the purported 5x increase in players exists only in the minds of the people making these suggestions. WoW's design direction has always been iterative. I have no idea why players think Blizzard's just gonna come in all of a sudden and go, "yeah fuck this, we changing errything."