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  1. #1

    Thumbs up Isn't it unecessarily juvenile that they only go for the "bigger and badder villain"?

    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
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  2. #2
    Nothing's wrong with it, you just have a huge diverse audience so for every one person asking to be an adventurer again you have 5 asking why everyone is picking up poop again. It's impossible to make everyone happy and Blizzard can only tell their stories at a one-expansion-at-a-time basis.

    And consider that stories that involve politics with neutral races are usually how Blizzard peppers in 'non-big bad' content into the game. You'll have your adventurer moments when you go deal with the gnolls or centaurs and all that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-08 at 04:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
    You're more or less echoing the sentiment the nigh-entire fanbase has been espousing since.... WOD, Legion?

    One of the main selling points of Dragonflight is a "return to Azeroth," elaborated on further as a return to the more grounded concepts that you're referencing.

    Whether you think the "bad > big bad > bigger bad" style of narrative is juvenile or not, it serves its purpose. Having a threat progression is more or less necessary for a long running storyline like Warcraft. We see it in all other forms of media and it works if it's done well right? It's just that in the context of Warcraft, they haven't been handling their progression very well.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2022-08-08 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    Having a threat progression is more or less necessary for a long running storyline like Warcraft.
    No, this is only neccessary from a game mechanics standpoint for an MMO. They always need bigger baddies to kill for loot. Hence MMO's don't lend themselves to good storytelling, period. Game mechanics dictate what the lore can do.

    For the story of Warcraft as a whole it's not needed. In the RTS games we didn't need this powercreep. WoW doesn't lend itself for a good story, Warcraft as RTS was a whole lot better in that regard, the only downside there is that as an RTS it didn't have as much opportunity to flesh out the common folks' story as opposed to armies and leaders.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.
    we literaly fought old god in vanila, being equal or just a bit short of titan level power...
    im not saying the enemies we fight now arent way too powerfull storywise, but saying vanila was just "weak humanoids and minor demons" is either ignorance or outright lie...

  6. #6
    A good story doesnt need that. Mediocre does. The cosmic level threaths had to be invented so sargeras has a reason to exist. Then somebody came up with the idea that every aspect had to have sargeras level shotcaller.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    No, this is only neccessary from a game mechanics standpoint for an MMO. They always need bigger baddies to kill for loot. Hence MMO's don't lend themselves to good storytelling, period. Game mechanics dictate what the lore can do.

    For the story of Warcraft as a whole it's not needed. In the RTS games we didn't need this powercreep. WoW doesn't lend itself for a good story, Warcraft as RTS was a whole lot better in that regard, the only downside there is that as an RTS it didn't have as much opportunity to flesh out the common folks' story as opposed to armies and leaders.
    That is clearly not true. Just cause WoW devs can't do it, it doesn't mean other mmorpg's haven't successfully done it. I can think of SWTOR, GW2 and FFXIV.
    It's possible to have an mmorpg with good storytelling.

    The problem is the WoW dev team, not the medium, and tbh this bigger baddy rule is unnecessary from a storytelling pov. Every bigger bad we fought we had help. The WoW champions are not that strong, they have awesome teamwork and great help.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-08-08 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
    Warcrafts 1 and 2 were about an alien invasion, where Warcraft 3 was about a demonic alien invasion. Big or small isn't the problem, execution is the problem.

  9. #9
    this is an issue with all universes that go on too long (especially with the same characters).

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    Hence MMO's don't lend themselves to good storytelling, period.
    FFXIV and SWTOR? Both are known for their storytelling.

    But powercreep can be a good tool for narrative progression can't it? When done well it displays to the audience the heroes' progression of power/capability. But if done with heavy amounts of cheese, like Shadowlands for example, it will hamper the story further.

    Explain the afterlife? Brilliant, completely delegitimatize every Azerothian culture's mythology.
    Asspulled cenobite rip-off (The Jailer) was responsible for everything the entire time? Excellent, another hot steamy dookie on the 30 year old universe that took Warcraft from hit RTS to hit MMO.
    But the worst affront to the story, I think is captured perfectly by the cinematic where we finally see Arthas! They told us we would see Arthas, after all. What a great cinematic with Arthas.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2022-08-08 at 05:34 PM.

  11. #11
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
    I wouldn't use the word "juvenile" in it, it is common for writing to have a big bad. We do need a filler expansion, a real one, where many characters get development, and many more introduced who can become friends or foes in the future.
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  12. #12
    How else will my character eventually hit super ultra pure instinct instant death form to battle the baddest of the infinite parallel universes over the complete annihilation of said infinite universes and timelines?

  13. #13
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    No, it is not unecessarily juvenile. It's actually a most logical path.

  14. #14
    We fought an old god in the Silithus patch.
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    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
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    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  15. #15
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I agree.

    Blizzard has (or maybe had, we'll have to see) this notion that BIG = EPIC!!!!! so we got Deathwing which was handled about as badly as it was possible to be and became a big joke at the end of Cataclysm once we saw the raid. The problem really is that Blizzard is artificially deciding in advance what is and isn't supposed to be EPIC!!!!!. That can almost 100% be laid at the door of Afrasiabi who killed off a lot of established lore characters because that's EPIC!!!!! and big, bad monsters who are also EPIC!!!!! No one yet has been smart enough to see the problem so we get more world-destroying events—EPIC!!!!!—and character deaths with little time spent on building up replacement lore characters. Because back stories are generally not epic at first.

    It was a sad attempt to recreate that moment in BC when you walk into Outland for the first time. I would actually say that this bizarre attitude about all of this has been a bigger problem in the game than any amount of system talk. It absolutely is juvenile and precludes doing a lot of smaller, interesting stories because, well: "We can't have that. It's not EPIC!!!!! enough. Go bigger. Go badder. Be EPIC!!!!!. Because when we promote this expansion we'll be saying the word EPIC!!!!! out loud at least every 100 words or so. So it must be."

    It's hack, amateurish story-telling that ignores common sense (which even a fantasy story needs) and substitutes brainless size for thought.

    It's one reason why I think Mists is more fondly remembered in retrospect. Many of the stories that supported the expansion generally were smaller and played together very well in a narrative sense. That was Metzen. He is missed.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-08-08 at 08:07 PM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
    I don't think you understand why the writers do it.
    This is not some form of "We need to constantly one up ourselves! always improve, thus the bigger the villain the better!" or some sort of "VROOM VROOM YOU KILLED TITAN++ LOOK AT HOW AWESOME YOU ARE!".

    The new writers, are ALL new. And when it comes to art there's a bunch of very, very, VERY bitter people that want their work to be the best, or the only existing one. If the WoW writers were painters, they would be the kind of person to scratch and ruin the Mona Lisa just because they don't want Da Vinci to be better than them. Their ego is very fragile and they have no respect for other people's work.
    That's the WoW writers when it comes to lore.

    The previous writers, specially Chris Metzen, clarified that the Burning Legion were the main bad guys of the franchise, now that they are gone (both the Legion and the old writers), the new writers need to spit on the work of the previous ones just out of pride and narcissism, so they retcon the story to make Void, Old Gods, Death, Death Gods, etc stronger than what was stated to be an actual threat before. This writers don't do it because they watch too much Marvel and want to impress zoomer players, they do it because by remaking the story they are the ones remembered since in the game at least you no longer have evidence of what the old writers considered to be a threat anymore.

    If it makes you feel better though, Dragonflight villain seems the most pathetic antagonists we had up to date, just a bunch of dragons saying "nooo we can't let humans use magic!" which is a rehash of Cataclysm, and you have the shill army defending such a petty villain because "we no longer have artifacts so we go back to killing just weak villains! so what if in Vanilla we killed an Elemental God, an Old God and Kel Thuzad?"

  17. #17
    It's a video game lol. People want explosions and firelords rising from ashes. Imagine they release Call of Duty and you play as a civilian. Plus you're character is meant to be progressing in power throughout the expansion as a hero

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It seems like that from a narrative standpoint: vanilla is nothing compared to shadowlands; bunch of weak humanoids and others fighting each other and some minor demons; and now you somehow fight with forces that can change the multiverse with a snap of their fingers.

    What's wrong with going small, since it's not really the bigness that matters, but the quality of the journey?
    Because sometimes the expansion story just calls for it.

    Vanilla had 4 main baddies, 5 if you want to include Onyxia. Ragnaros, Nefarian, C'thun, and Kel'thuzad. The story worked that these were episodic. There was no real, centralized storyline for it. But it was kind of no different. We reeled from existential crisis to existential crisis like drunken sailors. First Ragnaros had to be stopped. Then the children of Deathwing needed to be dealt with. Oh Noez! Insect freaks in Silithus + Old God = Bad Time! And finally "that one guy from WarCraft III is back!"

    But then we get to the Burning Crusade where we dealt with the problems in Karazhan and Gru'ul as well as neutralized Magtheridon and Hellfire Citadel. Then we neutralized Illidan's lieutenants, Kael'thas and Lady Va'shj before going after him next as well as going back in time to make sure Archimonde was defeated during the Third War at the Battle of Mt Hyjal. Then we had to stop Kil'jaeden from being summoned into Azerorth by way of a fel-corrupted Kael'thas and the Sunwell.

    But the Wrath of the Lich King was pretty much "Big Baddy" with the Lich King with just the minor stopover of dealing with an old god that popped up in all the chaos. Then Deathwing picked that moment to reshape the world a bit and we had to deal with him.

    MoP gave us more episodic things like Vanilla, but really it was kind of a head-spinner if you look at it. First we had to deal with the Mantid and the Sha of Fear. Then the threat shifted to the resurrected Thunder King and the Mo'gu. Then we had to depose Garrosh because he went a little insane.

    Legion brought us back to that progressed story arc with us putting an end to Xavius in the Emerald Nightmare and neutralizing the Nightbourne whose ruler had aligned with the Legion. This allowed us to then assault the Tomb of Sargeras which was the portal by which the Legion was pouring into Azeroth and we had to shut it down. Then we headed to the Legion homeworld of Argus to finally stop them.

    BfA kind of messed this up a bit. As Horde, we knew why we had to go into Uldir and deal with G'huun but, and someone correct me if I am wrong, the Alliance didn't really have a reason. Things picked up on the "war" side of things with the attack on Drazar'alor, and continued with Azshara making her grand re-entrance followed by the release of N'Zoth.

    The problem with Shadowlands is people make comments about the pacing and jumping ahead in the story but forgetting that, and I do not care what Blizzard says to the contrary, but a patch was cut. They'll never admit to it but, Expansions have had 4-5 patches to them. WoD and Shadowlands are the only ones that had 3 (I am including the x.0 patches since each of those had raids and served as "chapters" in the expansion). Both of those have missing chapters. WoD was supposed to have a raid revolving around Shattrath. And a lot of exposition about Zovaal is missing and that fact is painfully obvious.

    People keep bringing up "the multiverse" but really keep in mind that WoD as a story line probably would not have happened if it weren't for the fact that it launched at the time Warcraft as a franchise was celebrating its 25th year. Especially since they kind of put the lid on it by making it canon that certain entities did not have "alternate" versions. Like Archimonde at the end of WoD was the same Archimonde that we fought during the Third War on Mt Hyjal and, as such, he's dead and gone just like Kil'jaeden. So we don't have to worry about "Alternate Kil'jaeden" or "Alternate Sargeras" popping up. I mean really, how much have they used it since? Once, to introduce the Mag'har Allied race. And maybe to also give us a hint that the light isn't always "lawful good"

  19. #19
    It is kind of hard to scale things in a game where there is a mode that has guaranteed success. No matter how big the bad guy is the hero will always defeat them with trivial ease. It's one if the many problems I had with wow moving away from the tiered content design over different tiers of difficulty.

  20. #20
    Power creep has always been a problem. Just look at comicbook characters.

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