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  1. #201
    A streamer made a comment about this that made sense right 6-8 years ago about why LFG/LFR is considered anti-social.

    Before them, you had natural segregation of players, and its the things you go through that turn you toxic, apart from some weirdos that are toxic by default cause some another mental illness is happening there, but i doubt those were a lot.

    Before the dungeon finders, someone that played the game more, was better or whatever you wanna call it, had no reason to play or ever meet someone less skilled in PvE content.

    In Vanilla, you knew the raiding guilds, the most progressed players, you filtered and segregated based on that, in TBC and Wrath the same, it doesnt mean those players were good, but you had a pool of players to choose from.

    But as example, someone more dedicated to the game at the time, would never meet someone that would take 8 months to reach max level, or someone that was raiding Black Temple, would never meet someone that was running Karazhan 1 year after and so on.

    The fuck up, and why the system (RDF) is problematic is that Blizzard added rewards behind those systems which forced those players to meet.

    Eventually you will have toxic situations because its completely different worlds and skills of gaming, that they SHOULD NEVER MEET.

    I have gotten kicked in Wrath dungeon finder "for going too fast" on Utgarde Keep and "ruining the experience" still baffled about that 13 years after , the rare occasions i am not a tank or a healer to level fast on alts, i saw 3 times of people complaining about "ruining their experience" because of geared mains boosting their friends on leveling dungeons, both in BFA and SL and how WoW is ruined and it shouldnt be allowed.

    I mean, i have seen some of the calmest people i know that never chat, actually go haywire in chat and Alt+F4 by situations in the last 13 years in RDF cause they simply cant be bothered.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-08-27 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    -snip_.
    Tldr the only unsocial thing about RDF is people actually end up doing things with people they normally wouldnt...like it didn't make people toxic those people already were and now you're in a dungeon with them

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    You're correct on everything you're saying OP but you see, allowing casual players to get gear makes the gatekeepers feel less special. They need master looters to keep the rabble in their place, so by making it non-queued content they can control it more. WoW classic is being made for the elitists to continue their gatekeeping fantasies, we had proof of this right away and it keeps being confirmed time and time again.

    Anyway what ruined WoW social interaction is what you're saying. Dungeons became about "get in and leave" because the reward systems stopped encouraging running a dungeon once, maybe twice, and instead encouraging spamming dungeons constantly when you hit max level. They gamified the system and people obviously followed suit.
    The "gatekeepers" earned their gear through commitment and skill but entitled D bags want to be patted on the head and told they deserve stuff that they don't for....being there? Just for paying for the game? Yeah I dunno. We can back and forth forever about who is right. The bottom line is MMOs appealed to the hardcore dedicated players FIRST, since their very inception and MOST of the history of the genre. Then some Facebook gaming Karen soccer mom mentality having MF'ers obsessed with feelings came in and decided there shouldn't be a game type for hardcore timewasting neckbeards like the people who MADE MMOs successful. I dunno. Maybe people feel like their hobby was intruded on by a bunch of soft jackasses that could have just played games MEANT to be more casual like Diablo or something. Who knows man. Also...casual players don't always suck...hell I'm more casual now, but when they do they sure ruin it for everyone else.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Tldr the only unsocial thing about RDF is people actually end up doing things with people they normally wouldnt...like it didn't make people toxic those people already were and now you're in a dungeon with them
    You completely missed the mark, only some weirdos are toxic, situations make you toxic my dude.

    There is a limit to patience.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    You know you can still que with friends even with rdf active correct?
    yes, I am aware. doesn't change anything in my statement. when you play the game a bit more seriously than is good for you, people will just solo queue etc to use their time as efficiently as possible. optimize the fun out of the game and all that.

    I'd prefer the game not to facilitate that scenario in the first place.

  6. #206
    News flash: RDF didn't ruin anything social about the game. It actually made the game so much better.

    If I want to "socialize", talk to people etc. then I'd do it when I feel like it. When I want to do a dungeon, then I want to do a dungeon. I don't want to wait in the nearest capital city, spam chat for an eternity to finally assemble a group, then be the ONLY player to move by myself to the dungeon summoning stone (even if its as close as Auchinduon) and wait for anyone else to arrive.

    1 hour later I am finally doing the dungeon and until then there was a minimum amount of chatting (if you consider typing "inv" and "123" as such). When a dungeon goes well then nobody is saying anything ever. When people are talking. then 90% of the time it is because they are flaming each other or just being toxic in general. The more people talk the higher the chance that someone ends up leaving (and replacing people is as everyone knows a pain in the ass compared to RDF).

    What a great experience

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    If someone has those things already, then RDF existing will have no impact on them in wotlk.

    Meanwhile, RDF not existing won't make people suddenly "have the time" to get involved in social aspects of the game.

    Back in either Cata or MoP Blizzard said as much; that if things like LFR and LFD didn't exist, it wouldn't "push people" to be more social; they just wouldn't do those activities.
    Yeah, not having RDF will just make people quit the game faster, because something as simple as doing a wrath heroic dungeon will feel like a huge waste of time, because most often you'd spend an equal amount of time assembling your group and getting to the dungeon.
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2022-08-28 at 06:04 PM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    yes, I am aware. doesn't change anything in my statement. when you play the game a bit more seriously than is good for you, people will just solo queue etc to use their time as efficiently as possible. optimize the fun out of the game and all that.

    I'd prefer the game not to facilitate that scenario in the first place.
    Every western MMO that has launched after WotLK without an LFD tool had to backtrack so hard on that decision that it wasn't even funny. And there are multiple good reasons for that: a) after the nth time doing a dungeon, you just want to get it done asap and the LFD is the best way to get going bar none. b) it gives the dps players a more realistic chance of getting a group than having to pay stupid amounts of gold to get a tank or a booster. c) it allows players to click the "queue" button and get on with playing the game while the group is formed, aka having fun with the game.

    You guys are constantly confusing the "joy" of organising raids (a twice-a-week activity) and the associated interactions with doing dungeons multiple times on a daily basis. You don't provide the tools for the majority of players to get these done and then the players will go as they have done in every other MMO that launched without the LFD tool. Because to your "optimise the fun out of the game" extreme there is the other side of the spectrum, the "I can't even play the game because they removed the most basic feature that MMOs have for the last 10+ years".

  8. #208
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    For me it was cross realm because it encourages toxic behaviour. High chance that you will never see those players again so who cares if you're a dick. That and the mute parties where nobody speaks a word no matter how hard I try to have a conversation. They just want to get through the dungeon asap for the rewards. Hard to fight human nature I guess.
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraenen View Post
    Even the very minor social connection you make while zooming through a dungeon is maintained in a same-server environment. When the people you're playing with just sort of disappear into the ether, there's a "concrete" connection to others that's lost. There's no opportunity to go "oh hey there's that priest I played with". This is all without considering the incentives/disincentives around instant teleporting, or the matchmaking system.
    I played since vanilla...people disappeared after the dungeon was done. Besides another flaw in your logic, is RDF can and was just server wide back then...they still "disappeared into the ether" as you put it. None of the connections I made in wow involved a random dungeon I spent a hour spamming for in Orgrimmar

  10. #210
    It was never directly about community or the social aspect of the game. It's all about player agency.

    Each little choice the player has matters, even if it seems like they don't. The point is to give players a choice in how they play, give them control, make the player actually do something in order to play the content they want. Yes, that does mean things as small as messaging another player to join a group. It means having to actually move your character to the location you want to be in. It means clicking on another player and then clicking on the summoning stone. It means trying to stay with the same dungeon group you had before because you know they are good players from the same server. It means actually caring about who is in your group and how you act as an individual because you WILL see them again.

    The primary issue with retail WoW is that they have created the path of least resistance to getting gear. For gaming, the path of least resistance is a bad thing. Some players need to understand that restrictions are a good thing. The most extreme example of no restrictions is you log in, gear spawns into your bags, you log out, who needs engaging gameplay when you can just be given what you want? Hell, just have "YOU WIN" scroll across the screen as soon as you login, why even play anything at all? That is the same exact feeling a lot of players get from RDF/LFR. If I'm just going to be given rewards and win for doing essentially nothing, what am I even playing for?

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I played since vanilla...people disappeared after the dungeon was done.
    Ahahaha, that is not making the argument you think it is. If everyone is leaving your group since vanilla, maybe it isn't everyone else that is the problem. But since you don't think there's a problem, it's you. You are the reason they left. The comment you are replying to is absolutely right, I'm not even on a big server and I run into people I played with over a decade ago.
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-08-29 at 01:04 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    What's even the point of having a game world if you just teleport around everywhere? Retail having instant teleports all over the place is what makes the world feel so tiny. There's no travel time.
    Do you do any m+ at all? There's no instant teleport(unless you complete the key on +20) and you have to do the classic way and frankly? It sucks and is an annoying timewaster that serves exactly zero purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    It was never directly about community or the social aspect of the game. It's all about player agency.

    Each little choice the player has matters, even if it seems like they don't. The point is to give players a choice in how they play, give them control, make the player actually do something in order to play the content they want. Yes, that does mean things as small as messaging another player to join a group. It means having to actually move your character to the location you want to be in. It means clicking on another player and then clicking on the summoning stone. It means trying to stay with the same dungeon group you had before because you know they are good players from the same server. It means actually caring about who is in your group and how you act as an individual because you WILL see them again..
    Do you play retail at all? Have you ever done m+?
    Everything you write above applies to that on retail.
    You will not see 95% of those players ever again. And none of those choices matters, not even a little bit. They're a timegate for blizzard to have better metrics, that's it.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    It was never directly about community or the social aspect of the game. It's all about player agency.
    Exactly. So in the time I have to play the game, I want to play the game and NOT faff around for an hour trying to get to the point where I can play the game. You want player agency? Simple, click "queue" on the LFD and then go out in the world and do exactly what you want- in other words, player agency for playing the game.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Do you play retail at all? Have you ever done m+?
    Everything you write above applies to that on retail.
    You will not see 95% of those players ever again. And none of those choices matters, not even a little bit. They're a timegate for blizzard to have better metrics, that's it.
    That's my point, that's why retail is such god awful dogshit. Wait, you think those choices apply to retail? Ahaha, no. Not even close.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    Exactly. So in the time I have to play the game, I want to play the game and NOT faff around for an hour trying to get to the point where I can play the game. You want player agency? Simple, click "queue" on the LFD and then go out in the world and do exactly what you want- in other words, player agency for playing the game.
    We have different standards for what is sufficient player agency. Pressing a button, being instantly teleported, steamrolling through stupid easy content, and then instantly teleporting out isn't my idea of sufficient player agency.

    Having to actually play the game to acquire gear is better imo. Having to actually move your character to the place that you want your character to be instead of instantly teleporting everywhere is better. Having to talk to another human being and having to keep in mind how you treat them is better.

    Just addressing the instant teleports, that single aspect alone devalues the game. Why have mages that can make portals, why have summoning stones, just let everyone teleport around wherever they want!
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-08-29 at 01:30 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    That's my point, that's why retail is such god awful dogshit.
    Then your point is that classic is such god awful dogshit?
    They're identical in that aspect, specially shadowlands being so disconnected and only a small minority will ever complete a +20 in time.

  15. #215
    RDF didn’t ruin the social aspect. People did. And rather than face themselves and fix their awful behavior, they nerd rage at blizzard to keep it out so they’re forced to behave.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Then your point is that classic is such god awful dogshit?
    They're identical in that aspect, specially shadowlands being so disconnected and only a small minority will ever complete a +20 in time.
    They're nothing alike? What are you trying to say?

    Wait. Do you really think retail has just as much player agency as classic? Wtf are you smoking?

    Edit: I'll clarify further. Players will always take the path of least resistance to getting gear. Retail is plagued with the path to least resistance. Classic you have one path to getting gear, not being a social outcast piece of shit toxic player. Mythics in retail have no where near close to the same level of player agency for this fact alone. You have less player agency in retail, you have to go through bullshit steamroll content over and over and over again before you even get to where mythics are a concern. And you can do that without interacting with ANYONE directly. Most players outright don't get to that point because of such content bloat. The differences between retail and classic are so vast there is literally nothing to compare and your fooling yourself if you really think they're anything alike.
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-08-29 at 01:39 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You completely missed the mark, only some weirdos are toxic, situations make you toxic my dude.

    There is a limit to patience.
    If "situations make you toxic" is your worldview... you've got problems. A lot of child abusers have the same defense, "I'm not a bad person but they just wouldn't stop crying!!" Is there a limit to patience then too? Or is it that some people are not equipped or well adjusted to tolerate friction and lash out.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    They're nothing alike? What are you trying to say?

    Wait. Do you really think retail has just as much player agency as classic? Wtf are you smoking?

    Edit: I'll clarify further. Players will always take the path of least resistance to getting gear. Retail is plagued with the path to least resistance. Classic you have one path to getting gear, not being a social outcast piece of shit toxic player. Mythics in retail have no where near close to the same level of player agency for this fact alone. You have less player agency in retail, you have to go through bullshit steamroll content over and over and over again before you even get to where mythics are a concern. Most players outright don't get to that point because of such content bloat.
    Reading comprehension, do you got it?
    You're ranting on about how every little choice matters, from clicking a summoning stone to god knows what in your mind.
    And i'm telling you (Who obvs dont play retail and haven't in a very long time)
    To complete a dungeon in retail or complete a dungeon in classic wow are identical.
    You have to form a group, you have to fly to the summoning stone and do all that stuff, identical in forming groups.
    There's also pretty much just one path to gear, which you would know if you played it.

    And i'm telling you, not in classic or retail does that matter fuck all for anything, it's just a time sink and there's no real social interactions being made anymore, thats some rose tinted glasses for a community that doesn't exist and will never exist again, players changed and so did the game.
    Now you can keep arguing if its for better or worse when your whole argument is flawed from the start.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Reading comprehension, do you got it?
    You're ranting on about how every little choice matters, from clicking a summoning stone to god knows what in your mind.
    And i'm telling you (Who obvs dont play retail and haven't in a very long time)
    To complete a dungeon in retail or complete a dungeon in classic wow are identical.
    You have to form a group, you have to fly to the summoning stone and do all that stuff, identical in forming groups.

    And i'm telling you, not in classic or retail does that matter fuck all for anything, it's just a time sink and there's no real social interactions being made anymore, thats some rose tinted glasses for a community that doesn't exist and will never exist again, players changed and so did the game.
    Now you can keep arguing if its for better or worse when your whole argument is flawed from the start.
    And I'm telling you time sinks are a good thing. They do foster an environment for being social whether you take advantage of it or not. That's what I mean when I say restrictions are a good thing. That goes back to the path of least resistance. Why have any resistance at all? Just give players gear, tell them they won, and roll the credits. Who needs gameplay when you can just win?

    Playing the game is damn time sink. The boss has health? That's just a time sink. I can't one shot everything? Time sink. I can't instantly teleport wherever I want? TIME SIIIINK!!!
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-08-29 at 01:51 PM.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    And I'm telling you time sinks are a good thing. They do foster an environment for being social whether you take advantage of it or not. That's what I mean when I say restrictions are a good thing. That goes back to the path of least resistance. Why have any resistance at all? Just give players gear, tell them they won, and roll the credits. Who needs gameplay when you can just win?

    The boss has health? That's just a time sink. I can't one shot everything? Time sink. I can't instantly teleport wherever I want? TIME SIIIINK!!!
    So not spending 1 hour to form a group and get to a dungeon is the same for you as showing up and being showered with gear

    Also, you completely ignored the part where I said that you leave the LFD tool do the boring tedium of getting a group while you go out and actually play the game. You know, the thing you are advocating for getting your gear, but somehow while you are making your argument you start confusing "playing the game" with "sitting around in Dalaran and NOT playing the game because player agency".

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