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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    If "situations make you toxic" is your worldview... you've got problems. A lot of child abusers have the same defense, "I'm not a bad person but they just wouldn't stop crying!!" Is there a limit to patience then too? Or is it that some people are not equipped or well adjusted to tolerate friction and lash out.
    Whatever floats your boat, patience has limits, sad fuck child abusers isnt the same just because it fits your narrative, people arent toxic, they become toxic at moments, its the same with anger.

    I have seen people that never typed, lashed out or even spoke badly while gaming for over 15 years, eventually lash out once in their life when things reach a threshold.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    So not spending 1 hour to form a group and get to a dungeon is the same for you as showing up and being showered with gear
    Too bad this is a fantasy. Even in retail, even with LFR/RDF, queue times are absolutely atrocious. Yes, it still takes over an hour for dps to find groups. Tell me again how that is so much better again? Long queue times AND no potential for social interactions? Yay?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    Also, you completely ignored the part where I said that you leave the LFD tool do the boring tedium of getting a group while you go out and actually play the game. You know, the thing you are advocating for getting your gear, but somehow while you are making your argument you start confusing "playing the game" with "sitting around in Dalaran and NOT playing the game because player agency".
    "Actually playing the game" is doing group content. That's what made WoW popular and why it is still popular today. And I mean REAL group content where you TALK to players, not this pseudo group content in retail where technically players are in the same group and proximity to each other so it technically counts.

  3. #223
    RDF changed nothing beyond removing the need of talking to humans

    You are still waiting for group members, You are still meeting those big bad oh so horrible "toxic people"

    You still need gear to progress

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    And I'm telling you time sinks are a good thing. They do foster an environment for being social whether you take advantage of it or not. That's what I mean when I say restrictions are a good thing. That goes back to the path of least resistance. Why have any resistance at all? Just give players gear, tell them they won, and roll the credits. Who needs gameplay when you can just win?

    Playing the game is damn time sink. The boss has health? That's just a time sink. I can't one shot everything? Time sink. I can't instantly teleport wherever I want? TIME SIIIINK!!!
    amen. there's just too many people wanting to finish the game without even playing it. for what? all the instant gratification ruined the game and the expectation what the game has to offer.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    If "situations make you toxic" is your worldview... you've got problems. A lot of child abusers have the same defense, "I'm not a bad person but they just wouldn't stop crying!!" Is there a limit to patience then too? Or is it that some people are not equipped or well adjusted to tolerate friction and lash out.
    Holy hell, that comment.

    This is a game, you are talking about dungeon finder. How about not bringing fucking child abusers into it? :P

  6. #226
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Started playing halfway through TBC in 2007. Seethe harder.

    I really have to wonder what it is with people and this bizarre thing where people instantly assume you "didn't play" just because your experience was different than theirs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "well, summon stones exist, so let's just allow everyone to instant teleport to any dungeon they want"

    okay, mage portals exist so let's allow everyone to instant teleport to all major cities from anywhere

    see how dumb that is? By allowing everyone to instant teleport all over the place, you're removing the social interaction of having to find a mage and get him to open a portal for you. And likewise, LFD removes the travel time of having to fly to the dungeon or have other people summon you there.

    What's even the point of having a game world if you just teleport around everywhere? Retail having instant teleports all over the place is what makes the world feel so tiny. There's no travel time.

    lol in ALL my years of playing I have NEVER once asked for a portal. I just took a FP and went afk for a few.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  7. #227
    I am Murloc! SinR's Avatar
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    I get an invite, I start heading towards the dungeon. No excuse to sit in Shatt and wait for a summon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And to add: My time doing 70 content I've never once run with the same person in a pug more than once.

    My time leveling I've never run with the same person in a pug more than once.

    Back in Vanilla Classic, the bit of group content I did I never ran with the same people more than once.

    This myth of building COMMUNITY is a lie.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    This is a game, you are talking about dungeon finder.
    Exactly. We can't have a legitimate feature of the game because it's going to make people lash out? Like you said, it's a game... I don't care if someone can't control their gamer-rage. Why do I need to have less features and less content because of that?

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    Too bad this is a fantasy. Even in retail, even with LFR/RDF, queue times are absolutely atrocious. Yes, it still takes over an hour for dps to find groups. Tell me again how that is so much better again? Long queue times AND no potential for social interactions? Yay?




    "Actually playing the game" is doing group content. That's what made WoW popular and why it is still popular today. And I mean REAL group content where you TALK to players, not this pseudo group content in retail where technically players are in the same group and proximity to each other so it technically counts.
    Last I checked, there is nothing in retail at end-game that uses the automated LFD because Heroic dungeons are entirely bypassed by Mythic+ and everything else for 5mans is manual. So your argument once again makes zero sense if you spend more than one second to think about it or if you are not being disingenuous.

    As for what REAL group content is or not, this is moving-the-goalposts to such an extent that you have just landed on the moon. I guess when you have nothing factual to offer as an argument, that is to be expected.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    And I'm telling you time sinks are a good thing. They do foster an environment for being social whether you take advantage of it or not. That's what I mean when I say restrictions are a good thing. That goes back to the path of least resistance. Why have any resistance at all? Just give players gear, tell them they won, and roll the credits. Who needs gameplay when you can just win?

    Playing the game is damn time sink. The boss has health? That's just a time sink. I can't one shot everything? Time sink. I can't instantly teleport wherever I want? TIME SIIIINK!!!
    This is such a terrible argument. People play games to have fun. Doing dungeons is fun and of course getting rewarded for doing them is too. Having your time wasted (= time that you could spend on to have FUN) by spamming LFG and waiting for one other person to come and summon is NOT fun and not even remotely the same.

    I feel stupid for having to state the obvious, but here you go. Seems like the average MMOC poster has never had fun and thinks playing WoW is a job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaim View Post
    amen. there's just too many people wanting to finish the game without even playing it. for what? all the instant gratification ruined the game and the expectation what the game has to offer.
    Here's another that has no idea what he's talking about. Seriously: Have you ever asked yourself why you are even playing this game?

    But yeah: Wasting your time by doing nothing = Playing the game by actually killing bosses. Totally the same. HOLY SHIT

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    This is such a terrible argument. People play games to have fun. Doing dungeons is fun and of course getting rewarded for doing them is too. Having your time wasted (= time that you could spend on to have FUN) by spamming LFG and waiting for one other person to come and summon is NOT fun and not even remotely the same.
    Not fun FOR YOU. Sorry but just instantly spamming braindead content and being given welfare epics is NOT fun FOR ME.

    Like holy shit the community argument didn't come out of thin air, people aren't making this shit up. There actually are people that exist that enjoy the social aspects. Just because you aren't one of them doesn't mean it's not real. There's a reason Wrath of the Lich King is STILL the most successful, most popular expansion to date and it's not because modern retail features are so great, it's because they are terrible.

    Again I must ask, why play the game? Why not just be given loot? Why not just have "YOU WIN" scroll across your screen? That's all you seem to need anyway.

    Edit: Spamming LFG, forming a group, traveling to the instance, summoning the group, these are all things that absolutely are FUN FOR ME. I know it's hard to understand that some people like being social. Some people actually like playing the game instead of playing through menus. LFR/RDF content is barely more engaging that getting gear from the mission table, might as well stop beating around the bush and make all instant gratification gear come from the mission table.
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-08-29 at 05:02 PM.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    Not fun FOR YOU. Sorry but just instantly spamming braindead content and being given welfare epics is NOT fun FOR ME.

    Like holy shit the community argument didn't come out of thin air, people aren't making this shit up. There actually are people that exist that enjoy the social aspects. Just because you aren't one of them doesn't mean it's not real. There's a reason Wrath of the Lich King is STILL the most successful, most popular expansion to date and it's not because modern retail features are so great, it's because they are terrible.

    Again I must ask, why play the game? Why not just be given loot? Why not just have "YOU WIN" scroll across your screen? That's all you seem to need anyway.

    Edit: Spamming LFG, forming a group, traveling to the instance, summoning the group, these are all things that absolutely are FUN FOR ME. I know it's hard to understand that some people like being social. Some people actually like playing the game instead of playing through menus. LFR/RDF content is barely more engaging that getting gear from the mission table, might as well stop beating around the bush and make all instant gratification gear come from the mission table.
    Equating the LFD tool with the mission table is some top tier mental gymnastics, even for MMO-C standards. I honestly applaud you for having the face to write such things down mate, bravo! I mean never mind the trivial part of playing to complete the dungeon or that for many people that is what's fun in this whole exercise. Nope, you pressed a button in a menu so they are the same! I guess pressing "Play" on Battlenet must be the same too, better get a petition up for Blizzard to remove it!!!!

  13. #233
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zugg zugg View Post
    Dungeons are literally the lowest form of social interaction in WoW. Dungeons require very little if any communication to kill bosses. Most people in dungeons are looking for a quick in and out.

    The fact it teleports you into the instance is such a small issue with the existence of flying and summoning. The proposed LFG tool doesn't fix any of the issues that RDF solves nor does it help foster "social interactions".

    These are none issues in Wrath Classic, RDF on it's own is a fantastic tool that solves a major issue with older and irrelevant content.
    I'm not sure what RDF is but I'm going to challenge your idea that dungeons are literally the lowest form of social interaction in WoW.

    I made countless friends playing in dungeons back in Vanilla when we had to form groups by asking in Trade, pulls were slower, there was drinking down time. People were considerably more social.

    I made similarly a lot of friends in TBC classic (the recent version) the same way, a LOT more than I did in the world. So maybe that's your experience, but mine is that a lot of people are social in dungeons. Especially when the wave of streamers has passed that dungeon level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    Not fun FOR YOU. Sorry but just instantly spamming braindead content and being given welfare epics is NOT fun FOR ME.

    Like holy shit the community argument didn't come out of thin air, people aren't making this shit up. There actually are people that exist that enjoy the social aspects. Just because you aren't one of them doesn't mean it's not real. There's a reason Wrath of the Lich King is STILL the most successful, most popular expansion to date and it's not because modern retail features are so great, it's because they are terrible.

    Again I must ask, why play the game? Why not just be given loot? Why not just have "YOU WIN" scroll across your screen? That's all you seem to need anyway.

    Edit: Spamming LFG, forming a group, traveling to the instance, summoning the group, these are all things that absolutely are FUN FOR ME. I know it's hard to understand that some people like being social. Some people actually like playing the game instead of playing through menus. LFR/RDF content is barely more engaging that getting gear from the mission table, might as well stop beating around the bush and make all instant gratification gear come from the mission table.
    I find the mission table sort of fun. LFG / LFR are absolutely negative experiences to me. Dreadful. I'd rather not play if that would be all there is.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    I'm not sure what RDF is but I'm going to challenge your idea that dungeons are literally the lowest form of social interaction in WoW.

    I made countless friends playing in dungeons back in Vanilla when we had to form groups by asking in Trade, pulls were slower, there was drinking down time. People were considerably more social.

    I made similarly a lot of friends in TBC classic (the recent version) the same way, a LOT more than I did in the world. So maybe that's your experience, but mine is that a lot of people are social in dungeons. Especially when the wave of streamers has passed that dungeon level.
    You had that experience because the dungeons were designed to be tackled as such, it had nothing to do with the LFD tool. In WotLK the dungeons were designed to be short and quick affairs (minus Occulus I guess), while all the classes were made much more resource-efficient so drinking/eating during a dungeon became obsolete. Never mind that everybody got spamable AoE, as well. These things happened even before the LFD tool was introduced, so please don't confuse the effect of one (dungeon and class design shift in WotLK) with the other (the LFD tool). To have the experience of Vanilla/Classic and TBC(-C) you would need to redesign the whole expansion from the ground up, not remove a feature and be done with it.
    Last edited by Fkiolaris; 2022-08-29 at 07:30 PM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    Equating the LFD tool with the mission table is some top tier mental gymnastics, even for MMO-C standards. I honestly applaud you for having the face to write such things down mate, bravo! I mean never mind the trivial part of playing to complete the dungeon or that for many people that is what's fun in this whole exercise. Nope, you pressed a button in a menu so they are the same! I guess pressing "Play" on Battlenet must be the same too, better get a petition up for Blizzard to remove it!!!!
    Playing to complete the dungeon is my point too, except my focus is on the playing part not the completing part. Because it is the playing that is fun. Yet far too many people focus on the rewards for completing instead of focusing on the fun. That's why I make such outrageous exaggerations, I am illustrating the absurdity of that slippery slope. Focus too much on completion and rewards and you get to a point where simply pressing the play button is still too much for some players, they just want the instant gratification of a reward. That is indeed exactly the same thing LFR/RDF is doing, it is devaluing the gameplay and the entire game itself by bypassing "play" for the sake of the path of least resistance to instant gratification.

  16. #236
    I loved it. It was hassle free. Could just join a queue solo or with friends and not have to continually shout in chat until eventually find other players or get invited. Go about mining or herbing, or even play something else on the other screen while the queue pops.

    Keeping it specific to the realm would also be fine and a bonus as it would keep things closer to home and less anonymous for people to act like ass hats.

    Hopefully they change their mind and add it in the future.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

    The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

    All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.
    Wanted to post just to say this is mostly true, people do join groups to achieve a goal but don't underestimate the social aspect. I remember TBC Black Morass, getting attuned, grouped with 4 other random people. We had such a good time together that from that random 5 man, all these years later 4 of the 5 of us still keep in touch IRL, still never meet each other in person but we do keep in touch.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.
    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.
    Except this is literally how every person on my friends list got to be there, back when it was current and today in Classic. Every guild I joined was the result of dungeon runs. Most meaningful and cherished memories revolve around dungeons, precisely because they require you to group together and meet people and have shared experiences. None of that happened once the automated LFD tool was introduced, and sure that is exacerbated by the fact that the system was not scoped to your own server only but the disconnected nature of the experience with the teleporting and everything did its own damage in shrinking the world and such.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    Playing to complete the dungeon is my point too, except my focus is on the playing part not the completing part. Because it is the playing that is fun. Yet far too many people focus on the rewards for completing instead of focusing on the fun. That's why I make such outrageous exaggerations, I am illustrating the absurdity of that slippery slope. Focus too much on completion and rewards and you get to a point where simply pressing the play button is still too much for some players, they just want the instant gratification of a reward. That is indeed exactly the same thing LFR/RDF is doing, it is devaluing the gameplay and the entire game itself by bypassing "play" for the sake of the path of least resistance to instant gratification.
    LFG spamming and manually putting the group together is not "playing" to me, it's the chore I need to do in order to play the part of the game I want to, which is the dungeon or raid. There's no slippery slope there. I'm there to play the game and EARN my reward, I don't want it just handed to me. I want to play my class, do my rotation, see the animations and the boss, run around and execute the mechanics and loot the boss when we're successful.

    "LF2M for H MGT, Need Tank and Heals" for the 20th time in 30 minutes is not playing the game.

    Like waiting in line at the post office or something, the waiting in line part is not the reason you're there, it's just something you have to deal with to get to the part you actually care about. Like most restaurants now, they don't literally make you wait in line for your table, you can usually just walk up and give your name and let them know you're waiting, and then they take your phone number or give you a pager and you get a message letting you know when it's ready, and while waiting you can do whatever.

    EDIT: Adding. I think they should implement LFD, but change it so all it does is put people into a group, from the same server. No teleporting, but also no LFG chat spam. Just queue and ~15-20 minutes later, BAM you're in a group for the dungeon you want to do. Now go do it.
    Last edited by Katchii; 2022-08-29 at 09:52 PM.

  20. #240
    It's wonderful to know that all the community needs in order to accept LFD in WOTLK Classic is for it to not teleport you to the dungeon instantly. I had no idea THAT was your guys' hangup all these years!

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