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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

    The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

    All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.
    My experience is the opposite, classic dungeon runs are plenty social, lots of talking and joking. I've made 4-5 battle.net friends just doing the occasional dungeons between lvl 30-60 in TBC classic. Maybe it's just my server has a good community but TBC Classic on Earthshaker EU has been an incredibly pleasant and social experience, much more so than it was ever was for me since I started retail in WotLK.

    In fact I would say that yeah, the "after-school special" is alive and well on my server. It's very strange of you to say that these things NEVER happen and never did when it's patently false. Groups are talkative, mature, patient and it's very rare that people get upset. Of course, if you want a social experience, you are required to be social yourself. You won't make any friends if all you do is silently pilot your character.
    Last edited by Bianconeri; 2022-08-11 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post

    One time I went to a pizza place and saw someone eating pineapple on pizza. That's disgusting so they should take it off the menu and no one should be allowed to eat it if they like it.
    You actually couldn’t have missed the point any harder than you just did. He was talking about how people defend the removal of the lfg tool because they want the ‘aspect of community’ with using the chat function. Well in practice the chat function is just used to gate keep people out of content and it’s almost impossible to get a group unless you are geared to the tits or have a shit load of money.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    I’m not even joking I saw a post on my server last night for a gdkp heroic setthik halls mount run where they were checking your gear at the stone.
    On that note, what makes you think you won't get vote kicked out of RDF if have low gear and a group of people specifically want good geared people?

  4. #104
    It's also incredibly easy to be the change you want to see in the world if you're anxious about gear checks, achiv requirements etc. If you are doing 5-man content you can literally start a group yourself and likely fill it up within minutes. You can be your own boss in this game if you want to, no one is actually at the mercy of some nefarious GDKP taskmaster unless they want to be. You can even do this for entry-level raids without issue, especially true of Naxx. I was a complete noob when I made my first Blackwing Descent run in Cata, but I was able to put together a group and clear the raid with, admittedly, quite some pain. But those are the breaks. If you really want to do the content, go get it. If you can't be arsed to make a group I'm not sure how much you really want it.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    On that note, what makes you think you won't get vote kicked out of RDF if have low gear and a group of people specifically want good geared people?
    That does happen for sure, but not nearly enough. It requires the whole group to be in agreement to kick you which when you’re dealing with a random draw this doesn’t happen that often unless you’re seriously undergeared. And even if that happens you know what you do? Que up again.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    It's also incredibly easy to be the change you want to see in the world if you're anxious about gear checks, achiv requirements etc. If you are doing 5-man content you can literally start a group yourself and likely fill it up within minutes. You can be your own boss in this game if you want to, no one is actually at the mercy of some nefarious GDKP taskmaster unless they want to be. You can even do this for entry-level raids without issue, especially true of Naxx. I was a complete noob when I made my first Blackwing Descent run in Cata, but I was able to put together a group and clear the raid with, admittedly, quite some pain. But those are the breaks. If you really want to do the content, go get it. If you can't be arsed to make a group I'm not sure how much you really want it.
    If you're a tank or healer that would probably work, DPS wellllll might want to have something good to binge watch while you wait.

    *and as I've said in other posts also this would depend on what server you're on, if you leveled and ended up on a dead faction side of some servers, I've seen tanks and healers trying to track down DPS's for hours to do a run.

  7. #107
    It's true that dead factions and servers are an issue. I've been getting free server transfers on my classic toons since I started again a couple of months back, I don't know how often that offer is up or if it only is for low pop realms. I was able to just free transfer them to the high pop realms my friends play on without issue. Those kind of free services and server merges are, I guess, the most viable solutions to the problem.

    Tanks and healers aren't really that rare unless you are playing the graveyard shift on a dead realm. I made a ton of raid PUGs from my hunter and rogue in Cata before LFR was a thing. I see how RDF is a one-size-fits-all solution to the problems of dead factions, servers and oddball playing hours, but I personally prefer the manual approach. I think it undermines a lot of the qualities an MMO are predicated upon. I'm not trying to brush away the very real issues of dead realms by the way, I recognize it's not perfect. I have played on totally dead realms myself, retail Grim Batol and Xavius EU for instance which were complete graveyards at times. That was not fun.

    My mindset is that if I can't do whatever group content I want to do on a classic realm, well that's just how it is and I will have to find something else to do either in this game or another. The MMO experience is fleeting and you have to strike while the iron is hot. It's not like a single-player game where I know I am guaranteed to play the game to its full extent. For me that has always been part and parcel of MMOs and a reason why they are appealing. I think that not having a dungeon finder in classic is a good and healthy way to separate retail from classic further and appeal to different crowds. Yes it's not as faithful to the actual WotLK experience but it's a compromise we should accept and be able to live with.
    Last edited by Bianconeri; 2022-08-11 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    That does happen for sure, but not nearly enough. It requires the whole group to be in agreement to kick you which when you’re dealing with a random draw this doesn’t happen that often unless you’re seriously undergeared. And even if that happens you know what you do? Que up again.
    Pretty sure you get the deserter debuff if you get kicked, but anyway, how is re-queuing better than joining a group that doesn't have such requirements in the first place?
    I know I'm doing what I'm criticizing now and splitting hairs, but honestly, through the entirety of TBC, the only dungeon I've seen for which someone also mentioned "decent gear" was MGT HC so "LFM x heroic t5+ gear" is definitely not the norm but very rare.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    It's true that dead factions and servers are an issue. I've been getting free server transfers on my classic toons since I started again a couple of months back, I don't know how often that offer is up or if it only is for low pop realms. I was able to just free transfer them to the high pop realms my friends play on without issue. Those kind of free services and server merges are, I guess, the most viable solutions to the problem.

    Tanks and healers aren't really that rare unless you are playing the graveyard shift on a dead realm. I made a ton of raid PUGs from my hunter and rogue in Cata before LFR was a thing. I see how RDF is a one-size-fits-all solution to the problems of dead factions, servers and oddball playing hours, but I personally prefer the manual approach. I think it undermines a lot of the qualities an MMO are predicated upon. I'm not trying to brush away the very real issues of dead realms by the way, I recognize it's not perfect. I have played on totally dead realms myself, retail Grim Batol and Xavius EU for instance which were complete graveyards at times. That was not fun.

    My mindset is that if I can't do whatever group content I want to do on a classic realm, well that's just how it is and I will have to find something else to do either in this game or another. The MMO experience is fleeting and you have to strike while the iron is hot. It's not like a single-player game where I know I am guaranteed to play the game to its full extent. For me that has always been part and parcel of MMOs and a reason why they are appealing. I think that not having a dungeon finder in classic is a good and healthy way to separate retail from classic further and appeal to different crowds. Yes it's not as faithful to the actual WotLK experience but it's a compromise we should accept and be able to live with.
    First time around I had no issues running dungeons in LK far into the expansion and any any time I wanted (on any spec *DPS waited longer but not much), and it was entirely due to RDF, and blizzard had not touched dead faction servers only dead servers so unless you want to pay for all your toons to move you're SOL.

    Isn't the idea of the MMO is to be able to do group content, if it fails to offer than seems like it's a failure on the Dev's part, reason people are upset because RDF did solve that issue in LK and made the group content more accessible to everyone more of the time. having to play a MMO as solo game does not seem like a very acceptable compromise.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Pretty sure you get the deserter debuff if you get kicked, but anyway, how is re-queuing better than joining a group that doesn't have such requirements in the first place?
    I know I'm doing what I'm criticizing now and splitting hairs, but honestly, through the entirety of TBC, the only dungeon I've seen for which someone also mentioned "decent gear" was MGT HC so "LFM x heroic t5+ gear" is definitely not the norm but very rare.
    People forget this, but it's also fine not to meet the requirements of any given party leader. I can also guarantee that if any given player feels upset and helpless when faced with such requirements, other people on the server, way more than you'd expect, feel the same way and would join a more lax group made by the players who can't get into the "raid gear required" groups. Party leaders in freaking LFG chat aren't gods lol. Any WoW player can access the same 5-content they gatekeep, it just requires patience and the acceptance of certain growing pains.

  11. #111
    Bloodsail Admiral Konteil's Avatar
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    seems like there is a new one of these every hour anymore. RDF isn't coming. play or don't. whining isn't gonna change it. dear gods i was neutral about it for a long time now even of you guys are right i still want to keep them from adding out of spite it just cause I'm tired of seeing it flood threads every day. rdf at the beginning would break gearing. it wasnt in at beginning or retail wrath when it was there. if rdf let you chain heroics people would have full looms and epics on day 2 of release by simply no lifing in dungeons. you would have an organized team of people farming badges to sell BOE epics at insane prices from the badge vendors in dalaran. there were a few BOE pieces that could be purchased from them if i recall. it would break the progression it would further break the economy. its a bad idea. let it go and play or don't.
    “Listen, three eyes,” he said, “don’t you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.”

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    People forget this, but it's also fine not to meet the requirements of any given party leader. I can also guarantee that if any given player feels upset and helpless when faced with such requirements, other people on the server, way more than you'd expect, feel the same way and would join a more lax group made by the players who can't get into the "raid gear required" groups. Party leaders in freaking LFG chat aren't gods lol. Any WoW player can access the same 5-content they gatekeep, it just requires patience and the acceptance of certain growing pains.
    The thing is ... there are no such requirements or if they are, they're incredibly rare.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Pretty sure you get the deserter debuff if you get kicked, but anyway, how is re-queuing better than joining a group that doesn't have such requirements in the first place?
    I know I'm doing what I'm criticizing now and splitting hairs, but honestly, through the entirety of TBC, the only dungeon I've seen for which someone also mentioned "decent gear" was MGT HC so "LFM x heroic t5+ gear" is definitely not the norm but very rare.
    You don’t get deserter when you’re kicked. People abused that system when you get a dungeon that sucks.

    Requeing is better because first of all, it rarely happens that you’re kicked because of gear (people generally don’t gaf about gear when doing RDF if they do care about gear they generally just make their own groups and achievement run), and also it’s still quicker than sitting in chat hoping to find a group through the spam for the specific content you need while also hoping to Christ they invite you based on their criteria. It’s a lot easier to just not invite someone if they are undergeared, rolling on similar items, are a class that aren’t big dps than it is to have everyone in the group agree to kick them once you are in the dungeon.

    And to your take on the dungeon group in tbc, it’s not just about the gear (even tho I literally see people checking gear on a daily basis for heroics in the last phase of tbc) but it’s also about people just straight up not inviting you because of your class or items you are rolling on.

    I played a rogue for the majority of tbc, it is almost damn near impossible to find a group especially at the start unless I made my own, which takes a long long long time to form.

    I’m not that bothered by the removal of it, but there isn’t a single reason why it should have been removed in the first place because what people say it’s doing by removing it (community blah blah blah), in practice it isn’t working even a little bit.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post

    Isn't the idea of the MMO is to be able to do group content, if it fails to offer than seems like it's a failure on the Dev's part, reason people are upset because RDF did solve that issue in LK and made the group content more accessible to everyone more of the time. having to play a MMO as solo game does not seem like a very acceptable compromise.
    I agree that is the idea of MMOs, we just disagree on where to draw the line in terms of accessibility at all costs. That's fine. I will add that to me personally, LFR and LFD on retail is much closer to a solo experience than classic is right now. I do not hate those systems and lord knows I have played an ungodly amount of RDF in retail, I certainly have taken advantage of that convenience, but I would be lying if I said it hasn't cheapened the overall WoW experience for me. The people I meet in LFR and RFD on retail might as well be NPCs to me, that doesn't sit right with me.

    Your point about dead factions and realms is still very valid though. It's a strong argument for dungeon finder, but not one that tips the scales in its favour as far as I am concerned in the context of a separate classic game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    The thing is ... there are no such requirements or if they are, they're incredibly rare.
    Exactly. I am in full agreement with you. Even if people run into such rare circumstances, there are mind-numbingly obvious ways to work around them.

  15. #115
    Mechagnome Ihazpaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.
    Never say never. You can't be any more wrong with your comment. Without the oldschool meet in trade and have epic journey in dungeon I would not have met awesome friends I have now nor my partner and his kids whom I love like my own.

    Just because you can't find people to play with is most likely because of your personality and laziness. Maybe you don't meet people who like to have to work for the rewards in game and be social because you are so toxic person that others simply just nod for your opinions to get away from the conversation.

    The way you think is that best would be just press a button and get max gear and all achievements instantly. Maybe you should play something else than MMOs which are supposed to be grindy, social, slow, challenging and rewarding in long run. Your toxic way of thinking just does not fit in that. Play Apex or CS for instant rewards without ever talking to anyone.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    Your point about dead factions and realms is still very valid though. It's a strong argument for dungeon finder, but not one that tips the scales in its favour as far as I am concerned in the context of a separate classic game.

    - - - Updated - - -
    try being one of the ones stuck on those servers (if not on one of those servers or you're "mega" server ya it would not be a big deal for you, and that's easy to say) but there are others that would like to play the same game with out paying blizzard extortion fee.

  17. #117
    I have been on those servers, as I said earlier.

  18. #118
    It didnt. I have played the game since vanilla and played very heavily in TBC until Shadowlands 9.1. Dungeons are not social places and really never have been. No one cared to ask how your day was. they wanted to run the dungeon asap and move on. Especially dps because they have to beg 100 people to let them in the group or to find a tank or healer. Someone here will/has undoubtedly pointed out the one time they met their wife in the dungeon but thats a once in a lifetime event. All the dungeons i ran was with the same ppl my friend/guild group and when i needed randos we didnt talk much. We just ran the dungeon and then asked if people wanted to run more.

    RDF didnt ruin anything in warcraft excpt gate keeping. There were so many ppl on my server who were bad and known for being bad or laggy that were put into my group after RDF came in. Usually if they asked for an invite we just said no and they never got any gear. RDF was actually more fair for people. Not to mention being able to spam dungeons for badges without lockouts was AWESOME for alts. NGL it was fucking awesome when RDF was added.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    I have been on those servers, as I said earlier.
    have or currently?

  20. #120
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zugg zugg View Post
    Dungeons are literally the lowest form of social interaction in WoW. Dungeons require very little if any communication to kill bosses. Most people in dungeons are looking for a quick in and out.

    The fact it teleports you into the instance is such a small issue with the existence of flying and summoning. The proposed LFG tool doesn't fix any of the issues that RDF solves nor does it help foster "social interactions".

    These are none issues in Wrath Classic, RDF on it's own is a fantastic tool that solves a major issue with older and irrelevant content.
    The real problem with RDF's introduction (then, not now) is that they made the dungeons a complete joke in order to facilitate it. It took like 6-7years (Legion) to fix dungeons lol.

    RDF today on wotlk classic wouldn't be a negative really.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

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