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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    What changes is that people known as, say, ninjalooters would still get a group.

    Or that I could not say "let's not take this dude, he threw a tantrum last time when he died charging a boss ahead of the tank".
    You can still have them on your list and vote kick for this exact reason. Also, how are you ninja looting when an item drops and you roll on it? A ninja looter is someone who changes it to master loot or something before the pull.

    Also if your reason for not wanting RDF is because you want to completely ex-communicate someone from the game because they did something you dislike then maybe you need to be looking inward and ask yourself if it’s worth it or not.

    Like I said if they are truly that awful, then your group will find that out and they will kick them. Problem solved.

    Edit: also if none of the above works for you then just leave the group, go do dailies for 15 mins and then que again.
    Last edited by Somic; 2022-08-11 at 09:36 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post

    This is like saying “the homeless issue is such an easy answer if you think about it, just give them homes”.
    See, you could say that if I didn't expound further after my opening statement. But I did expound to a considerable degree after that, so this rather strange comparison of yours is at best awkward, but nevertheless a clear signpost that what follows is a bad faith reading of my post.

    The RDF isn’t disincentivizing you from going out in the world and forming groups, because you aren’t going out in the world and forming groups anyway. You are not strolling around in the open world finding groups without RDF, you are sitting on your ass in a city staring at the LFG screen and either waiting for a LFM to pop up that matches the dungeon you are wanting to do or you are copying your post of “LFM MGT NEED TANK” and pasting it every 30 seconds are waiting for a whisper. You aren’t going out in the world to do shit.
    You are making quite a number of assumptions with not much of a foundation. I am in fact, almost always engaged in some activity outside of a city when I'm looking for dungeons. Am I not "out in the world, forming groups" when I'm travelling with a friend, one I made questing in Dustwallow Marsh, all the way to the Hinterlands to get the Mallet of Zul'farrak in order to do the final boss? Yesterday, when I took my IRL friend to Desolace to start a pre-quest to SM, was I not "out in the world?". Clearly, I did none of these things because you seem to know that all I did was "sitting on my ass in a city". I continue to be impressed by the posters here who know me better than I do. You are clearly very concerned with the technical similarities of spamming LFG chat and queuing up in the RDF tool. Well, I do think that actually engaging in chat is small but important component of the MMO experience. I know I have made numerous friends in Classic BC these last months and I have interacted with them before, during and after dungeons, across several toons and levels. To me that is as "out in the world" as it gets. That you can spam LFG afk in a city the same way you can hit a queue button is a comparison that ignores much of the non-tangible qualities of dungeoneering in classic.


    And that’s great if you think it’s more social, but here’s the thing, RDF does not make it less social. You and the people in your group are just as social with RDF than they are without it. The fact that your group is formed automatically for you does not instantly mean you are doomed to be less social.
    On the contrary, I think the RFD tool is largely responsible for a degree of alienation in retail. It feels robotic, you are not reaching out, you are merely hitting an order button. There is no sense of destination or purpose beyond a faint idea of experience and loot, or that of being embedded in the actual world we play in.

    And just like you said if you aren’t there to chat, you are there to progress your character, then I have to ask again, where is the issue with RDF?
    You missed the point entirely. The point is that even though I recognize RFD allows me to achieve my goals quicker, I do not want it. I spelled out my issues in the post you are quoting so I'm puzzled why you ask, yet again. Like you did with your off-key comparison to a hypothetical argument about homelessness, you are once again writing as if I did not give substantial consideration to the issues at hand.

    The issues you have layed out just aren’t real. It’s not that I disagree with them or they don’t sound good but they just aren’t real at all. No one is going “out in the world” to form groups for dungeons. They sit in the lfg and they either spam or they filter through the spam in order to find a group. That’s not more social. Period.
    You seem to be very fixated on the "going out in the world" term. If my post appeared to suggest that I was in the habit of searching every nook and cranny in Desolace looking for Maraudon groups without looking at the chat, well, for that I am sorry. I thought that much was obvious and the term would not be taken quite so literally. Thankfully, you know exactly what I'm doing, or more importantly, what "they" are doing. Well I don't know who "they" are, "they" are apparently not me or the people I play with. But apparently I am speaking with someone who is intimately familiar with "they", what "they" do and what "they" want. I guess that as long as we have scholars who just need to invoke what "they" do to justify an opinion, we are alright.

    It is also curious that I should write hundreds of words on a forum I've barely posted on, on an issue that is "not even real". I fail to see what motivations I would have to write on a topic that is not even real, but clearly I am in the presence of keener, more studied minds.

    What does this even mean? The play style of dungeoneering?
    Who knows? It seems our minds are, at the current stage of evolution, far too impoverished to decrypt these terms.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    How dare current 18 yr olds get to experience what we experience at 18! They must change it to focus on 36 years olds!
    If that's your take then all I have to say to you is this... "Welcome to /r/EntitledPeople, where we share stories of people who think the rules don't apply to them and they should get what they want."

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Eh? Have you heard of M+? Ever wondered why it doesn't teleport you to the dungeon? CMs started this, literally 1.5 expansions after RDF was introduced. Just like how they've been trying to make flying less anti-MMO since it came: once the toy is given, it's hard to take it back.
    Have you ever heard of asking a really dumb question to give your point clout but all it really means is you wanted your time typing it? Just curious.

    So lets go over it. Mythic+ is in the game sure. So is RDF. So it doesn't seem to harm that.

    CMs were in the game sure, with RDF, but they got removed.. but mostly because they got replaced with M+ and RDF still kicking so no harm no foul.

    Flying anti-MMO? I guess. But also going to a capital city and push a button and saying "now I can be killed in the world by players" or "now I cannot be killed in the world by players" is kind of weird in a MMO too. But its a decent feature so its ok. Just like flying. Just like RDF. These things do not kill communities or games. Plenty of other games have them and are doing fine. WoW has lasted a long time with a lot of these things too. They aren't the problem. Their isn't really a problem. If their is it isn't a system its the people within the community. Even though I don't think even that is that big of a problem. Bad apples and all that aside.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    Dungeons were faceroll in WotLK so the interaction declined, many have left this out. LFD/RF facilitated group formation; you don’t make friends in LFG chat.

    Before WotLK: you had to coordinate and explore a dungeon, didn’t need to deal with Personal Loot, adds and bosses had pull strats, class rotations were more about survival than pewpew burn, and you shared buffs, info, and had the opportunity to give away loot.
    and you literally need zero help questing in the open world. that is also a factor in less socialization.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This is some "I reject your reality and substitute my own" levels of semantic coping but I don't really care to continue this any further. I don't think you even realized that this information was in the reveal trailer at first because you kept referring to "a post" but whatever.
    You're the one rejecting reality. I was originally referring to a post because as I'm sure you're aware Blizzard has discussed many times through many different channels their philosophy behind why they're adding or removing certain things from Classic content. You can watch the video or look at a post, it doesn't matter because their reasoning is the same and their reasoning was never "Just go play retail". "Just go play retail" is a response to the people who may want RDF. Can you understand the difference? They've stated before “Nurture and Protect Social Experiences” is a core pillar when making changes. Regardless of what side of the fence you stand on, this is at the heart of why they make changes like not adding RDF to Wrath Classic.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

    The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

    All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.
    This was so beautifully written, almost like poetry, and so so true
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    See, you could say that if I didn't expound further after my opening statement. But I did expound to a considerable degree after that, so this rather strange comparison of yours is at best awkward, but nevertheless a clear signpost that what follows is a bad faith reading of my post.
    I can still say that even after you 'expound' further on your statement, because your statement still doesn't make any sense at all. I can explain it to you AGAIN if I really need to. In fact I will tear every single one of them down yet again even though I really shouldn't have to.



    You are making quite a number of assumptions with not much of a foundation. I am in fact, almost always engaged in some activity outside of a city when I'm looking for dungeons. Am I not "out in the world, forming groups"
    No, you are not. When you are out leveling with your friends or doing quests that has nothing to do with forming a group for a dungeon. You can still do exactly what you are saying in WOTLK. You quest with friends and you guys decide to que together for a dungeon. It's the exact same thing. And if your point here was that you are doing something ELSE while you are looking for more people for a dungeon then guess what? RDF is the tool for you! Because you can go out in the world and do literally whatever you want while you wait on the que.

    What you said was that forming the group for the dungeon REQUIRED you or at least ENCOURAGED you to physically take your character out in the world in order to form it. When that is a complete and total lie, or at the very least a misrepresentation of reality.

    Am I not "out in the world, forming groups" when I'm travelling with a friend, one I made questing in Dustwallow Marsh, all the way to the Hinterlands to get the Mallet of Zul'farrak in order to do the final boss?
    What you are describing has nothing to do with RDF. A quest that forces you to quest out in the world in order to get a quest for a dungeon has absolutely nothing to do with RDF or the lack of RDF. Even if RDF is still a thing, you are still required to or at least encouraged to go out in the world to get those quests in the first place. What we are discussing (and you really need to stay on topic here sweetie), is the actual forming of the group for the dungeon. Not a quest. Do you understand that?

    Yesterday, when I took my IRL friend to Desolace to start a pre-quest to SM, was I not "out in the world?".
    You were out in the world, what you aren't understanding is that you weren't out in the world in order to get a dungeon group. You were out in the world in order to do a quest. Even if RDF was in right now at this very moment, you would still have to go out in the world in order to get that pre-requisite quest. We are discussing the forming of groups for the actual dungeon so again, stay on topic if you actually have a point left.

    Clearly, I did none of these things because you seem to know that all I did was "sitting on my ass in a city".
    I'll say it again just so it really gets buried in your head, I am discussing the forming of the group in order to walk into the dungeon, not a quest. It sounds like to me that you are on the side of dungeon quests that force you out in the world first in order to get the quest for the dungeon. Which is a fine point, but that isn't on topic to what we are discussing.

    I continue to be impressed by the posters here who know me better than I do. You are clearly very concerned with the technical similarities of spamming LFG chat and queuing up in the RDF tool.
    It's not that I know you more than you do, it's that you have no idea how to stay on topic or at least connect your points to the topic. If you like the thought of forming groups for a quest that forces you out in the world thats fine, the disconnect here is that your brain uses that information and somehow connected this to "I'm out in the world because RDF isn't in here". No, you are out in the world because of the quest, RDF has nothing to do with it.

    On the contrary, I think the RFD tool is largely responsible for a degree of alienation in retail. It feels robotic, you are not reaching out, you are merely hitting an order button. There is no sense of destination or purpose beyond a faint idea of experience and loot, or that of being embedded in the actual world we play in.
    If you're going to bring retail in this conversation I'm just going to mute you right now tbh. Retail has so many systems that cause this (CRZ, Raid Finder, normal mode dungeons being a joke, etc) that if you are seriously going to sit here and think "Well retail is disconnected...and it has RDF....so RDF is the problem!" then I have nothing more to say to you because your train of thought is too disconnected from reality.

    You missed the point entirely. The point is that even though I recognize RFD allows me to achieve my goals quicker, I do not want it. I spelled out my issues in the post you are quoting so I'm puzzled why you ask, yet again. Like you did with your off-key comparison to a hypothetical argument about homelessness, you are once again writing as if I did not give substantial consideration to the issues at hand.
    No I understood your point completely, the point I was making in that giant post was that why would you want to slow down your progress? If you want to slow down your progress because you enjoy things that pre-requisite quests then that's great, but that has nothing to do with RDF. The only thing not having RDF enabled is doing though is just slowing down your progress and replacing that time with you staring at a chat window. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    You seem to be very fixated on the "going out in the world" term. If my post appeared to suggest that I was in the habit of searching every nook and cranny in Desolace looking for Maraudon groups without looking at the chat, well, for that I am sorry. I thought that much was obvious and the term would not be taken quite so literally. Thankfully, you know exactly what I'm doing, or more importantly, what "they" are doing. Well I don't know who "they" are, "they" are apparently not me or the people I play with. But apparently I am speaking with someone who is intimately familiar with "they", what "they" do and what "they" want. I guess that as long as we have scholars who just need to invoke what "they" do to justify an opinion, we are alright.

    It is also curious that I should write hundreds of words on a forum I've barely posted on, on an issue that is "not even real". I fail to see what motivations I would have to write on a topic that is not even real, but clearly I am in the presence of keener, more studied minds.
    Well you see I pointed out how silly is was to say you went out in the world to find people by saying "Yeah you are sitting in the chat window that is so fun" and you stated that wasn't what you were talking about and you said it actually takes you out in Azeroth, so I have to ask again...what did you mean when you said it makes you go out in the world? Because by this post here I am now understanding that you were talking about pre-requisite quests for dungeons because those were literally the only examples you gave. If that's the case then you literally don't have a point because pre-requisite quests are not the same thing as forming a group for a dungeon.

    Who knows? It seems our minds are, at the current stage of evolution, far too impoverished to decrypt these terms.
    Wat

  9. #169
    You are too hung up on the expression "out in the world and forming groups", and I already observed that in my previous post. I admit I regret dignifying that fixation, as it seems to have encouraged a certain kind of garden variety e-forum grandstanding. That stuff was passé 20 years ago.

    what did you mean when you said it makes you go out in the world?
    RDF disincentivisez going out in the world in general, and forming groups for dungeons almost completely. My stance is fairly simple to understand if you take my posts as larger points rather than isolate certain expressions to hammer on. I did in fact predict you would harp on the "am I not out in the world forming groups", thing, because clearly nothing can be implied here, nor can it be assumed I actually know how this game is played after 13 years of playing it. I thought about going even further and fleshing out the post with reference to Heidegger, which I alluded to with my "reaching out into the world" turn of phrase, but I didn't think that would be worth the effort at all.

    No I understood your point completely, the point I was making in that giant post was that why would you want to slow down your progress? If you want to slow down your progress because you enjoy things that pre-requisite quests then that's great, but that has nothing to do with RDF
    Do you think I want to slow down my progress? Keep in mind that not using the RDF is only slowing down your progress if there is an RDF available. Think on that a bit.

    Do you still think I want to slow down my progress? If your answer is yes, why do you think I want to slow down my progress?

    If you're going to bring retail in this conversation I'm just going to mute you right now tbh. Retail has so many systems that cause this (CRZ, Raid Finder, normal mode dungeons being a joke, etc) that if you are seriously going to sit here and think "Well retail is disconnected...and it has RDF....so RDF is the problem!" then I have nothing more to say to you because your train of thought is too disconnected from reality
    Bizarrely exhibitionistic of you to let everyone know which user's post you don't want to see. You are free to mute whoever you like of course. I'm not going to stop you.

    that if you are seriously going to sit here and think: well retail is disconnected...and it has RDF....so RDF is the problem!
    This is a bad faith reading in itself, but is also a great illustration of your general mode in this discussion.


    The sweetie thing is just weird. So is your continued antagonism as you keep suggesting I am in cloud-cuckoo land, concerned with issues that are not even real, like I live on a different planet or something. Could it perhaps be that our differences in opinion are rooted in things far less far-fetched than the proposition that I am unable to perceive reality? If you take that as your starting point in your next discussion, I am sure you will be able to keep a more mature tone.
    Last edited by Bianconeri; 2022-08-13 at 12:05 AM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    You are too hung up on the expression "out in the world and forming groups", and I already observed that in my previous post. I admit I regret dignifying that fixation, as it seems to have encouraged a certain kind of garden variety e-forum grandstanding. That stuff was passé 20 years ago.


    I'm not hung up on anything you didn't literally say and try to prove. You legit said that it makes you go out into the world to make your groups so I am now showing you why that is a dumb thing to say.

    RDF disincentivisez going out in the world in general, and forming groups for dungeons almost completely. My stance is fairly simple to understand if you take my posts as larger points rather than isolate certain expressions to hammer on. I did in fact predict you would harp on the "am I not out in the world forming groups", thing, because clearly nothing can be implied here, nor can it be assumed I actually know how this game is played after 13 years of playing it. I thought about going even further and fleshing out the post with reference to Heidegger, which I alluded to with my "reaching out into the world" turn of phrase, but I didn't think that would be worth the effort at all.
    I understand your argument completely, it's just not real. What you are saying doesn't exist because you are conflating an issue with one system and tying that to RDF for whatever reason because your brain is scattered.

    And you keep saying it disincentivizes you going out in the world and you have yet to say how. You first said you were forced to go out into the world to make the groups for dungeons, I explained why that was a dumb thing to say, you then said random bullshit about quests that had nothing to do with forming groups, I explained why that was a dumb thing to say. And now you’re just saying it without any reasons as to why. If you’re so adamant about it disincentivizing players you should at the very least give me one real example as to why. Because you still haven’t

    Do you think I want to slow down my progress? Keep in mind that not using the RDF is only slowing down your progress if there is an RDF available. Think on that a bit.

    Do you still think I want to slow down my progress? If your answer is yes, why do you think I want to slow down my progress?
    Because that's literally what you fucking said. You word for word said

    The point is that even though I recognize RFD allows me to achieve my goals quicker, I do not want it
    It allows you to achieve your goals quicker so you don't want it. Any person with the brain past the age of 10 can now come to the conclusion that you don't want your progress to come quicker. Which means it is slower by comparison. Are you really this stupid that I have to lay this out or are you attempting to argue your way out of your dumb stances.

    Bizarrely exhibitionistic of you to let everyone know which user's post you don't want to see. You are free to mute whoever you like of course. I'm not going to stop you.
    Only the painfully dumb ones.

    This is a bad faith reading in itself, but is also a great illustration of your general mode in this discussion.


    The sweetie thing is just weird. So is your continued antagonism as you keep suggesting I am in cloud-cuckoo land, concerned with issues that are not even real, like I live on a different planet or something. Could it perhaps be that our differences in opinion are rooted in things far less far-fetched than the proposition that I am unable to perceive reality? If you take that as your starting point in your next discussion, I am sure you will be able to keep a more mature tone.
    Out of everything I wrote in that post I find it so hilarious that you don't even attempt to touch on the parts where I completely dismantled your argument but instead cling on to HOW I said it instead.

    Just say you were wrong dude, it's much easier than showing your whole ass to everyone here.
    Last edited by Somic; 2022-08-14 at 10:38 PM.

  11. #171
    Herald of the Titans Maruka's Avatar
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    Wait wow without it has a social aspect ?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post


    Because that's literally what you fucking said. You word for word said



    It allows you to achieve your goals quicker so you don't want it. Any person with the brain past the age of 10 can now come to the conclusion that you don't want your progress to come quicker. Which means it is slower by comparison. Are you really this stupid that I have to lay this out or are you attempting to argue your way out of your dumb stances.
    Wrong answer. Under no circumstances would I deliberately want to slow my progression down. That's a shame lol.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    What, you don't relish the opportunity to sit in Dalaran spamming trade chat for 45 minutes to grab a tank only for one of the DPS to leave halfway through the wait and then have the healer AFK out without saying anything?
    we live in a m+ world my dude,get a guild....find some friends,a comunity...jesus

  14. #174
    It definitely didn't. I'm flabbergasted it's not coming to Wotlk classic.. wrath heroics were known to be significantly brainless, and having to spend significantly more effort to get them going is just a pain point.

  15. #175
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    we live in a m+ world my dude,get a guild....find some friends,a comunity...jesus
    If someone has those things already, then RDF existing will have no impact on them in wotlk.

    Meanwhile, RDF not existing won't make people suddenly "have the time" to get involved in social aspects of the game.

    Back in either Cata or MoP Blizzard said as much; that if things like LFR and LFD didn't exist, it wouldn't "push people" to be more social; they just wouldn't do those activities.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    Wrong answer. Under no circumstances would I deliberately want to slow my progression down. That's a shame lol.
    Wow you’re going to really just snip this little piece here and walk away acting like what you said wasn’t completely incorrect this whole time huh? You’re really choosing to not learn a single thing from this and probably keep repeating it as well aren’t you

  17. #177
    Why do people care so much about Dungeon Finder impact? If it would not be added into WotLK, it would just be added later... it's the natural progression of features.

    WoW was not the first game to introduce random party maker for group content so sooner or later it would happen, as every other game would have it.

    And even then, if somehow Blizz would stick to their guns (like with cross faction), and not give us RFD, around 2018 Discord communities happened and they would just do the job.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i had, since march 2005, and VAST majority of people i met in dungeons before finder barely uttered hello, let alone more... and sure, people added you to friend list (and vice versa) if you did well and they contacted you later - usualy to do dungeon or raid or whatever, not for friendly chat... were some friendships formed via wow back then? sure, are some now? definitely, just bcs your personal experience is different doesnt change a damn thing...
    personaly, i made more friends in wow recently due to communities than i had made before in dungeons... hell i made more friends waiting for rare spawns on timeless isle (huolon im looking at you) than in dungeons in years before...
    Only thing I can base my opinions on are my personal experiences. I don't have access to any kind of social data to otherwise form opinions off of.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    Wow you’re going to really just snip this little piece here and walk away acting like what you said wasn’t completely incorrect this whole time huh? You’re really choosing to not learn a single thing from this and probably keep repeating it as well aren’t you
    It was really because it was funny to me how wrong you were in the part I quoted, and how sure you were of yourself in that part. Why do you think I'm not quoting the other parts?

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bianconeri View Post
    It was really because it was funny to me how wrong you were in the part I quoted, and how sure you were of yourself in that part. Why do you think I'm not quoting the other parts?
    Because you know you were wrong and you’re not acknowledging it. I specifically asked you to show me how the lack of RDF incentivizes you to go out in the world and the only things you have mentioned are systems that have nothing to do with rdf or the lack of rdf and you haven’t even attempted to explain it besides just repeating “rdf disincentivizes you going out in the world” with nothing else added.

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