Poll: Do you support the USA and Europe intervening to protect Taiwan against China?

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Why intervene in Taiwan vs anywhere else? Why is it the business of the US to tell another country how to handle territory disputes vs any other territory desputes throughout the world that we ignore?

    Don't tell me it's about democracy because what of the other nations? And it's not like the US is the most democratic nation in the world. Humanitarian aide? Same deal. How would we respond if another nation started to put themselves between the US and xyz Middle Eastern country?

    Why would we goad another country into hard and action to deter US intervention should we threaten to get involved? Why do we have this need to play with the lives of people on the other side of the world for Cold War era clout?


    How many people even know what the dispute is about? We going to champion them for a month like Ukraine then slowly walk away when things get real? Can't say I give a shit right now.
    People have the right to self determination. Powerful democratic countries should support that. Not hard is it?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    People have the right to self determination. Powerful democratic countries should support that. Not hard is it?
    I mean...this is the US we're talking about (at least in part). We don't have a remotely good track record when it comes to supporting self determination or "nation building".

    It's a super nice sentiment and all, but it's just a touch messier and more complex in reality. You're not exactly gonna get a ton of folks excited to sign up and go fight on behalf of another country they have no connection to in a war they don't care about over a cause they may not support.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean...this is the US we're talking about (at least in part). We don't have a remotely good track record when it comes to supporting self determination or "nation building".

    It's a super nice sentiment and all, but it's just a touch messier and more complex in reality. You're not exactly gonna get a ton of folks excited to sign up and go fight on behalf of another country they have no connection to in a war they don't care about over a cause they may not support.
    intervention doesnt mean boots on the ground. Example 1 : ukraine.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    intervention doesnt mean boots on the ground. Example 1 : ukraine.
    Seems like that kind of support wouldn't be remotely viable somewhere like Taiwan given its dramatically different geographic situation. Not to mention the differences between the Chinese and Russian military. Unless China has similarly largely been successful in convincing the world that their military is a serious, credible threat when it's actually a bunch of drunk guys who have spend the past few decades selling supplies and parts on the black market.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Seems like that kind of support wouldn't be remotely viable somewhere like Taiwan given its dramatically different geographic situation. Not to mention the differences between the Chinese and Russian military. Unless China has similarly largely been successful in convincing the world that their military is a serious, credible threat when it's actually a bunch of drunk guys who have spend the past few decades selling supplies and parts on the black market.
    sanctions + blockade + coalition friendly of Asian states = China very bad time.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    sanctions + blockade + coalition friendly of Asian states = China very bad time.
    It's just so simple /5head

    I mean in an ideal world yes, but I don't think that's remotely practical without -

    1. Causing a lot of domestic economic pain that will make justifying continued support increasingly difficult.

    2. Potentially provoke armed conflict via a blockade, nobody wants a hot war but people do dumb shit

    3. What coalition of friendly states there would have a meaningful impact? Japan's military is still defensive, though that might change. South Korea has North Korea to worry about and doesn't want to further piss off China if they can avoid it. SEA nations are unlikely to all jump on board, even if there's a fair chance of getting support from our "western" nations down there like AUS/NZ.

    Will it all also hurt China too? Absolutely. But as we've seen, China is pretty cool with going with extreme measures to maintain control over their population. Including rolling out tanks to intimidate people trying to get their money outta banks, IIRC.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's just so simple /5head

    I mean in an ideal world yes, but I don't think that's remotely practical without -

    1. Causing a lot of domestic economic pain that will make justifying continued support increasingly difficult.

    2. Potentially provoke armed conflict via a blockade, nobody wants a hot war but people do dumb shit

    3. What coalition of friendly states there would have a meaningful impact? Japan's military is still defensive, though that might change. South Korea has North Korea to worry about and doesn't want to further piss off China if they can avoid it. SEA nations are unlikely to all jump on board, even if there's a fair chance of getting support from our "western" nations down there like AUS/NZ.

    Will it all also hurt China too? Absolutely. But as we've seen, China is pretty cool with going with extreme measures to maintain control over their population. Including rolling out tanks to intimidate people trying to get their money outta banks, IIRC.
    so whats your solution just let Taiwan fold to an imperialist autocratic china with millions put into gulags?

    I'd like to think that if the UK got invaded by x the US would pump us full of arms and aggressively pressure our enemy with soft or hard power.

    Like what we are doing with Ukraine.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    so whats your solution just let Taiwan fold to an imperialist autocratic china with millions put into gulags?
    I don't have one, and I don't pretend to. Don't get me wrong, I support what you just argued for! But I have no illusions that it would be remotely anywhere near as effective as it has been in Ukraine, which is the unique beneficiary of having an extremely deeply incompetant and corrupt country invading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    I'd like to think that if the UK got invaded by x the US would pump us full of arms and aggressively pressure our enemy with soft or hard power.

    Like what we are doing with Ukraine.
    Well, the UK is part of NATO so that would trigger Article 5. Our treaty obligations are different based on each nation.

    And from a purely unemotional and PoV, and this is shitty to say but true: Not all countries are equal and are worth equal risk/investment. It sucks, but that's the reality of it.

  9. #29
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    People have the right to self determination. Powerful democratic countries should support that. Not hard is it?
    That's not what I'm saying...?

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I do support this initiative.

    What would be interesting is how I would feel is Hawaii or Alaska broke off from the United States and China was supporting their efforts. Global politics is a hoot.
    Wouldn’t be accurate, Alaska or Hawaii would have to have ALREADY broken off about a century ago and no one living has every been a part of them being part of the US for the US to say they want them back or that they were still part of the US despite not being in any way for their entire lives.

    And in that hypothetical, the US would be the bad guys.
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  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Wouldn’t be accurate, Alaska or Hawaii would have to have ALREADY broken off about a century ago and no one living has every been a part of them being part of the US for the US to say they want them back or that they were still part of the US despite not being in any way for their entire lives.

    And in that hypothetical, the US would be the bad guys.
    Also the analogy further doesn't make sense because China's current communist regime has never, at any point, governed Taiwan.

    The United States government most certainly has governed Alaska and Hawaii.

    The Chinese communists' claim to Taiwan is inherently illegitimate, much like China's government itself.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Clone's Avatar
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    Yes and no. Taiwan should be free to govern itself and needs all the support it can get. At the same time, US intervention produces results like Vietnam and Afghanistan.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Capitalist* China

    If we're talking about their economic system.

    Otherwise Authoritarian China also fits. Sure the ruling party is the Chinese Communist Party, but we all know that names aren't always accurate. The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea is not Democratic, nor is it a Republic.
    Yes, Russia today is a deeply right-wing country in so many ways, and yet, this has not stopped the Chinese from supporting their government in the slightest. And not just the Chinese state, Russia and Putin are very widely admired and strongly supported by the Chinese public also, seemingly, as strongmen who are leading their people to strength and revanchism. And people who break away from their "consensus" on Russia are labeled and attacked as national traitors.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/b...-invasion.html
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/18/asia/...hnk/index.html

    And they've also certainly not hesitated in eagerly spreading Russia's conspiracy theories on "biological weapon labs" in Ukraine:
    https://www.newsweek.com/chinas-clai...online-1687169
    https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...c4a20b7e018169

    It's actually the more conservative and traditional KMT in Taiwan which seems to be the most "pro-China" and critical of America and Japan today:
    https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/fro.../11/2003783335

    China itself arguably stopped being a truly Marxist state long ago, it's more capitalist than Taiwan arguably, and its brand of nationalism is very much like that of Russia's, in fact. I read a comment online from someone who commented on China's disputes with neighbors, that it was ironic that an "anti-imperialist" power is basing its territorial and maritime claims mostly on the conquests of past Chinese empires.

    Their recent talk of total "national rejuvenation" by reunifying with Taiwan, of avenging past humiliations and shame, and thereby restoring their ancient and supreme civilization to its former greatness and glory does not seem too progressive to me, but almost rather the exact opposite of what their ideology is supposed to teach.

    This kind of growing and deeply embedded nationalism, and taught to their children from a very early age, is not necessarily reminiscent of revolutionary Maoism, but of sadly other things. Perhaps it is not so surprising that so many people in China casually deny the things which are happening inside their country, never mind attitudes towards Taiwan. I find it kind of sad that some countries easily become what they once might have hated not so long ago.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-power-in-full

    Resolving the Taiwan question and realizing China's complete reunification is a shared aspiration of all the sons and daughters of the Chinese nation. It is indispensable for the realization of China's rejuvenation....The Chinese nation has achieved a historic transformation from standing upright to becoming prosperous and growing in strength, and national rejuvenation is driven by an unstoppable force. This marks a new starting point for reunification.
    Over its 5,000-year history, China has created a splendid culture that has shone throughout the world from past times to present, and has made an enormous contribution to human society. After a century of suffering and hardship, the nation has overcome humiliation, emerged from backwardness, and embraced boundless development opportunities. Now, it is striding towards the goal of national rejuvenation.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-08-17 at 04:21 AM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  14. #34
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    I have to support it, for the bullshit China is doing because Taiwan wishes to be a standalone nation, needs to stop. You can't, nor should you be permitted to rage and threat because you don't get your way. I'm looking at you as well, Russia.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Wouldn’t be accurate, Alaska or Hawaii would have to have ALREADY broken off about a century ago and no one living has every been a part of them being part of the US for the US to say they want them back or that they were still part of the US despite not being in any way for their entire lives.

    And in that hypothetical, the US would be the bad guys.
    Hawaii is a good example then because it was its own country but the United States forcibly took it over because of their natural resources and strategic positions. And just like Native Americans we are still denying them the rights of ownership to their land which we stole from them. I think at this point the whole good guy bad guy thing is for the main stream media there is no good guy in global politics it's all motivated by self interests mostly corporate or strategic.

  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Hawaii is a good example then because it was its own country but the United States forcibly took it over because of their natural resources and strategic positions. And just like Native Americans we are still denying them the rights of ownership to their land which we stole from them. I think at this point the whole good guy bad guy thing is for the main stream media there is no good guy in global politics it's all motivated by self interests mostly corporate or strategic.
    It's not a good comparison though because Hawaiians in general don't want to be independent from the USA in the same way that Taiwanese people in general want to be independent from mainland China and the CCP.
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-08-16 at 01:43 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's not a good comparison though because Hawaiians in general don't want to be independent from the USA in the same way that Taiwanese people in general want to be independent from mainland China and the CCP.
    And after a few generations the Taiwanese would no longer want to be free from China either similarly to all the colonies we've forcibly taken over.

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    And after a few generations the Taiwanese would no longer want to be free from China either similarly to all the colonies we've forcibly taken over.
    Nah they would simply disapprove of the CCP until the CCP gives its citizens all the modern human rights and liberties of a liberal democracy. Even mainland Chinese people will eventually demand their human rights and basic freedoms at some point, regardless of what happens with Taiwan.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Nah they would simply disapprove of the CCP until the CCP gives its citizens all the modern human rights and liberties of a liberal democracy. Even mainland Chinese people will eventually demand their human rights and basic freedoms at some point, regardless of what happens with Taiwan.
    Nope, history disagrees with you.

    Genocide + Forced Assimilation + Time = Acceptance

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Nope, history disagrees with you.

    Genocide + Forced Assimilation + Time = Acceptance
    Nah we'll find more ways to prevent genocide and authoritarian brainwashing. Civilization is improving over history and is not doomed to repeat it forever.

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