So… Tinkers

[Baroclinic]

After the tinkers in BfA islands I really expected it to happen.

[Rocksteady 87]

People like to be so sure of Tinkers every time they get brought up.

[less than a second later]

Will Tinkers be added in the next 6 years? No.

Oh sweet, self-oblivious irony.

Hunter is kinda like tinker already, I know you want 50+ classes in the game but that's not how Blizzard add to the classes in WoW.

Just... what?

We saw three different potential specs for the class concept in the Island Expeditions. None of them were particularly Hunterish, unless you want to consider non-mobile turrents a pet. In which case, I guess Shaman are Hunters, too?

It’s really dumb isn’t it? Undermine is the center of the Goblin world, ruled by TRADE princes who are incredibly wealthy, greedy and corrupt. Just look at what Blizzard did with the Goblin-controlled city of Gadgetzan in Hearthstone;

You’re telling me they couldn’t go just as crazy for Undermine? Undermine would be like this several times over.

A-yup. I mean, just look at any--literally any--of the tinkerish areas in WoW at present. Every single one of them is cosmopolitan to one degree or another. The only one that I can think of that could be argued against it is Gnomeregan, and that's only because it's (mostly) an instanced dungeon.

So change it from what it was into something different?

Nope.

But based upon seeing you in other threads, I wouldn't expect you to be capable of grasping the concept in the first place. Osmium comes to mind.

[Azerox]

Next xpac will be some gnome-time-shift-mechagon-style-theme with Tinkerers.

[Dawnseeker]

I do wonder if they could use a class skin system to fill in gaps like this, you could easily make skins for hunter and/or shaman that would fill the tinker fantasy.
The first being a roboticist, basically just reskinning hunter abilities to be more technological than wildcraft and making all pets mechanical, and the second being a more complex reskin, totems and spells reskinned as gadgets like a lightning gun, feral spirits and elementals being constructs, etc etc, make a bunch of mechagon quests to unlock them and you're done

[ResentfulUK]

Oh sweet, self-oblivious irony

I'm not oblivious to my statement at all. My point was that every expansion sees immense hype around how definitely Tinkers are coming that expansion.

Just look at my signature, and the whole thread it's a part of. The determination to create some sense of their belonging ignores all the real possibilities that they may never be included in the game.

My point about them not being included within the next 6 years wasn't so much a statement of fact, but rather an off the cuff comment. I think they may eventually create Tinkers, albeit it'll be as a last ditch effort when all others have failed to keep the game going.

I see WoW going free to play long, long before Tinkers are brought in.

They don't fit thematically and the frenzy around them is maddening. I truly wish that people would give up trying to make them work and fit. Blizzard has had ample opportunity to add them, and while those opportunities may come back around again, I'm almost certain it won't be anytime soon.

[Teriz]

They don't fit thematically and the frenzy around them is maddening. I truly wish that people would give up trying to make them work and fit. Blizzard has had ample opportunity to add them, and while those opportunities may come back around again, I'm almost certain it won't be anytime soon.

How would a class based on two long-running WoW races not fit? The Gnome and Goblin racial leaders are literally members of this class.

[Ielenia]

The Dragon Isles was originally a raid, Kul’Tiras was just an island populated by normal sized humans, and the Broken Isles wasn’t originally the size of a continent..

I'm not talking about 'game design'. Kul'tiras was never said to be populated by "normal sized humans". It was said to be populated by humans, and it is. Broken Isles are isles. How can they be continents?

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Bilgewater have zero lasting connections to Undermine since Gallywix left the Horde.

Gazlowe himself is a Trade Prince. Granted, I don'1t play Horde, much less a goblin, but I haven't hear anything about the Bilgewater Cartel cutting off all their ties to Undermine after Gallywix's departure.

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Nope.

Going from a goblin-only city to a 'melting pot' multi-racial hub is "changing it into something different".

[Teriz]

I'm not talking about 'game design'. Kul'tiras was never said to be populated by "normal sized humans". It was said to be populated by humans, and it is.

So you’re saying that Jaina looks like the Kul’Tiran race?

Broken Isles are isles. How can they be continents?

It rivaled the size of Pandaria;

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Map-Comparison

[Triceron]

Gazlowe himself is a Trade Prince. Granted, I don'1t play Horde, much less a goblin, but I haven't hear anything about the Bilgewater Cartel cutting off all their ties to Undermine after Gallywix's departure.

Narratively, what ties do they have to current day Undermine and all its cartels?

Cataclysm made it clear that Gallywix remained our only connection to the place, and since BFA, he left the Horde.

The Horde has zero ties to current day Undermine and any of its cartels.

Gazlowe is a Trade Prince by title of leadership of the Bilgewater Cartel. He has no formal connections to Undermine or the other Trade Princes, at least not any that we know of in the current narrative. Whether they retcon that or not is left to the future.


So what we're talking about is literally the Bilgewater Cartel starting from zero in having any relations to the rest of Undermine. The exact same as how the Alliance currently stands.

[Ielenia]

So you’re saying that Jaina looks like the Kul’Tiran race?

What kind of bullshit logic is this? No, seriously. You see one member of a faction and assume everyone in that faction looks exactly the same as that person? What? Did you also think all of the kul'tiran population (i.e. "race") was also female, because Jaina is female?

It rivaled the size of Pandaria;

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Map-Comparison

... Are you trolling me? No, seriously. Are you honestly taking a gameplay concession such as map size to imply that "Blizzard intended the Broken Isles to be as big as continents"? Map sizes are not lore accurate, Teriz. Go to Goldshire. How many buildings do you see there? Five? Well, guess what? In the lore, Goldshire is an entire, full-fledged town.

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Narratively, what ties do they have to current day Undermine and all its cartels?

I would image the cartel would have trade deals/contracts with Undermine.

Cataclysm made it clear that Gallywix remained our only connection to the place, and since BFA, he left the Horde.

Do you have something meatier than just "trust me on this"? Again, I didn't play the goblin storyline, and don't feel like doing so just to try to find one thing.

[Teriz]

What kind of bullshit logic is this? No, seriously. You see one member of a faction and assume everyone in that faction looks exactly the same as that person? What? Did you also think all of the kul'tiran population (i.e. "race") was also female, because Jaina is female?

You do know that Jaina wasn’t the only Kul’Tiran we encountered before BFA right? Her father also looked like a standard human. Also Kul’Tiran soldiers looked like standard humans as well. That was changed in BFA.

. Are you trolling me? No, seriously. Are you honestly taking a gameplay concession such as map size to imply that "Blizzard intended the Broken Isles to be as big as continents"? Map sizes are not lore accurate, Teriz. Go to Goldshire. How many buildings do you see there? Five? Well, guess what? In the lore, Goldshire is an entire, full-fledged town.

Irrelevant. The point is that they werent tiny isles, and their size were increased for the expansion. Since you’re fine with that, I suppose you’re okay with a city being made the size of a continent for the purpose of an expansion?

Speaking of which, the lore of Kul’Tiras never mentioned the Drust, and the lore of Zandalar never mentioned the Ghun, the Vulpera, or the Snake men. The lore of Pandaria never mentioned the Jinyu, Mogu, or Mantid.

It’s almost as if Blizzard expands the lore when they choose a locale for an expansion….

[Triceron]

Do you have something meatier than just "trust me on this"? Again, I didn't play the goblin storyline, and don't feel like doing so just to try to find one thing.

Well, what's there to say?

Cataclysm literally starts you off as a rising star Goblin entrepreneur, some cataclysm shit happens, you get slaved out by Gallywix, Thrall saves you and with your help defeat Gallywix, Thrall makes Gallywix leader of the Bilgewater (yes, total WTF). Fastforward to BFA where Gallywix abandons the Horde after a bad encounter with Mekkatorque, and Gazlowe becomes new leader (Trade Prince).

Your Goblin lost all ties to Kezan from the cataclysm event and literally being slaved out by Gallywix. Everything about the starting zone is about a fresh start with the Horde, so you and every other Bilgewater has zero connections to Undermine.

Everything else known about Goblins has been left to a standstill since BFA. So despite your comments about every race getting something every expansion, yeah that's not true whatsoever.

[Polyxo]

"Engineering: the class"

[Rocksteady 87]

"Engineering: the class"

Hunters: Engineering - The Class.
Priests and All Healer Specs: First Aid - The Class.
Death Knights and Every Ranged Spellcaster: Enchanting - The Class.
Warriors and All Melee/Armored Classes: Blacksmiths - The Class.
All Cloth Classes: Tailoring - The Class.

[Ielenia]

You do know that Jaina wasn’t the only Kul’Tiran we encountered before BFA right? Her father also looked like a standard human. Also Kul’Tiran soldiers looked like standard humans as well. That was changed in BFA.

You were the one who singled out Jaina as the "representative of all Kul'tirans".

Irrelevant. The point is that they werent tiny isles, and their size were increased for the expansion. Since you’re fine with that, I suppose you’re okay with a city being made the size of a continent for the purpose of an expansion?

It's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant at all. The in-game size of the landmasses are not accurate lore-wise. It's a gameplay concession to allow for a better game experience.

It’s almost as if Blizzard expands the lore when they choose a locale for an expansion….

Blizzard can expand the lore... except when it comes to necromancers, right? Because when it's about necromancers, it's all written and stone and cannot be changed in any way, shape or form, right?

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Well, what's there to say?

Cataclysm literally starts you off as a rising star Goblin entrepreneur, some cataclysm shit happens, you get slaved out by Gallywix, Thrall saves you and with your help defeat Gallywix, Thrall makes Gallywix leader of the Bilgewater (yes, total WTF). Fastforward to BFA where Gallywix abandons the Horde after a bad encounter with Mekkatorque, and Gazlowe becomes new leader (Trade Prince).

Your Goblin lost all ties to Kezan from the cataclysm event and literally being slaved out by Gallywix. Everything about the starting zone is about a fresh start with the Horde, so you and every other Bilgewater has zero connections to Undermine.

Everything else known about Goblins has been left to a standstill since BFA. So despite your comments about every race getting something every expansion, yeah that's not true whatsoever.

I fail to see how any of that means "severing all ties to the Undermine", honestly.

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Hunters: Engineering - The Class.
Priests and All Healer Specs: First Aid - The Class.
Death Knights and Every Ranged Spellcaster: Enchanting - The Class.
Warriors and All Melee/Armored Classes: Blacksmiths - The Class.
All Cloth Classes: Tailoring - The Class.

All that you wrote there are dishonest, but the two I boldened up are the biggest offenders. How can you equate plate-wearer fighters to blacksmiths? One is a warrior that is knowledgeable in the use of various types of weapon, and the other is the one that crafts said weapons. Those two are not equitable. Same thing with mages and tailors. Mages don't go around fighting by sewing two pieces of cloth together.

And please don't try to equate bandages and venom salves to healing and support magic.

As for the "tinker - engineering" comparison... guess what? One is about the creation and use of high-tech weapons and gadgets, and the other is about the creation and use of high-tech weapons and gadgets, since the tinker would, lore-wise, be the one creating his own stuff, and not buying graviton bombs and heat-seeking missiles from the local general store.

[Rocksteady 87]

All that you wrote there are dishonest, but the two I boldened up are the biggest offenders. How can you equate plate-wearer fighters to blacksmiths?

Not even remotely dishonest. Just as fucking delusional as all the nincompoops going around saying "DURR HURR, ENGINEERING DUH CLASS!"

It's exactly the same. Blacksmiths make weapons and armor to use in battle. Guess what Warriors do! They use weapons and armor in battle! Ergo, Blacksmithing: The Class in the "dumbed down to levels that make Donald Trump look like a fucking genius" levels.

One is a warrior that is knowledgeable in the use of various types of weapon, and the other is the one that crafts said weapons.

One is a skilled combatant or healer who uses technology to defeat their foes, and the other is a hobbyist who makes toys and glorified molotov cocktails that have never in the history of WoW been a vital aspect of the game (else every raider ever would be one 24/7).

Those two are not equitable.

Again, insert an old adage about a lack of feces and a famous fictional British detective here.

And please don't try to equate bandages and venom salves to healing and support magic.

Why? You equate toys and bombs to all the shit we've seen Tinkers use in the Island Expeditions. The fact that you're too god damned fucking obtuse to realize it is no one's concern but your own.

As for the "tinker - engineering" comparison... guess what? One is about the creation and use of high-tech weapons and gadgets, and the other is about the creation and use of high-tech weapons and gadgets, since the tinker would, lore-wise, be the one creating his own stuff, and not buying graviton bombs and heat-seeking missiles from the local general store.

"HEY YOU GUYS! Engineers don't just make toys and stuff, they use them too! But Blacksmiths? No way, they just make them and no one uses them, least of all themselves. YOU GUYS! COME ON! WHY AREN'T YOU GOING ALONG WITH THIS? They're not the same at all! Whaaaaaaaaaaa!"

[Teriz]

You were the one who singled out Jaina as the "representative of all Kul'tirans".

So are we going to address the point that Kul’Tirans didn’t look like huge bulky pirate people until BFA (Jaina and her father being prime examples), or are you going to continue to deflect?

It's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant at all. The in-game size of the landmasses are not accurate lore-wise. It's a gameplay concession to allow for a better game experience.

So once again, if they can make a tiny group of isles the size of Pandaria in-game, making Undermine a continent-sized landmass shouldn’t be a problem. Especially since Blizzard originally planned it that way.

Blizzard can expand the lore...

Then they can expand the lore of Undermine, just like they did for every other expansion locale.

[Goat7]

Honestly I think the Evoker / Dracthyr was a giant mistake.

I know it fits the expansion theme but it just seems so not interesting at all to me and some people ive spoke with. Tinker would of been cooler but if it was up to me, I would of just released the Ogre as playable neutral race, with all the Ogre appropriate classes and no new class. Simply because they suck at balancing what classes they already have.

[Florena]

In theory I'd love a dragon themed class way more than a tinker class.

I'm so far not thrilled with the implementation of Evoker though. The execution with the Dracthyr and having a race and class exclusive to one another kind of kills it for me.

[Teriz]

Honestly I think the Evoker / Dracthyr was a giant mistake.

A little off topic, but simply don’t see that being the case at all. You’re talking about a dragon class based on some of the most popular characters in WoW. The only real hangup for people seems to be that they walk on two legs instead of four.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re among the top 3 classes in WoW moving forward. They’re offering a lot of things other classes simply aren’t, and they’re RP potential is pretty insane.