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  1. #181
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurete View Post
    First, the fact that older gamers, the ones who started with the Diablo franchise and are now 30+ if not 40+, would prefer a game with trading purely because it is what we came to know and like (D2).
    Second, the "I like no trading" folks in this thread, and blizzard forums, seems to be less likely to provide a extensive response than those who are pro-trading. There's no way to prove that other than reading this and other threads on the subject, which I largely did.
    This is literally all in your head. I'm in my mid-40s, started with the original Diablo, hated the trading dynamics in D2 in particular, and have made fairly extensive posts about how little I think trading contributes in value to the game. The one pro-trading argument that I think holds merit was I think Edge's, when he talked about swapping gear between friends, to boost a friend or give them a super rare drop their main can use. I see value there, but don't play with a bunch of friends myself, so that value's pretty dependent on the user. Most of the trading didn't take that form, though, it was advertised auctioning/selling gear, whether for in-game currencies or real cash through third-party systems. And that's the kind of trading that I don't see any value to. For such trading to have value, drop rates need to be lowered such that it's difficult to get items worth trading, to encourage people to trade for them, and that hurts those who don't want to engage in trading. It creates really negative community dynamics and encourages exploitation and abuse in a lot of petty ways. And I don't see scanning auction houses or external forums hunting for needed gear or price-comparing between vendors to be productive and engaging gameplay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Now days you get a full set for any given class completing the seasonal objectives witch you can do in a couple hours then you farm the same set given it's the best set for your class witch most are next season but better stats, im going to play next season though but end game is mostly that and pushing higher rifts if you enjoy that.

    In going to try out the next season for a couple days as i usually do before getting bored. I hope d4 have a better end game for sure or more then rifts.
    I hope for the same, but it bears pointing out that rifts were a significant upgrade in terms of endgame over D2. They're at least fairly variable and there's some unique iterations that pop up. D2 had a few super-bosses, but mostly you were grinding certain levels over and over again to get loot drops; I still remember whipping around the Cow Level with a Javazon barely seeing anything die because lightning was killing everything for a screen-and-a-half's radius around me, as fast as I could run and throw, over and over, or grinding Mephisto over and over.

    D3's also got a better difficulty scaling system.

    D3's endgame is only okay in modern terms, but it was still a big improvement overall.


  2. #182
    Biggest issue with D3 were the scaling of player power. Jumping up like 40 grift lvls because you got the last set piece due to 4000% or more dmg scaling just made it bonkers.
    Wish they make the power lvls more akin to D2... think a mix of D2 and D3 is preferable to me. D2 power scaling with D3 end-game.


    Also:
    The idea that 30-40+ people are the ones prefering trading is just... I don't know where that come from. I'm not for the d2 trading system at all...
    I actually think that the ones who are for the D2 trading system are people who were either good at it so they could make profit or they liked to take advantage of others who didn't decide to research on values outside of the game.

    Even though trading in games usually are hailed as a very social experience and community comes together, my experience tells me it's the opposite. People trying to skim each other and try and get the good deal. People are interacting, but just to gain something at the expense of another.

    Though as mentioned, that's just my experience and I make no argument what the majority likes and think nor what age demographic is for or against what. Curious where the data for it to be a "fact" comes from.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-08-17 at 03:18 PM.

  3. #183
    Just give me D3's gameplay with PoE's diverse late/endgame
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Everything that makes diablo "diablo" is effectively dead. This is just Diablo 3.5.....


    Gotta say my excitement has completely tanked for this game.
    I don't really care about this issue. I play single-player most of the time. The class choices and abilities do not look as good as in diablo 3 but the world in diablo 4 looks like it will be a wide-open RPG world which is nice. I would rather have an in-game auction house, and a heavy crafting system, than trading with other players.

  5. #185
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Biggest issue with D3 were the scaling of player power. Jumping up like 40 grift lvls because you got the last set piece due to 4000% or more dmg scaling just made it bonkers.
    Wish they make the power lvls more akin to D2... think a mix of D2 and D3 is preferable to me. D2 power scaling with D3 end-game.
    Pretty much this. A huge part of your power is concentrated on getting the third set bonus which effectively defined how you would do damage in a build.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Biggest issue with D3 were the scaling of player power. Jumping up like 40 grift lvls because you got the last set piece due to 4000% or more dmg scaling just made it bonkers.
    Wish they make the power lvls more akin to D2... think a mix of D2 and D3 is preferable to me. D2 power scaling with D3 end-game.
    This is overwhelmingly a result of itemization design and D3 basically being built around "sets or GTFO", which is terrible design for an ARPG in my opinion since it makes loot extremely boring and binary and results in, as you say, massive power spikes with the gain of a single item. I'm all for big power spikes with key items, but set bonuses in D3 are just absurd, even ignoring the hilarious stat inflation across the board.

    Sounds like they're moving D4 away from that itemization design in general. I imagine uniques/sets will still be very attractive items, but I just hope they're not the only items that will matter and that we can realistically build around rare drops and whatnot. Even if it's just for some niche/specific builds.

    Edit: I know it probably won't happen, but I'd be down if they did something like "warbands" from D:I where you could share gear amongst your warband. Would have to build in some limits to avoid abusing "warband hopping" and whatnot, but at least being able to build a core group of friends who can share gear with each other would be very nice.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2022-08-17 at 07:08 PM.

  7. #187
    This is a good thing and D3 is a great game that still has people hating on it because they were butthurt about the bad launch. A system like D2's inevitably makes the best items impossible to get without participating in the trading game due to their rarity. It was not possible to get an Enigma or BoTD just from "playing the game" because the items required to get it were like a 0.000001% drop and u needed multiple of them (rare runes). Its not a system we need to revisit no matter how much nostalgia ppl have over it.

  8. #188
    I actually think both systems have pros and cons, and as long as the finished product is all it can be.. I’ll be fine either way.

    I’ve played Diablo since Diablo 1, and d2 trading has its perks. Like being able to set up alts, friends, family… with BiS that you found. On the downside, it also made it easy for people to item dupe, essentially ruining the touted economy. The same economy that, to this day in d2, you have to use third party sites to even use. Sure it’s fair, but it’s not convenient or easy for the average gamer.

    If item trading is going to exist, it needs to be group trading (with some sort of clan trading as well) or a sort of controlled WoW like AH for transactions in an in game currency where it’s easily accessible in game without any hassle

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    This is a good thing and D3 is a great game that still has people hating on it because they were butthurt about the bad launch. A system like D2's inevitably makes the best items impossible to get without participating in the trading game due to their rarity. It was not possible to get an Enigma or BoTD just from "playing the game" because the items required to get it were like a 0.000001% drop and u needed multiple of them (rare runes). Its not a system we need to revisit no matter how much nostalgia ppl have over it.
    D3 is a great game with some improvements like the combat, but people hate on it because of its Disney-fied aesthetic and pg story vs d1-2’s much more adult oriented and horror inspired art style, story, and aesthetic.

    My negative opinions about d3 won’t ever change because it’s my subjective dislike for the more Disney channel presents “Diablo” art style they went with over the original 2. But a lot of d2 fans ignore the improvements that d3 made like the combat. The combat is genuinely fantastic in d3 and never gets old

  9. #189
    Have they actually said no drops tradeable while in group?

    That would be an awful change. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest though
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I’ve played Diablo since Diablo 1, and d2 trading has its perks. Like being able to set up alts, friends, family… with BiS that you found.
    The downsides are almost always more interesting than the upsides, though. It's easy to create incidental cases that highlight the benefits of trading - but downsides can be universal, and active all the time (like e.g. drop rate adjustments) while many upsides are only sporadic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If item trading is going to exist, it needs to be group trading (with some sort of clan trading as well) or a sort of controlled WoW like AH for transactions in an in game currency where it’s easily accessible in game without any hassle
    That's probably the WORST way for trading to exist. Centralized platform/currency make trading more efficient and safe, but that also means it becomes a LOT more prevalent - and as a result, its impact on the game as a whole is proportionately magnified. PoE largely gets away with trading precisely because they DON'T have a centralized currency and they DON'T have a streamlined platform to facilitate it. It would make that game much worse if either (or both) of those were around.

    As for clan-based trading, that's been brought up before but not implemented for the simple reason that it would have staggering abuse potential. The last thing you want is the <xXxD4itemsxXx> clan with 50,000 members where you get your RMT purchases fed to you by a team of farmers. Which is exactly what would happen three seconds after this change. And it'd scale down to the last, with people whoring themselves out for profit all across the board. It would be miserable and toxic.

    In-group trading like we have in D3 right now is probably not that bad. Yes it does create that silly differential where solo players can never compete with group players on anything, but it's the least of all the trading evils, and it does have the significant upside of facilitating friend & family style plays without TOO MUCH of a global impact. Especially if there's no competitive ranking system like there is in D3, or if there's a dedicated SSF mode of some kind.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    This is a good thing and D3 is a great game that still has people hating on it because they were butthurt about the bad launch.
    Or...because there are simply criticisms about the decision. I have plenty of criticisms for D3 that have nothing to do with some of the bad early decisions at its initial launch, even after RoS considerably improved the game across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    A system like D2's inevitably makes the best items impossible to get without participating in the trading game due to their rarity.
    Not remotely true. Drops can be balanced however Blizzard wants, and there are tons of ways to prevent this including making the "real" top-end drops bind on pickup/account bound so they can't be traded.

  12. #192
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not remotely true. Drops can be balanced however Blizzard wants, and there are tons of ways to prevent this including making the "real" top-end drops bind on pickup/account bound so they can't be traded.
    There's some validity there; if it's easy enough to farm for the drops you need, trading isn't needed because you can farm it yourself. If it's so rare you can't reasonably expect to grind it out yourself, that's where trading shines, but it necessitates that rarity in return. The exceptions to that are generally either A> paying to not bother grinding, which in an ARPG like Diablo translates to "paying to not play the game", and B> trading currencies, if there's multiple currencies going around that are tradeable, to get more of one and get rid of a glut of another, assuming proportional values to both. And I don't feel B> is what people are talking about.

    If I want that sweet, sweet top-shelf weapon, and the only way I can feasibly get it is by trading with someone who got super lucky and doesn't want it, it's because I'm likely never gonna run across it myself. And if I can feasibly get it myself, I'm not sure what draw trading really has.

    And sure, there's people who have limited game time and I don't have an issue with such players taking shortcuts, but I find it odd they'd want to play a genre whose strength is in repeated grinding, like Diablo, over something more immediately competitive with short match lengths or something more story- or exploration-focused where they could make measurable progress each session.


  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by gurete View Post
    Yes, there are assumptions. As I pointed on my post. They are not based on guts or feelings, though, but on numbers and metrics. I attempted to explain on each of them my logical reasoning to reach that conclusion (but probably fail, seeing your response). if you were in a shooter game.
    Your posts are nonsensical and wreak of confirmation bias.

    In a short example of this, on the first page of this thread alone there are 2 posters that are clearly pro-trading, 2-3 posts that espouse no position but only information, and 15 separate posters who are clearly happy with the choice. This is a ratio that continues through the thread, though it becomes harder to track given repeat posts by the same users.

    For you to claim 2/3 of posters dislike the choice requires wilfull misinformation.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Your posts are nonsensical and wreak of confirmation bias.

    In a short example of this, on the first page of this thread alone there are 2 posters that are clearly pro-trading, 2-3 posts that espouse no position but only information, and 15 separate posters who are clearly happy with the choice. This is a ratio that continues through the thread, though it becomes harder to track given repeat posts by the same users.

    For you to claim 2/3 of posters dislike the choice requires wilfull misinformation.
    You see, you are one of the people I mentioned in my post. Unable to keep your attention on to do a -quite easy- accounting of posts. Making up the numbers as you just did just shows that severe disability of yours. 15 people clearly happy with the choice? Seriously? Maybe in the whole thread. And that is, counting the 1 liners as full responses.

    If you were a young gamer, you would be quite a confirmation of my impressions.

    Anyone following this thread with interest enough to post in it should at least read it, and everyone can make a good impression on what the community overall reaction is to this leaked information. Except, that is, for those, like you, who cannot read 8 pages and think it's hard to follow a trend.
    Last edited by gurete; 2022-08-17 at 10:27 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by gurete View Post
    You see, you are one of the people I mentioned in my post. Unable to keep your attention on to do a -quite easy- accounting of posts. Making up the numbers as you just did just shows that severe disability of yours. 15 people clearly happy with the choice? Seriously? Maybe in the whole thread. And that is, counting the 1 liners as full responses.

    If you were a young gamer, you would be quite a confirmation of my impressions.

    Anyone following this thread with interest enough to post in it should at least read it, and everyone can make a good impression on what the community overall reaction is to this leaked information. Except, that is, for those, like you, who cannot read 8 pages and think it's hard to follow a trend.
    -Manoluck (original poster) - against (my excitement has died)
    +Nymrohd - Played for gameplay, not trading. Support endgame with progression instead of barter.
    =SinR - no opinion given
    +Greyvax - after playing D2r, trading was exausting, took an inordinate amount of time. Let it go.
    =Manoluck - repeat poster
    +Squigglyo - making fun of the op for sugesting that D2 was about not getting what you want from gameplay and relying on other people
    =SinR - no opinion given
    =Khazra-R - Argues for "hybrid", doesn't agree trading "makes" Diablo.
    +ParanoiD84 - Plays SSF with brother, thinks trading is dumb. Can see argument for trading, doesn't want to trade.
    =Somic - no opinion given
    +mrgreenthump - "Hasnt minded no trading in D3, might not be bad. D3 sucks because no content, not no trading."
    +Kumorii - "Trading I don't care for, class restricted drops suck"
    +Endus - Playing diablo since original, zero interest in trading.
    -Edge - Edge is a pro trader, no doubt.
    +Santti - Clear anti-trade. No trade was one of the best things about D3.
    +Witchblade77 - "oh thank fuck", trading doesn't make diablo, never has.
    +bledgor - I Fucking hate trading, I am playing an ACTION RPG not a trading simulator
    =Edge - repeat poster
    =Santti - repeat poster

    2 against, 10 for, on the first page. The rest are either repeat posters or stating facts rather than describing their stance on them.

    You claim I don't pay attention and account for posts, but since the evidence is clear for all to see, you are describing yourself.

    A quick accounting of following pages makes it seem that the ratio SLIGHTLY shifts more favourably toward pro-trading, but certainly not to the point where there are more people who want it than who don't. 2/3rds is utterly absurd; as I said; clear confirmation bias.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-08-18 at 01:34 AM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post

    2 against, 10 for, on the first page. The rest are either repeat posters or stating facts rather than describing their stance on them.

    You claim I don't pay attention and account for posts, but since the evidence is clear for all to see, you are describing yourself.

    .
    This is ridiculous, man/kid.

    Trying to pick the first page because it offers a vision best suited for your interest? Not even going for 2 or 3 pages?
    Not even mentioning the fact that anti-trading opinions are non-based, 1-liners?
    Trying to set a position on people who have clearly expressed an undecided opinion to fit your bias?

    I'm afraid the only evidence being shown here is your mental age.

    Anyhow, feel free to respond, I won't. Not here to get the thread any more toxic, you do that yourself just fine. Good riddance.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by gurete View Post
    This is ridiculous, man/kid.

    Trying to pick the first page because it offers a vision best suited for your interest? Not even going for 2 or 3 pages?
    You're the one that claimed 2/3rds of people are pro-trading, I provided evidence to the contrary. I even MENTIONED the following pages, which you failed to address. I am disproving something you didn't even bother to prove in the first place.
    Not even mentioning the fact that anti-trading opinions are non-based, 1-liners?
    Why should your opinion on their reason for disliking trade matter even a little bit? That is to say, even if this was true, which it simply isn't any more than pro-traders are. A significant number of pro-trade people's posts are simply one line to the effect of "count me out".. the end. Again; your confirmation bias allows you to ignore this.
    Trying to set a position on people who have clearly expressed an undecided opinion to fit your bias?
    Name a single one.

    I'm afraid the only evidence being shown here is your mental age.

    Anyhow, feel free to respond, I won't. Not here to get the thread any more toxic, you do that yourself just fine. Good riddance.
    You're the one who went toxic, nobody else in the thread has.

    I absolutely will respond, because you absolutely will read it even if you pretend you don't. You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it.

    These are the claims you made in your first post in the topic, to which I replied, leading to YOU trying to call ME out on being disingenuous and toxic.
    There seems to be about 2/3 of people really hating the leaked "no trading" info, and 1/3 of people saying they are fine with that.
    This is demonstrably false, as I have already done. You claim I need to go three pages deep to disprove a claim that YOU made and that I have already disproven. You're the one making the observably nonsensical claim. I've provided evidence to show that what you say is false, you have provided none to show otherwise.

    Also, the people who say "it's a good change", in almost every case, do not make any lengthy explanation. Honestly, I seem inclined to think that this audience seem to be the younger guys , short attention span, that will play anything as long as it doesn't require much effort.
    Painting people that disagree with you in a negative light, simply because they disagree with you. This is toxicity in its most basic form. Besides the fact that what you say is plainly false (again, your confirmation bias working against you), even if it were true, the relative length of post is utterly irrelevant to people's reasons for enjoying or disliking a game feature. You claim it's the "younger guys" who support no trading, despite the fact that a great many of us discuss experience with D2, which came out in 2000. Most people who played D2 in its prime during LoD in the early 2000s, and most of those people are in their mid 30s at a minimum. I am 40 and I played D2 on release. Trading in D2 was a dogshit experience for me, however good the game was. I don't begrudge you your OPINION that states otherwise, but don't let your confirmation bias disguise your unpopular opinion in your own mind.

    It would be a big surprise if they choose to cater to that audience again, after the d3 experience. Taking the no-trading route in RoS made a better short-term game ; in hindsight, probably was one of the main factors of the inability of the game to retain their MAUs, as it evolved into a shallower game, removing the trading endgame which led to a longer endgame. So, choosing a different path would have been a better route long term; this is speculation, but based on numbers, so we could say it's an educated guess.

    No doubt these considerations are easily extracted by Blizzard economists, after all they are the ones designing in-game economy.

    But yet, this is Blizzard, and every decision they've been taking lately seems ill-informed. Still, I cannot see how this decision would help the game sell more copies or have a robust source of income post-launch, quite the opposite.
    It's a guess, but it is certainly not an educated one. It relies on multiple assumptions for which you have no evidence besides, again, your own confirmation bias.

    If you want to avoid making a thread toxic, don't paint the people you disagree with in an obviously negative light, and don't overtly lie to support your case, then call the people providing evidence that disproves you toxic. That's not how argument works. Calling me a kid rather than arguing and providing evidence to support your point does no harm to me; only to you.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-08-18 at 07:02 AM.

  18. #198
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is overwhelmingly a result of itemization design and D3 basically being built around "sets or GTFO", which is terrible design for an ARPG in my opinion since it makes loot extremely boring and binary and results in, as you say, massive power spikes with the gain of a single item. I'm all for big power spikes with key items, but set bonuses in D3 are just absurd, even ignoring the hilarious stat inflation across the board.
    Always thought they should just remove one "0" from the 6 set bonus of the different sets and just move that player power into a paragon system instead. Would love more interesting paragon trees like DI has as well; the D4 paragon trees seem overwhelming at first glance but I expect they'll be reasonably intuitive (I will hate it on principle if they are NOT intuitive but meant to be full of traps for "noobs").

  19. #199
    Diablo 1 allowed trading but items were all duped so there was no economy. Diablo 2 is the only diablo game that really allowed trading and it was full of RMT and scams.

    I would like to see an auction house in D4 but it needs to be done in a way to avoid RMT. Black desert online has a really good setup (well they did before they allowed you to buy items off their store and sell on the AH). BDO makes it impossible for outsiders to RMT.

  20. #200
    The problem with having an AH in Diablo (or PoE) is that gearing becomes more about farming currency to buy your gear with then farming actual gear itself.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

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