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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Yeah, sure. The beauty of it wasn't all that great, when it felt like AH was the only source of anything good, and felt almost pressured to use it. That was one of the major complaints of the Diablo 3 AH. It felt pointless to farm anything, because anything good never dropped, and as the prices kept going down and down as game matured, people started playing the AH more than the actual game. It was shit.
    D3 AH was a crap idea, terribly implement, that everyone said as much about the second it was announced. Nobody wants that back. But player trading should remain an option. I don't mind if they lock super-high-end loot out from trading so you still need to farm that yourself, but not being able to share gear to help a friend get a leg up on endgame and whatnot is just lame.

    The drop problem with D3 wasn't because of the AH, it was because of terrible decisions at Blizzard and bad philosophies. They said as much in a GDC talk about RoS years after it launched, which is why they upped drop rates. They took the wrong lessons from D2 and why people played it for so long.

  2. #22
    This is a bummer. say so long to give friends and family items as you play with them. it's all personal loot and BoP. Gone are the days I see an excellent item for my barb buddy and I can't even trade anything to them worthwhile. even with the specific loot to your class ruins that too. oh well. they really are turning this into a forced solo game.

    "My memory... since when? If everything is a dream, don't wake me." -Cloud Strife, Final Fantasy VII

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Yeah, sure. The beauty of it wasn't all that great, when it felt like AH was the only source of anything good, and felt almost pressured to use it. That was one of the major complaints of the Diablo 3 AH. It felt pointless to farm anything, because anything good never dropped, and as the prices kept going down and down as game matured, people started playing the AH more than the actual game. It was shit.
    That's a problem with itemization and scarcity, not trading. PoE has trading, but its solo self-found mode feels balanced as well, and a lot of people prefer it over trade league. You can 100% progress your character to the point where you beat all content with it, even without trading; it just requires some game & crafting knowledge.

    Plus you can make private leagues where you can just trade with your buddies without having to use trade site/auction house.

    Not having trading at all deprives you of that as well, you're just kinda playing next to each other.
    I guess a lot of people are fine with that, but to me it sounds very weird in a game that kicks the usual Diablo conventions to force you into an open world to see and interact with other players.
    Last edited by bajcli; 2022-08-12 at 05:03 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's the beauty of trading: You never actually have to! You can play an ARPG like PoE or D2 as long as you want and literally never trade with another person, even if the system exists to allow it.
    exactly. and I wouldn't really call dropping a weapon/armor on the ground for your barb buddy 'the trading game' (to the person you were replying to). I will miss finding something that was potentially awesome for the person I am playing with and dropping it on the ground for them to oooooooooooh at and enjoy it.

    "My memory... since when? If everything is a dream, don't wake me." -Cloud Strife, Final Fantasy VII

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Somic View Post
    Dude it’s a friends and family alpha, of course you’re not going to get a source on this because everyone is under an NDA. Duh.

    https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/be...t-loot-trading

    They have reported that set items, legendaries, and tier pieces as well as gold can’t be traded.

    It seems you can trade low tier items but that’s about it.
    That's incredibly strange. I feel like all of the pre-release information discussed the fact that there would be trading in the game.

    This seems like the exact opposite of that original stance, and there's been no mention of it publicly.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TbouncerT View Post
    oh well. they really are turning this into a forced solo game.
    Easier to get people to buy loot boxes and pay for energy recharges when they're forced to participate in the hunt for perfect RNG items.

    Quote Originally Posted by bajcli View Post
    That's a problem with itemization and scarcity, not trading. PoE has trading, but its solo self-found mode feels balanced as well, and a lot of people prefer it over trade league. You can 100% progress your character to the point where you beat all content with it, even without trading; it just requires some game & crafting knowledge.
    I know this isn't quite your point, but I am personally sick of seeing this particular thought used as to why a loot system is fine. "You can beat the game just fine without having BIS!" Yes, but I fucking WANT to be BIS. I want my character's gear progression to stop. I want to get the satisfaction of knowing I'm "full build" and can now enjoy being maximum possible power for a while. I'm sick of games restricting me from ever obtaining that because they're trying to artificially extend what is realistically 40 hours of novel content into multiple hundreds of hours via repeat runs trying to get "the good stuff."

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I know this isn't quite your point, but I am personally sick of seeing this particular thought used as to why a loot system is fine. "You can beat the game just fine without having BIS!" Yes, but I fucking WANT to be BIS. I want my character's gear progression to stop. I want to get the satisfaction of knowing I'm "full build" and can now enjoy being maximum possible power for a while. I'm sick of games restricting me from ever obtaining that because they're trying to artificially extend what is realistically 40 hours of novel content into multiple hundreds of hours via repeat runs trying to get "the good stuff."
    But like...the gear chase is one of the whole points of the ARPG genre. Sure you can always theoretically get BIS gear and be "done", but more often than not there will always be small upgrades to chase after for "true BIS" to keep you playing, if you're into that kinda thing. You don't need "true BIS" by any means and it should absolutely be difficult to attain. But you can still be "strong" and farm stuff pretty easily even without it in most ARPG's. And if your goal is "true BIS" so you can enjoy having a fully built character, then trading would postneit

    The bolded is legit the core gameplay loop of the whole ARPG genre and it sounds like you want more of an MMO with ARPG trappings (a la Lost Ark, at least as a very high level concept) than an ARPG with some MMO elements. Which I guess is good news for you because that's what Blizzard seems to be working towards with D4 in general.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's the beauty of trading: You never actually have to! You can play an ARPG like PoE or D2 as long as you want and literally never trade with another person, even if the system exists to allow it.
    It's not though. Game devs have this evil mentality of balancing the drops to the loot system. So having trading, you will likely get items at the same pace as not having trading. The difference is that if you have trading and player doesn't participate in trading, that player is worse off. You say you never have to but your life is infinately easier in PoE if you trade. In PoE you buy the gear you need rather than loot it, while it's somewhat fun, I don't want another game like PoE. I want something different. If you don't want a game without trading, play PoE.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That's incredibly strange. I feel like all of the pre-release information discussed the fact that there would be trading in the game.

    This seems like the exact opposite of that original stance, and there's been no mention of it publicly.
    I don't know as soon as they said you could extract legendary powers and put them on another gear piece, it seemed like trading was out of the question.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    It's not though. Game devs have this evil mentality of balancing the drops to the loot system.
    This isn't remotely true. PoE, one of the bigger ARPG's, doesn't do this at all and essentially balances around SSF (solo-self-found) so that you can progress fine without needing to trade with anyone. I've got a few fairly strong characters built there and my brother basically went from trade-league to SSF only and has all his strongest characters there with gear he purely found/made himself. 0 trading.

    D3's problems weren't that gear drops were balanced around the AH, they were due to the devs taking the wrong lessons from D2 and why folks liked items in it and thinking that increased item scarcity would inherently make people more excited/happy with the few drops they got.



    Forget exactly where it is in the video, but it's a great watch/listen all the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    So having trading, you will likely get items at the same pace as not having trading.
    Again, 100% in control of the developers. They can ensure a smooth progression experience without trading.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    The difference is that if you have trading and player doesn't participate in trading, that player is worse off.
    Worse off how? Progressing slower? Alright, but do they want to progress faster or are they happy with their current progression? Will they complain they get to "built" too quickly via trading and find characters boring? Not everything is about a metric comparing yourself to someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    You say you never have to but your life is infinately easier in PoE if you trade. In PoE you buy the gear you need rather than loot it, while it's somewhat fun, I don't want another game like PoE. I want something different. If you don't want a game without trading, play PoE.
    Again, the SSF experience in PoE is perfectly fine, and you can replicate it on trade league if you want. I don't trade that much when I play trade leagues, usually just for a few starter items/key items for my build so I'm not left farming endless without key components to make my build work/effective. But outside of that I'm not trading a ton except for specific items here or there that come from content I don't play (alt-quality gems from Heist or something) or for more RNG-based drops where I may not be lucking out (i.e. finding a bunch of Watchers Eye's that aren't useful for me, but wanting one that is).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TbouncerT View Post
    This is a bummer. say so long to give friends and family items as you play with them. it's all personal loot and BoP. Gone are the days I see an excellent item for my barb buddy and I can't even trade anything to them worthwhile. even with the specific loot to your class ruins that too. oh well. they really are turning this into a forced solo game.
    It's kind of a similar issue that Blizz danced around with Master Loot and Personal Loot in WoW. Ironically enough, they're going back to allowing ML in Dragonflight despite their arguments for PL likely being similar to having D4 loot be PL (if everything is true and stays the same). My main issue with PL was that it actually made loot situations worse for a lot of people, because you didn't always want something that was tailored to your class, you got items that may technically be an upgrade for you but couldn't give them to your friends/family/guild if you felt they needed it more, etc. All this was to try to solve a problem that probably wasn't that big of a deal (since Blizz is very good at trying to solve problems that don't necessarily exist), especially since Blizz is rolling back their changes after several years.

    While it remains to be seen as everything D4 is still in testing, a semi-happy medium would be that you can have free trading within your play session with whomever you're playing with. Only thing you'd have to potentially worry about is boosting making it faster to acquire gear or funneling it to another player, but you're going to have boosting anyways regardless of the loot setting.

    When it comes to smart loot... ugh, that's one of those things where it really depends upon the player. I'd almost wish you could toggle between Smart Loot and pure random drops, especially if you can stash stuff for alts. Granted D3's smart loot still will get you random class sets/items for others beyond your current char, it's still pretty low. Maybe this can be fixed via a crafting system that would convert items to something useful on alts, as such a system wouldn't be an issue if you cannot trade items at all.

    Overall, still to many unknowns, but Blizz's history when it comes to decisions like these is shaky at best. Still feels like they try to over-regulate or try to hyper-optimize their systems when they don't need to, fearing issues that don't exist or will be minor.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Easier to get people to buy loot boxes and pay for energy recharges when they're forced to participate in the hunt for perfect RNG items.



    I know this isn't quite your point, but I am personally sick of seeing this particular thought used as to why a loot system is fine. "You can beat the game just fine without having BIS!" Yes, but I fucking WANT to be BIS. I want my character's gear progression to stop. I want to get the satisfaction of knowing I'm "full build" and can now enjoy being maximum possible power for a while. I'm sick of games restricting me from ever obtaining that because they're trying to artificially extend what is realistically 40 hours of novel content into multiple hundreds of hours via repeat runs trying to get "the good stuff."
    Yeah I get that. I'm like that in WoW, but I don't really mind it in something like PoE or even Diablo 2.
    Considering that most of the items have variable rolls, I never even had it as a goal, and I've always played ARPGs where the absolute best is prohibitively rare/expensive and also quite unnecessary because the builds function just as well without them.
    Plus I personally like having "chase" items that you think of as a big lottery win if they do happen, but not something that I plan around. But yeah, a lot of people hate it, and that's fine. (Incidentally, I reckon that's a pretty good argument for trading as well -- being able to work towards your best items piece by piece is pretty cool. But then again, some people like to just get the whole package straight away and THEN start playing. Who knows.)

  12. #32
    Trading or no trading, what the diablo franchise needs is a game with actual end game instead being pointless and consisting of the exact same gameplay after the campaign is done.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I don't know as soon as they said you could extract legendary powers and put them on another gear piece, it seemed like trading was out of the question.
    See that's what's strange to me. I remember reading this and being under the impression that either the extracted powers or the items themselves would be tradeable, but not an item that you specifically applied a legendary power to.

    I'll have to go back and figure out why I possibly thought this. Just seems very strange.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    But like...the gear chase is one of the whole points of the ARPG genre. Sure you can always theoretically get BIS gear and be "done", but more often than not there will always be small upgrades to chase after for "true BIS" to keep you playing, if you're into that kinda thing. You don't need "true BIS" by any means and it should absolutely be difficult to attain. But you can still be "strong" and farm stuff pretty easily even without it in most ARPG's. And if your goal is "true BIS" so you can enjoy having a fully built character, then trading would postneit

    The bolded is legit the core gameplay loop of the whole ARPG genre and it sounds like you want more of an MMO with ARPG trappings (a la Lost Ark, at least as a very high level concept) than an ARPG with some MMO elements. Which I guess is good news for you because that's what Blizzard seems to be working towards with D4 in general.
    I agree with this sentiment as well.

    The entire ARPG genre is about chasing down BiS gear forever and ever. I don't know if D3's acceptance of letting everybody have a reasonable shot of being BiS is the best way to handle it, but it might be? How they basically focus on seasons as being the core gameplay mode and the non seasonal stuff is either for casual players or the wild wild west where the most absurd characters lay.

    I, personally, appreciate this approach as it provides you the means to be BiS on non seasonal while still giving you reasons to keep farming on seasonal play. Other than that VERY specific aspect, I think D3 is inferior to D2 in most ways. I would be keen on having a game that is more like D2 but with a gameplay loop for gearing that matches D3 so people can realistically have the best of both worlds.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    But like...the gear chase is one of the whole points of the ARPG genre. Sure you can always theoretically get BIS gear and be "done", but more often than not there will always be small upgrades to chase after for "true BIS" to keep you playing, if you're into that kinda thing. You don't need "true BIS" by any means and it should absolutely be difficult to attain. But you can still be "strong" and farm stuff pretty easily even without it in most ARPG's. And if your goal is "true BIS" so you can enjoy having a fully built character, then trading would postneit

    The bolded is legit the core gameplay loop of the whole ARPG genre and it sounds like you want more of an MMO with ARPG trappings (a la Lost Ark, at least as a very high level concept) than an ARPG with some MMO elements. Which I guess is good news for you because that's what Blizzard seems to be working towards with D4 in general.
    Thats some premium level copium for what is an obvious way of slowing down gear progression. And I'm gonna go out of a limb here and say there will be ways of getting gear with real money.

    All at the expense of being able to give your friend you've been running rifts with the ring that happened to drop for you and that doesnt really work with your build but completes their build so its a win win for both. Except Bobby's exploitative business practices.

    But yeah ARPG game play loop man.
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  15. #35
    My guess is it will work the same way as the D3 where if you're in a group with somebody you can trade the items that drop when you're together and that's about it.
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2022-08-13 at 01:19 AM.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Everything that makes diablo "diablo" is effectively dead. This is just Diablo 3.5.....


    Gotta say my excitement has completely tanked for this game.
    good,a game where the best way to play and gear up is to get a job instead of actualy playing the game,is shit design,im sure blizzard will find plenty of ways to make diablo 4 a shit game,but THIS,isnt one of them

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Everything that makes diablo "diablo" is effectively dead. This is just Diablo 3.5.....


    Gotta say my excitement has completely tanked for this game.
    A game doesnt require trading to be considered diablo lol, D3 is far more successfull than D2 ever was because it had good gameplay, all D4 needs to do is give even more gameplay options and it will be even better, trading ends up being essential and a chore when you can just focus on actually playing the game.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    D3 AH was a crap idea, terribly implement, that everyone said as much about the second it was announced. Nobody wants that back. But player trading should remain an option. I don't mind if they lock super-high-end loot out from trading so you still need to farm that yourself, but not being able to share gear to help a friend get a leg up on endgame and whatnot is just lame.

    The drop problem with D3 wasn't because of the AH, it was because of terrible decisions at Blizzard and bad philosophies. They said as much in a GDC talk about RoS years after it launched, which is why they upped drop rates. They took the wrong lessons from D2 and why people played it for so long.
    I'm sure we will see such a system again. It was basically an early stage in-game NFT market and every company is now trying to figure out how to make it acceptable.

    You could say Blizzard was just...Ahead of the Curve.

  19. #39
    If true won't buy.

  20. #40
    oh well the game sucks anyways

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