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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    Uncapped valor feels great, and it's also really fun to run a lot of M+ now at the start of the season! I'm far from elite, but have run a bunch and currently sitting at 1771 rating, and nearly all my slots are 291 at this point. (spent 5k valor already, oops.)

    The thing is, as long as raid is capped at loot once per week per boss, heroic raids can't compete at all. Our guild is currently stuck running normal, even though we got curve in s3, due to a mix of returning players and some players who don't do M+. And I really don't want to even talk about forcing our raiders to do content they don't like and don't have time for, but...we're looking at a gear gap of 30 ilvls or more between M+ers and pure raiders.

    Normally the vault loot is what really puts M+ ahead of heroic raids, but with uncapped valor you don't even need the vault. Just run dungeons if you like that, and be heroic raid geared in 10 days.

    It's really fun to be able to go ham on M+ and look at completing KSM this week or next week (next week for me), but it's causing a strain on our raid group. We're just at such different levels.
    You could try m+ exclusive gear like with pvp, but honestly i really dislike that sorta stuff.

    But perhaps more relevant: Why should m+ be adapted to raids?
    Honestly it seems better the other way around, and raiders already have an entitlement issue from here to Tokyo.

    It's the least seen content, unwieldy and is often tediously complex to the point of spawning addons just to deal with its issues.

    Just give players loot each kill, or rather: a chance for loot with each kill.

    It might help pre-empt EU inquiries into WoW's use of chance/rng in its rewards distribution as well, as often repeated rng rolls boil down to certainty over time.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Oh I read it, and I think the complaint is frail. And you started the thread. So are you mad about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    Uncapped valor feels great, and it's also really fun to run a lot of M+ now at the start of the season! I'm far from elite, but have run a bunch and currently sitting at 1771 rating, and nearly all my slots are 291 at this point. (spent 5k valor already, oops.)
    I dunno man, at least I'm not mad about your M+ geared toons having more ilvl than...my...mythic raiding character?

  3. #63
    m+ gearing has invalidated raiding gear since pretty much its inception. It has gotten better, but the amount of gear you get for the same amount of time in m+ is easily 5 or 6 times higher, and it doesn't have caps either, and there are more stat combos obtainable from m+ as well.

    m+ loot drops have been ridiculously overtuned since day 1 and it's probably not going to stop

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    Would note that your situation is a solved problem; the existing valor cap is technically season-wide, but it increased each week. First week, cap of 750 valor. Next week, 1500. And so on.

    So if you took a break and went away for a month you could come back and farm M+ until you had caught up to those who had farmed their 750 valor each week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will say that in earlier seasons heroic raiding was invalidated mostly by the vault gear, but this season, with infinite valor, it's happening even more quickly.
    Thats cool and I dont really see the issues with it. Its much better than what we had before were you more or less were "forced" to do X amount of dungeons each week. Now each player can do it at theyre own pace and havent really missed out on farming VP if they are gone for a while.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    m+ gearing has invalidated raiding gear since pretty much its inception. It has gotten better, but the amount of gear you get for the same amount of time in m+ is easily 5 or 6 times higher, and it doesn't have caps either, and there are more stat combos obtainable from m+ as well.

    m+ loot drops have been ridiculously overtuned since day 1 and it's probably not going to stop
    I don't think M+ invalidates mythic raid loot; mythic raiders get a steady drip of 304 items from bosskills, compared to the 288 from M+. They both get 304 from vault, and eventually mythic raiders get 311 from the endbosses. But heroic raids and below are mostly irrelevant for gearing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind having valor uncapped in future seasons. Soon I'll be done gearing my monk from valor, and then I can start on an alt.

    But raids need a similar tempo.

  6. #66
    So raiders are upset that they cant feel superior to other players at the heroic level? But instead want what 1 drop per run instead of the 2? Why cant raids have some actual competition for what people want to do in an end game gearing scenario? Why Min/Max the fun out of the game also? Why be so restrictive and push for not viable time requirements in the current gaming landscape? Raiding is just to time consuming and require to much setup and planning to be viable and looking at the logistics alone makes me wonder how can something so antiquated even be wanted.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-08-13 at 07:30 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    So raiders are upset that they cant feel superior to other players at the heroic level? But instead want what 1 drop per run instead of the 2? Why cant raids have some actual competition for what people want to do in an end game gearing scenario? Why Min/Max the fun out of the game also? Why be so restrictive and push for not viable time requirements in the current gaming landscape? Raiding is just to time consuming and require to much setup and planning to be viable and looking at the logistics alone makes me wonder how can something so antiquated even be wanted.
    *WoW raiding.

    The way FF14 and Lost ark do it is great.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    *WoW raiding.

    The way FF14 and Lost ark do it is great.
    Oh yea as a primarily WoW centric forum was the reason behind that and yes FF14 for sure does the gearing curve far better then WoW but if you take away the power curve to the game i kinda thing most people would quit playing since that is how they are trained to enjoy it.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Oh yea as a primarily WoW centric forum was the reason behind that and yes FF14 for sure does the gearing curve far better then WoW but if you take away the power curve to the game i kinda thing most people would quit playing since that is how they are trained to enjoy it.
    That too but mainly I mean the way you do interact with the raid.
    Jump in for the boss you choose, minimal/no trash, low preparation time (ingame), pull and gl&hf.

    WoW just feels antiquated in those regards, the "big place" and trash mobs might be more immersive for the first 2 weeks but it just creates annoyance after that when you progress and pull bosses dozens, if not hundreds of time.

  10. #70
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    I might be missing a step. Is the issue that running 20 +2's pays well, because you can upgrade whatever you get?

  11. #71
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean 15s are harder then most of heroic. It's the beer league there isn't a reason to nerf other content around it. It's designed to be smashed out in a night or two.
    Beer league is normal, not heroic.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Beer league is normal, not heroic.
    Debatable. Heroic is meant to be picked up and plugged. It's just the renamed old normal.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    I guess it’s hard for me to relate to your feelings because I come from money and I am educated so I don’t use games for validation or as a metric of my competence in life.
    Again, the only people who say things like this are absolutely full of it. So many excuses just to avoid putting any effort whatsoever into getting better at something.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Echeyakee View Post
    Maybe the question should be "Why are raids still not spammable?"
    Back in the day there was no raid lockout

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Again, the only people who say things like this are absolutely full of it. So many excuses just to avoid putting any effort whatsoever into getting better at something.
    I play with several people who have put lots of effort into things and have gotten good at it, it's just that it's their job and not wow. So we do casual raids in normal (one night a week, on top of my guild who should be raiding heroic, dammit), while they're very comfortable on their expensive rigs, taking a break from their real jobs which paid for it.

    Now I do like to get better at something, but judging somebody for not putting effort into wow is...silly is the word I should use, I guess, to be polite.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    I play with several people who have put lots of effort into things and have gotten good at it, it's just that it's their job and not wow. So we do casual raids in normal (one night a week, on top of my guild who should be raiding heroic, dammit), while they're very comfortable on their expensive rigs, taking a break from their real jobs which paid for it.

    Now I do like to get better at something, but judging somebody for not putting effort into wow is...silly is the word I should use, I guess, to be polite.
    But you should stop comparing yourself and your guild with the others in that case. There are many people with jobs, small kids etc. still with better progress. So that's never an excuse.

    The raid got nerfed so hard, that it might be the most aggressive in the history - this is your compensation. It's free for all right now - and you should see it like that.

  17. #77
    I'm hoping for this experiment to never be done again.
    As it pushes for everyone to burn themselves at the beginning of the season. Who are you going to take between two skilled and experienced players for a key the one with 290 ilvl or the one with 282 ?

    I don't want this situation to repeat itself as it kills opportunities for casuals to enjoy the game. And with that it also devalues raiding by a large margin.

    This was very foolish and didn't bring anything of value to the game except reward more mm+ which already was the best route for gearing. All the while praising for "loot to be loot" at the beginning of the expansion and reducing the amount of gear dropped by raid bosses. An heroic raider cannot increase the level of his raid rewards to mythic difficulty but a dungeon crawler can get gear higher than heroic through valor points and weekly chest... The dinar system has already failed as it doesn't serve a returning player and it will be quicker to run dungeons to get a weapon and increase it to a level that will serve you even when it costs 3-4k valor points to do so.

    This season was supposed to be experimental to give raiders better control and progression on gear acquisition and ends up ignoring all lf this with the valor cap removal. Whoever made this decision is an expert in shooting themselves in the foot...
    Last edited by Skildar; 2022-08-14 at 09:07 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm hoping for this experiment to never be done again.
    As it pushes for everyone to burn themselves at the beginning of the season. Who are you going to take between two skilled and experienced players for a key the one with 290 ilvl or the one with 282 ?

    I don't want this situation to repeat itself as it kills opportunities for casuals to enjoy the game. And with that it also devalues raiding by a large margin.

    This was very foolish and didn't bring anything of value to the game except reward more mm+ which already was the best route for gearing. All the while praising for "loot to be loot" at the beginning of the expansion and reducing the amount of gear dropped by raid bosses. An heroic raider cannot increase the level of his raid rewards to mythic difficulty but a dungeon crawler can get gear higher than heroic through valor points and weekly chest... The dinar system has already failed as it doesn't serve a returning player and it will be quicker to run dungeons to get a weapon and increase it to a level that will serve you even when it costs 3-4k valor points to do so.

    This season was supposed to be experimental to give raiders better control and progression on gear acquisition and ends up ignoring all lf this with the valor cap removal. Whoever made this decision is an expert in shooting themselves in the foot...
    Casuals should stay at lower keys. Skilled players will and should push. If you have time to play and improve - you do that.

    I don't understand the argument.

  19. #79
    for some (to me strange) reason some ppls here compare m+15 and upwards with heroic raiding. which is something i don’t get. when i pug run +16 keys, it takes me more time to finish 1 or 2 +16 keys in pug grps, than it takes time to clear HC raid in a pug grp. HC fated raid drops 291/297. +15 max item level with valor (that you have to earn first) is 298. i don’t see the problem tbh.

    imo keys above 15 (15-20) lay somewhere between HC raid and mythic raid. at least from a pug players point of view. and that seems exactly fine to me. doing 3-4 HC bosses and the first 2 mythic bosses or running 5-6 +15 dungeons seems around the same in pug grps to me. ofc it’s totally possible that guild m+ runs offer more item levels per minute than raiding.

    and ofc m+ is not capped. if you are in a guild with 50% raid-logers and 50% no-lifers that playing 24/7, raiding AND spam m+, so yes, the no-lifers have 10 item levels more than the raid-logers. but what’s wrong with that? it was always the case that the ppl invested the most time in wow had the best gear.

    i do not really see the problem tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    This is a problem for mythic raiders vs top M+ers, but I'd argue that KSM is more akin to Curve than Cutting Edge. Which means that if you're a heroic raider, you're never catching up to your guildmates who are running M+. (This is IMO a problem with vault loot, which isn't quite the same as valor gear. With capped valor but no Vault, both heroic raiders and KSMers eventually get a few pieces of 298 gear.)
    that’s maybe where i differ with you. from a pure pug players view (i solely pug since 2+ years), it takes me a lot more effort to get all dungeons m+15 for KSM than it takes me to just clear HC. in guilds it may be totally another thing. no clue. but as pug player i would not compare KSM to Ahead of Curve tbh.

    some weird proof of that: even when you boost and buy +15 runs for KSM, you pay much more than buying just a single Curve run. yeah, it’s a stupid argument, but even there the KSM needs more effort (gold wise) than curve.

    the only thing in pugs that differs is the TYPE of wasting time. the reason why i like m+ more is: i have something to do and play the game for 20mins, until some noob leaves the dungeon and i have to repeat dungeon and also have a depleted key. in HC raids i sit there and can wait for 10-15 mins to fill up grp after each boss. in both play fields i waste time. a lot. but in m+ i can play my char while wasting time. in HC raids i just sit there afk desktop.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-08-14 at 10:04 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Casuals should stay at lower keys. Skilled players will and should push. If you have time to play and improve - you do that.

    I don't understand the argument.
    casuals doesn't mean "not skilled" thanks for not shutting people who have skill and experience but not the time to do as much as some others during a week. I only time for one night of raiding and a couple of nights of other activities. Same goes for a lot of my guildies and everyone in there is skilled enough to do 15s in time. But with valor cap removal, they can only count on pushing their own keys as way too many people that have more free time tag to these. Having a lot of time doesn't mean having great skills though

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