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  1. #81
    This is kind of an issue that appeared when m+ loot has been made competitive with raid loot. On one hand, doing m+ in addition to raiding helps you gear up a lot. On the other hand, you can't really force people to do content they don't want to or have no time to do. So you end up with people trying to maximize their character's output kind of boosting those that are not.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    casuals doesn't mean "not skilled" thanks for not shutting people who have skill and experience but not the time to do as much as some others during a week. I only time for one night of raiding and a couple of nights of other activities. Same goes for a lot of my guildies and everyone in there is skilled enough to do 15s in time. But with valor cap removal, they can only count on pushing their own keys as way too many people that have more free time tag to these. Having a lot of time doesn't mean having great skills though
    I still don't understand the argument.

    There is always a person, with kids, with high responsibility job, functions socially - with higher skill and better time management - and still fall under "casual" category. Agreed.

    What you are talking about is personal priorities - and you are saying that Blizzard should make it more convenient for you. That is not sustainable for the game.

  3. #83
    Uncapped Valor is a savior for M+ no need to wait a week to upgrade and item so i can have the proper itm lvl to not get declined + no rating required = bis for alts.



    if you cant clear normal raids with that gear git gud is a skill issue not a valor rate issue sorry

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm hoping for this experiment to never be done again.
    As it pushes for everyone to burn themselves at the beginning of the season. Who are you going to take between two skilled and experienced players for a key the one with 290 ilvl or the one with 282 ?

    I don't want this situation to repeat itself as it kills opportunities for casuals to enjoy the game. And with that it also devalues raiding by a large margin.

    This was very foolish and didn't bring anything of value to the game except reward more mm+ which already was the best route for gearing. All the while praising for "loot to be loot" at the beginning of the expansion and reducing the amount of gear dropped by raid bosses. An heroic raider cannot increase the level of his raid rewards to mythic difficulty but a dungeon crawler can get gear higher than heroic through valor points and weekly chest... The dinar system has already failed as it doesn't serve a returning player and it will be quicker to run dungeons to get a weapon and increase it to a level that will serve you even when it costs 3-4k valor points to do so.

    This season was supposed to be experimental to give raiders better control and progression on gear acquisition and ends up ignoring all lf this with the valor cap removal. Whoever made this decision is an expert in shooting themselves in the foot...


    no sense argument because even with valor cap you cant see if somebody is good or a boosted animal, if you are unlucky with pugs make your own m+ group like everybody alse at 2600 rn


    if you cant find a group maybe is you the boosted guy

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    The question has always been and likely still in as illustrated here why have 4 raid modes? Have LFR, Normal then Mythic. Skew some of heroic into normal. It's just like Heroic dungeons. Why do we have 3 when people run either normal or mythic/mythic+. The only reason people touch Heroic there is to gain some gear and completely move out it same as heroic raiding.
    What are you on about?.. Difficulty has nothing to do with weekly lockout.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I still don't understand the argument.

    There is always a person, with kids, with high responsibility job, functions socially - with higher skill and better time management - and still fall under "casual" category. Agreed.

    What you are talking about is personal priorities - and you are saying that Blizzard should make it more convenient for you. That is not sustainable for the game.
    The whole purpose of valor cap was to protect the enjoyment of the game for people like me and my guildies that have time to do heroic raiding, skills for mm+15 and higher but not the madness to burn yourself the first month of each patch.
    So of course I'm here defending the valor cap. And as I've said it devalues raiding gear greatly.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This is a bit of an inverse of normal seasons. Because of the VP cap early on, M+ players scale fairly linearly with their raiding brethren but towards the end of a season raiders typically outscale M+ players because they have access to higher item level gear which drops from the later bosses. Now we're seeing the M+ players scale faster than raiders because of uncapped VP but in due time I'm sure raiders will once again outscale M+ players. (Though, arguably, the season will be almost over at that point.)

    I don't know if it's a good or bad thing. I'd imagine if you're a raid logger inspecting a fully decked out M+er it can feel kind of demotivating but I think the end goal remains about the same.
    But as someone who puts in the time to farm M+ to get full 298, being better geared than a dude who plays 3 nights a week raidlogging, shouldnt be unrealistisc, the time spent is massively different.

    The m+ guy is capped at 298, the raider is capped at 310, with a few game breaking trinkets and weapons.

    Being a "bad" raider versus being a good m+'er shouldnt necesarily go to the raiders advantage. We're way past "raid or die" mentality of the past, thank god.

  7. #87
    No, it's not.

    Valor cap is the most annoying thing. The raid has higher ilvl gear and doesn't require repetition in the same difficulty. Raid now has a special currency to upgrade gear as well. Leave valor be.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-08-14 at 12:08 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    But as someone who puts in the time to farm M+ to get full 298, being better geared than a dude who plays 3 nights a week raidlogging, shouldnt be unrealistisc, the time spent is massively different.

    The m+ guy is capped at 298, the raider is capped at 310, with a few game breaking trinkets and weapons.

    Being a "bad" raider versus being a good m+'er shouldnt necesarily go to the raiders advantage. We're way past "raid or die" mentality of the past, thank god.
    I don't know if I'd quality the raider as bad or the M+er as good in that example. One simply had more time than the other.

  9. #89
    The idea that the more dedicated people in a guild can do something on non-raid days to get more powerful to then help carry their raidlogging friends through heroic doesn't strike me as inherently bad. If they become resentful about it, then they are probably in the wrong guild to begin with! The universal story of this game is that organized groups only work if everyone is on the same page for goals and whatnot.

    My biggest personal issue with the valor caps is the feel-bad nature of "wasting" currency by upgrading something only to get it in your box right after. With it uncapped, this no longer matters and it feels great! I wish they'd come up with some kind of a solution for this. Having people "sit" on currency seems like bad design.

  10. #90
    People keep comparing raid loggers to m+ers who run tons of key. That's not quite the point I was making.

    Sure, I can appreciate the argument that you should be able to put as much time into gearing as you wish (although I would then wish for max gear to be obtainable relatively quickly, after that you gear alts or push keys with the gear you have).

    But the main issue isn't really raid loggers, it's a raider that would love to raid 3 guild nights + pug raids when the guild isn't scheduled and the m+ers are running keys.

    They can't do that. Two of the three main gearing pillars are uncapped this season, while the third isn't. So if you, like my aforementioned guildmates*, want to play a ton to gear up, your choice is pvp or m+. Even if you've chosen raid as your preferred content, that pillar is capped and the others aren't.


    *not the casual slackers in my friday raid

    - - - Updated - - -

    When all raids are Fated, that would actually be close to uncapping raids, with 31 bosses to kill each week. Maybe they should have launched with that.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    Two of the three main gearing pillars are uncapped this season, while the third isn't.
    But in return, it gives the highest maximum ilvl gear.

    Isn't that how it's always been?

    If anything the argument could be about where heroic raiding's role lies currently, as it's generally harder than M+ for equivalent ilvl, takes more organizing to set up, and a bigger time time commitment. At least mythic raiding gives you something unique (311 gear), whereas you can fully substitute for heroic raiding by just doing M+.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But in return, it gives the highest maximum ilvl gear.

    Isn't that how it's always been?

    If anything the argument could be about where heroic raiding's role lies currently, as it's generally harder than M+ for equivalent ilvl, takes more organizing to set up, and a bigger time time commitment. At least mythic raiding gives you something unique (311 gear), whereas you can fully substitute for heroic raiding by just doing M+.
    There's still quite a few rather potent raiding-exclusive trinkets and weapons (esp this week with SoD). If you're looking at it from a solely item level focus, yes. But there's a lot of unseen power in raid gear which makes Heroic a compelling endeavor even for M+ers. The real redundant difficulty (imo) is Normal which neither appeases the LFR raiders nor does it prove a training grounds for Heroic raiders. It's purpose, as of lately, is a place Mythic raiders bang out in record time to either funnel Tier or trinkets or weapons.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    that’s maybe where i differ with you. from a pure pug players view (i solely pug since 2+ years), it takes me a lot more effort to get all dungeons m+15 for KSM than it takes me to just clear HC. in guilds it may be totally another thing. no clue. but as pug player i would not compare KSM to Ahead of Curve tbh.
    If you know what to do, M+ takes more *time* just to complete it all, especially now that you need to run 16 dungeons, over at least two different weeks.

    But what I have in mind when I'm thinking that Curve = KSM, is more the level of play. I started playing seriously again in SL, and I've gotten KSM in s2 and s3, joined a heroic guild in sepulcher and downed the Jailer. Both of those seems to be about my level? Fully geared I've pushed up to around 18 with one or two 19s, but I kinda doubt I'm mythic raider material. I've got a CE friend who joined us for a raid to help on Rygelon, and the difference was marked, even beyond ilvl.

  14. #94
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Debatable. Heroic is meant to be picked up and plugged. It's just the renamed old normal.
    I'm saying you're using the term incorrectly. When Blizzard brought back normal (It was called flex at the time), it was for people who called it "beer league" raiding. Because former normal didn't exist, they had essentially "axed" a difficulty between LFR and what is now called heroic. The difficulty jump was too high at the time.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    That is the big question, together with "why doesn't valor drop in raids and raid items are upgradable, too".
    Probably the same reason they removed realm first for levelling, professions, and such. Which was they didn't want the bad press of people literally playing until they dropped dead at an internet cafe. Bad press, that. Besides, we know better than anyone that there is no grey area between being able to and being forced to to some people. If people CAN run raids infinitely, there will be people who will feel they have to.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  16. #96
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    The last season of an expansion should always be a bit different imo. Make it more fun, please.

    Corruption in S4 BFA was fun. Not having time gating on gear is fun. Etc.
    Hi

  17. #97
    If Heroic raids weren't capped once per week, would your peeps run the raid more than once per week?

    I doubt it.
    You are basically asking to be gated because of a mismatch of interest in your raid group.
    Instead of valor being to powerful, maybe Heroic raids just shouldn't be capped at once per week anymore (during this season)


    That being said, I raided with people not doing M+ this expansion as well.
    By the time we went to the later heroic bosses, I was already outgearing everything in there and only trinkets or maybe a weapon would interest me in terms of loot.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-08-15 at 01:31 PM.

  18. #98
    Raids are just not worth the time anymore (unless top guild raiding is your thing). There's a reason the mode has been in a steady decline for 2 expansions in a row now to being basically dead player # wise. You do a heroic its not unusual to come out with 0 or maybe 1 item. More if your insanely lucky. Did Sanctum this week, unsurprisingly got 0 items. Last week got 1 belt. This season's showing more than ever how much raiding has been a waste these past few expansions. Its gonna end up being a completely dead mode without some major changes.

  19. #99
    This season is almost a prepatch for dragonflight, it's not about progression when most people already did the content when it was current and it's lower tuned now especially in heroic.

    Gear isn't relevant because there is no progression to be done, this is just another shameless cashgrab from Blizzard who sold Shadowlands at a full game price on top of the monthly sub to have 1/4 of the game being a reused assets filler.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    This season is almost a prepatch for dragonflight, it's not about progression when most people already did the content when it was current and it's lower tuned now especially in heroic.

    Gear isn't relevant because there is no progression to be done, this is just another shameless cashgrab from Blizzard who sold Shadowlands at a full game price on top of the monthly sub to have 1/4 of the game being a reused assets filler.
    What, lol.
    How the heck is it a cashgrab. Why don't you just... and this sounds crazy I know... not sub until DF?
    Buying into Shadowlands has nothing to do with anything but 9.0.

    People these days...

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