Importance of Wrath raid buffs

[garicasha]

Edit: I forgot how incredibly powerful they all are, see post 11.

At what point would you rather cancel a raid than go without?

IIRC the only one you really needed was Replenishment, but then again I was only raiding normal.

There’s a lot, I’ll try and list em when I get home, but it was hard to get them all.

Edit: This is wrong, they're super important. OP: But each one is worth like 1-2% to overall raid DPS right?

[Kralljin]

No, more than that.

Take Curse of Elements / Ebon Plague / Earth and Moon, which is 13% magic damage increase.
That debuff is like 7-8% raid damage depending on your comp because basically every caster does flat 13% more damage and then you even have some melee specs like Enhance, Ret and Frost DK that also do some magical damage.

Nevermind that there's a raid buff that literally is a flat 3% damage increase.

Basically, when it comes to raid buffs:
In a 25man setting, you should have every buff covered, it's not hard, there are just only some that only a few select provide (3% spell hit, 3% overall dmg, 3% haste for example) but coming out of TBC, it should absolutely not a huge deal to cover them, you have more than enough slots to cover them all.

[Tojara]

If you're doing 25 mans it's pretty hard to miss certain buffs in WoTLK. The largest difference between TBC and WoTLK is they made nearly everything raid wide and doubled or tripled up some of the raid buffs so it's easier to get everything.

If you're doing 10 man content it's kind of hard to get absolutely everything, but not impossible. Also doesn't mean as much though depending on how you build you composition anyway.

[garicasha]

And what’s the first fight that’s gonna be hard enough to matter? Sarth+3, I’m sure Firefighter, Trial heroic and then ICC end-boss hardmodes.

[Kralljin]

And what’s the first fight that’s gonna be hard enough to matter? Sarth+3, I’m sure Firefighter, Trial heroic and then ICC end-boss hardmodes.

Define "matter".

If your raid is made up by not so great players, that's going to matter pretty early into Ulduar hardmodes, doing up to 7% less damage means a lot on encounters like XT Hardmode or Iron Council Hardmode, especially if your raiders don't pull top notch numbers or play weaker specs.
This entire min/max discussion has the rather ironic touch to it that the players who are good enough to pass on these buff will never raid without them, whereas the less skilled players should really use every advantage they can get are passing on some of them.

Building a raidcomp in Wotlk isn't even compareable with building one in TBC, unless you have a large group of people that have a huge overlap in their spec choices, you should easily cover every (de)buff.

[garicasha]

https://wrathraidcomp.com/

Ok so it's not quite as bad as I thought, although I think there's 1-2 buffs that were normally tough to get.

So with a
--Blood DK and Prot pally tank
--Resto druid, Disc priest, Resto sham, and Holy pally
--Fire mage, Affliction lock, Boomkin, Shadow priest, Combat rogue

That gives all but 6 of the buffs right there, with 14 spots remaining to pick up the other ones. One configuration that gets the rest are Beast Mastery, Fury war, Cat, and Elemental Shaman. Still with 10 spots left over.

I also don't remember Rapture and Revitalize giving resources to the player, guessing that's probably really important.

[Natureseer]

raid buffs are quite important, but like most people have already said its easy to cover them all on 25 man. 10 mans will typically be missing several buffs, but the tuning is very forgiving on that difficulty.

id also point out that wotlk has the greatest disparity in player power between "solo play" and "fully raid buffed" than any other expansion.

[Bigbazz]

Just to put into perspective here, Windfury Totem is 20% haste... 20%. Buffs make a big difference.

[varren]

10 mans will still be annoying to get the buffs you want. Only 4 specs bring melee haste (all shaman and frost dks, with shaman totem competing for spell haste) and 3 specs bring 10% AP (Blood DK, Enhance Shaman, MM Hunter), both incredibly important for melee DPS. Decent chance you will be missing one or both of those buffs. I wish they would put in the Hunter pet changes that allowed them to bring almost any buff/debuff in the game like in latter expansions.

[Kikazz]

At what point would you rather cancel a raid than go without?

IIRC the only one you really needed was Replenishment, but then again I was only raiding normal.

There’s a lot, I’ll try and list em when I get home, but it was hard to get them all.

But each one is worth like 1-2% to overall raid DPS right?

https://wrathraidcomp.com/

use this will show you what class/spec gives what,

and you can target what you want.

- - - Updated - - -

https://wrathraidcomp.com/

Ok so it's not quite as bad as I thought, although I think there's 1-2 buffs that were normally tough to get.

So with a
--Blood DK and Prot pally tank
--Resto druid, Disc priest, Resto sham, and Holy pally
--Fire mage, Affliction lock, Boomkin, Shadow priest, Combat rogue

That gives all but 6 of the buffs right there, with 14 spots remaining to pick up the other ones. One configuration that gets the rest are Beast Mastery, Fury war, Cat, and Elemental Shaman. Still with 10 spots left over.

I also don't remember Rapture and Revitalize giving resources to the player, guessing that's probably really important.

dont forget some of those buffs are empowered in raid comp, and need certain specs to get the empworeed version like i know 10% melee haste, can go to 20% throguh an enhance shaman, and the enhance can also go unleashed fury and there tier buffs it, to give more Melee ap.

[garicasha]

Ok so help me put them in roughly order of importance...

Overall:
Replenishment (Shadow, Ret, Survival, Destro, Frost mage)
Hero/Bloodlust (Shaman)
Kings (Pally)
3% Damage (Ret, Beast Mastery, Moonkin)
3% Haste (Moonkin, Ret)
3% Crit (Elemental, Ret, Assassination)
3% Hit (Moonkin, Hunter)
Fort/Gift/Intellect/Spirit/Health (Priest/Druid/Mage/Priest & Warlock/Warrior & Warlock)

Melee:
20% haste (frost DK, shaman)

550 Attack Power (Warrior, Pally)

10% Attack Power (Blood DK, Enhancement, Marksmanship)

20% Armor (Warrior, Rogue, Beast Mastery)

Does Greater Blessing of Sanctuary give 10% strength and stamina? says it does with 3% reduction but I don't remember that

5% Armor (Warlock, Druid, Hunter?)

5% Crit (Feral, Fury)

30% Bleed Damage (Feral, Arms, Beast Mastery)

4% Physical Damage (Arms, Combat)


Caster:
13% Spell Damage (Moonkin, Unholy, Warlock)
5% Spell Crit Debuff (Fire or Frost mage, Demonology or Affliction warlock)
5% Spell Crit Buff (Moonkin, Elemental)
5% Spell Haste (Shaman)

3% Spell Hit (Moonkin, Shadow)

So the takeaways are that two shamans and a Moonkin are gonna cover most the really important buffs, and then there are a bunch of melee ones still after that but there's a lot more flexibility there. An enhance, fury, and cat are enough to cover nearly all the buffs.

So if building a raid roster with buffs in mind:
--Any Shaman
--Moonkin, they bring a lot of the important buffs and a lot of utility
--Pally (Kings)
--Second Shaman of a different spec, with one being enhancement preferably.
--If no enhance, have to have a Frost DK.
--Second pally of a different spec
--Some combination of warrior/rogue/cat to pick up the missing debuffs

Also what's the best way to do the Sunder Armor Debuff? I remember rogues complaining that expose armor killed their DPS.

[anveena]

Sunder is the best way to maintain the large armor reduction debuff.

[garicasha]

Is 20% melee haste just on auto-attack or...well I kinda forget how haste worked in Wrath.

[Avatar Killer]

Is 20% melee haste just on auto-attack or...well I kinda forget how haste worked in Wrath.

Well melee haste does only apply to auto attacks and not GCB reduction but…
In general all of the buffs listed in this post such as damage increase and haste also don’t stack additively they stack multiplicatively. So say desolation sell buff stacked with all the other buffs available could end up actually being 12% at some point. The more boofs the merrier!

Icy talons stacked with windfury with 15% personal haste ends up being 65.5% melee haste instead of only 55.

[Ave07]

My raid is just stacking locks again for our GDKP raids so some buffs are not as important for us.

[garicasha]

Is there even a single fight that’ll be a problem? Valithria maybe? Faction Champions for interrupts?

[Azadina]

Is there even a single fight that’ll be a problem? Valithria maybe? Faction Champions for interrupts?

Valithria? Just have couple healers who know how to play, and assign the rest on raid heal duty.