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  1. #1

    Thumbs up 5man instances are overused; people can't fill up their 20mans; the solution is clear

    Introduce 10man hard mode again but: in its own unique instances; that way the numbers would be balanced a lot; not everyone will be shoved into the tiny 5man gametype and the only alternative wouldn't be the hard-to-find-people-for 20man.

    You can't flex it or re-use 20man or 5man instances for it, because we'd have the same problem we had when 10man and 25man were coexisting, constant flamewars in this forum too about what difficulty is the hardest or the coolest.

    As a bonus advantage, the strict metas of a handful of combinations of classes/specs of 5man would open up to more complex combinations of 10man, which doesn't solve it entirely (even 20man has metas) but it's an alleviation.

  2. #2
    I give a big fck about balance, just make mythic flex.

    You can lock achivements behind 20 man, or lower itemlevel by 2-3 points if u are more or less then 20, so everybody is happy

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    I give a big fck about balance, just make mythic flex.
    It's pointless to want a world race to be first, where people would not even know who is first and they would be constantly infighting online who had the coolest or hardest kill which was exactly what was happening in this very forum too when 10man and 25man coexisted in shared instances.

    Flex has the same issue because it's inevitably impossible for devs to balance it with random numbers of characters.

    Why would people go through the pain of a hard mode difficulty without even knowing who was the best?

  4. #4
    Even when MoP was a shitshow with 10 and 25 man.. It was one of the best raiding we had. We didn't really care about the imbalance, that Garrosh had to be 1 healed on 10 man to have enough damage. That sometimes 10 man was easier than 25. If they care about the race, then make it so if you have 10 and 20 man Mythic modes, if you kill a boss in one you are locked to that mode.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's pointless to want a world race to be first, where people would not even know who is first and they would be constantly infighting online who had the coolest or hardest kill which was exactly what was happening in this very forum too when 10man and 25man coexisted in shared instances.

    Flex has the same issue because it's inevitably impossible for devs to balance it with random numbers of characters.

    Why would people go through the pain of a hard mode difficulty without even knowing who was the best?
    Barely anyone of wows big community care much about world first race. You think they would care, but just cause you live in this bubble. I mean sure im looking into wowprogress aswell, but overall i really dont care. I dont watch streams I dont care about the people/Strategys etc.

    And WoW holds back its potential, because "balance". You know, there are way more people out there who dont care about something like this, or if their class X% less damage bla bla. People just wanna play. They wanna have Fun. And if they cant have fun cause "Oh no, we are missing 3 people today, we cant go mythic!" or "You cant play this fun cov/talent, you need to switch to this unfun talent/cov so you doing more damage" its worse then who the fck getting world first or if the ranking is messed up, cause its not flex more.

    With some Group sizes some bossed should be easiert, some harder. Thats it. Some People abuse this for world first?! Ok, but who the hell cares?! how does something like this affect ME? or my raidgroup/guild?! It doesnt. It doesnt affect 98% of the playerbase.

    Ehm, they going thought the hardmode because they want to? because its fun for them?
    Last edited by saixilein; 2022-08-14 at 08:33 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Why would people go through the pain of a hard mode difficulty without even knowing who was the best?
    Because it is a video game, which at least personally I play because I find it fun. Hard difficulty doesn't mean it is "pain to go through". You know, some people actually like challenging themselves..

    Also, how can some content be "overused" in a game where players decide what they want to do? 5 mans are just as used as the playerbase wants. The average player just prefers 5mans over raiding.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    I give a big fck about balance, just make mythic flex.

    You can lock achivements behind 20 man, or lower itemlevel by 2-3 points if u are more or less then 20, so everybody is happy
    Narrator: Everybody wasn't happy.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Introduce 10man hard mode again but: in its own unique instances; that way the numbers would be balanced a lot; not everyone will be shoved into the tiny 5man gametype and the only alternative wouldn't be the hard-to-find-people-for 20man.

    You can't flex it or re-use 20man or 5man instances for it, because we'd have the same problem we had when 10man and 25man were coexisting, constant flamewars in this forum too about what difficulty is the hardest or the coolest.

    As a bonus advantage, the strict metas of a handful of combinations of classes/specs of 5man would open up to more complex combinations of 10man, which doesn't solve it entirely (even 20man has metas) but it's an alleviation.
    This whole statement is based on fiction. In classic it was not hard to fill raids with 40 people. So the thing that makes it hard to fill up a mythic raid team is clearly not the fact that it requires 20 people. Being hard to fill is a symptom and not the cause.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by blahdiblah View Post
    This whole statement is based on fiction. In classic it was not hard to fill raids with 40 people. So the thing that makes it hard to fill up a mythic raid team is clearly not the fact that it requires 20 people. Being hard to fill is a symptom and not the cause.
    Well yeah, retail could have faceroll raids as well, but I don't think that'd be fun. Especially when we've been conditioned to pull a boss 100+ times to kill it on mythic. One thing I'd like to get back is raid logging though. Was a lot easier to keep a roster going with not having to grind 20+ hours a week to be relevant for 15 hours of raiding.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    we've been conditioned to pull a boss 100+ times to kill it on mythic
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Hard difficulty doesn't mean it is "pain to go through".
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    who the hell cares?!
    People often have the delusion life should only be easy and fun; life must never be hard because it is a "sin"; we must always strive to make it easier and more fun and more flawless without any difficulty because that's always superior supposedly.
    That's a blatant case of cognitive dissonance in this case (i.e. a contradiction of sentiment); you want to go through the hardest raiding in the game which is explicitly hard and painful; at the same time you proclaim you want it painless.
    Since you're not a pathological masochist: you do it because you want it hard, because humans are hardwired to struggle, and in that frame of thought they care about rankings that are fair because they rank their painful work.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    People often have the delusion life should only be easy and fun; life must never be hard because it is a "sin"; we must always strive to make it easier and more fun and more flawless without any difficulty because that's always superior supposedly.
    That's a blatant case of cognitive dissonance in this case (i.e. a contradiction of sentiment); you want to go through the hardest raiding in the game which is explicitly hard and painful; at the same time you proclaim you want it painless.
    Since you're not a pathological masochist: you do it because you want it hard, because humans are hardwired to struggle, and in that frame of thought they care about rankings that are fair because they rank their painful work.
    The irony is palpable though. Since clearly getting 20 people is difficult for you and you want it made easier.

  12. #12
    Honestly 10 man raiding is the only thing that would bring me back to WoW longterm. I have enough capable friends to setup a 10 man raiding group and we could just raid for fun. I do not have 19 other skilled friends and being forced to recruit is more effort than it's worth.

    But it's never going to happen. Blizzard are hardset on the fact Mythic needs to be 20man, a decision that I feel more than any other is what is leading to the ever reducing amount of subs.

  13. #13
    So rather than trying to incentivize 20M content your solution is to ensure everybody is equally miserable with 10M content?

    Sorry friend, take off the Cata/MoP nostalgia goggles. 10M Heroic raiding is not coming back and it is not the savior of raiding you're implying here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Honestly 10 man raiding is the only thing that would bring me back to WoW longterm. I have enough capable friends to setup a 10 man raiding group and we could just raid for fun. I do not have 19 other skilled friends and being forced to recruit is more effort than it's worth.

    But it's never going to happen. Blizzard are hardset on the fact Mythic needs to be 20man, a decision that I feel more than any other is what is leading to the ever reducing amount of subs.
    Mythic needs a 20M because this is a game with 38 individual specs and classes and you're lying to yourself if you don't think that poses a risk to its overall reception. Blizzard is moving away from homogenization, not towards it. 10M raiding is fundamentally at odds with WoW's current design direction.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Honestly 10 man raiding is the only thing that would bring me back to WoW longterm. I have enough capable friends to setup a 10 man raiding group and we could just raid for fun. I do not have 19 other skilled friends and being forced to recruit is more effort than it's worth.

    But it's never going to happen. Blizzard are hardset on the fact Mythic needs to be 20man, a decision that I feel more than any other is what is leading to the ever reducing amount of subs.
    20 man means that you can better balance the encounters around having multiple classes. so for example my first raiding guild back in MoP the team consisted of a pally tank, druid tank, priest & shaman healer, 2 hunters, a mage, a warrior and a rogue (I think) - no monk, no warlock, no death knight. so you instantly lose a lot of utility with those classes, then you throw in demon hunter and evoker and 10 is just too little a number for the top tier difficulty of content. also to be fair there were plenty of 25 man raiding guilds who cut a few players; then the players from 2 25 man guilds join a 10 man guild and you're gucci

  15. #15
    This thread in a nutshell "I want x raid size because that's how many friends I have, therefore that is best and what we have sucks".

    The reality is that difficulty is the main problem. Wiping hundreds of times and taking months and months to progress a raid (with like less than 0.1% of the total players actually fully clearing it) is not appealing regardless of raid size.

  16. #16
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    Yeah nothing wrong with bringing back 10 man as long as it's clearly understood that 10 man is an easier version of Mythic for people who prefer that.

    That means clearly giving it slightly lower ilvl and designing it as a more casual alternative to 20 man Mythic raiding.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Honestly 10 man raiding is the only thing that would bring me back to WoW longterm. I have enough capable friends to setup a 10 man raiding group and we could just raid for fun. I do not have 19 other skilled friends and being forced to recruit is more effort than it's worth.

    But it's never going to happen. Blizzard are hardset on the fact Mythic needs to be 20man, a decision that I feel more than any other is what is leading to the ever reducing amount of subs.
    Well good news,10 man raiding is still a thing!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    This thread in a nutshell "I want x raid size because that's how many friends I have, therefore that is best and what we have sucks".

    The reality is that difficulty is the main problem. Wiping hundreds of times and taking months and months to progress a raid (with like less than 0.1% of the total players actually fully clearing it) is not appealing regardless of raid size.
    stick to lfr,the game has 4 difficulties,you not being good enough to do all 4 isnt a point against the game,this is why wow became shit,they started to cater to badies,and yeah i get it,its smarter to try to cater to your largest playerbase,but fromsoft proves that the desire for challenging gameplay isnt dead

    personaly i think lfr and normal should go away,you have youtube videos if you wanna see the raid,and if raiding is to hard,theres always 5 mans for you
    Last edited by deenman; 2022-08-14 at 10:51 PM.

  18. #18
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    Imo M+ would've been proper + if it scaled with more players too. It could've been some cool 10man content and bridged the gap between 5man dungeons and big raid instances like the old 10man raids used to do.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    Imo M+ would've been proper + if it scaled with more players too. It could've been some cool 10man content and bridged the gap between 5man dungeons and big raid instances like the old 10man raids used to do.
    Probably wouldn't work. Same problem that's killed 10/25-man raiding: you just can't feasibly balance high-end content for different sizes. Things like available space, number of people affected by stuff, etc. create too many variables that screw with difficulty.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    This thread in a nutshell "I want x raid size because that's how many friends I have, therefore that is best and what we have sucks".

    The reality is that difficulty is the main problem. Wiping hundreds of times and taking months and months to progress a raid (with like less than 0.1% of the total players actually fully clearing it) is not appealing regardless of raid size.
    No, it really isn't the issue of difficulty. Getting 19 people to line up their schedules is more than twice as hard as getting 9 people to line up their schedules, and then you have to take into account more people means more personalities and more potential for interpersonal conflict.

    My issues with 20man, and 25man raiding, have always been the amount of people. I don't enjoy the social environment in 20/25man raiding. It is too crowded for me to enjoy it, instead it just exhausts me socially. 5man isn't a decent compromise for me because I hate that content, 10man is the only mode that worked for me. The content was difficult enough (some fights were harder on 25man, and vice versa), and the social environment was cozy enough for me to actually interact with and get to know my raid members.

    Also: Fuck the world first race and the pointless debates over which was more difficult. The world first race is only relevant for the few hundred people who seriously are participating in it. Anyone up in arms over it is just as annoying as sports fans who bitch about their sports team losing, and just as pointless to pay heed to. The people actually running the race are such a minority of the playerbase that they're not worth listening to either when it comes to claims of which mode was the "real" mode.
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