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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    Solution is very easy. Fuck raids. People are no longer enjoying 4,5,6 hour long raid sessions. Its not 2000's anymore. Deal with it. Raiding is dead. Dont try to revive it. It has to evolve or perish.
    If you remove raids wow dies.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    If you remove raids wow dies.
    you are like blizzard. overestimate raiding. its been mythical in vanilla, pretty cool in bc and the best raiding was present in wrath. Since then, its downhill ride. And sub count shows that. and its not that the quality of encounters is lower. Its just a change in what players want in mmos. and its not hard raids. nobody gives a fuck about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    If you remove raids wow dies.
    i dont raid since wrath and i play like crazy still. if you remove raids maybe 15 percent will be gone but if they dedicate same resources to more 5man content, possible 10 man content, more transmog and fluff they would gain crazy amouts of people..

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    you are like blizzard. overestimate raiding. its been mythical in vanilla, pretty cool in bc and the best raiding was present in wrath. Since then, its downhill ride. And sub count shows that. and its not that the quality of encounters is lower. Its just a change in what players want in mmos. and its not hard raids. nobody gives a fuck about it.

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    i dont raid since wrath and i play like crazy still. if you remove raids maybe 15 percent will be gone but if they dedicate same resources to more 5man content, possible 10 man content, more transmog and fluff they would gain crazy amouts of people..
    You do realize raiding is the one thing which consistently gets WoW hundreds and thousands of hours of free exposure every 6-8 months on twitch, right? You're actually out of your fucking mind if you think Blizzard would ever throw that away because a few buttmad forum posters think "raiding is dead."

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    5man is practically a "small raid". Why does that exist? You talk in absolutes without justification.
    Redefining the concept of 5-man dungeons as raids does not make your argument any more appealing. We had two expansions of dual raid sizes with gear parity and it was fucking miserable. There's a reason we've had this raid paradigm for going-on five expansions now: It works. They're not bringing dual raid sizes back.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-09-05 at 03:43 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I guess mythic plus and pvp don't exist anymore?
    I was referring to the RWF. Neither M+ nor PvP are getting 100k+ views on twitch for 6-8 hours at a time for weeks on end.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Because 100k is so much better than 60-70k? 30k people is a drop of a drop in the bucket for the types of numbers Blizzard is looking for. Stop acting like wow is only alive and kicking because raiding has it on its back.

    Also last Race to world first averaged around 80k viewers, not "100k+ views on twitch for 6-8 hours at a time for weeks on end"

    https://streamscharts.com/news/wow-r...her-first-ones


    Peak =/= Average
    I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the 100% free exposure for the game that the RWF gives easily subsidizes whatever imaginary development cost raiding has, regardless of what buttmad forum posters who think "raiding is dead" may insist.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    And what does "free exposure" do for them exactly? If you want to combat that argument that raiding is dead, maybe look at engagement in raiding? The numbers aren't exactly hard to find.

    Viewership on Twitch has nothing to do with how many people choose to raid or not...
    It has everything to do with how people find and gauge the relevance of a video game (and whether they'll play it)... which is all that matters when it comes to justifying development costs. As long as the RWF remains a way for Blizzard to print free money for themselves they'll keep making raids. End of.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I think you put way too much stock into Twitch...
    I think you put too little stock in the power of free advertisement...

  8. #108
    Raiding is dying due to lack of flexibility. Flex raids aint flexible. Good luck doing say jailer hc on 10 man. They need to add Mythic flex and they need to really balance flex raid all the way down to 10 man. 10 man shouldn't be impossible while going with 30 players is faceroll. Thats bs

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    you are like blizzard. overestimate raiding. its been mythical in vanilla, pretty cool in bc and the best raiding was present in wrath. Since then, its downhill ride. And sub count shows that. and its not that the quality of encounters is lower. Its just a change in what players want in mmos. and its not hard raids. nobody gives a fuck about it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    i dont raid since wrath and i play like crazy still. if you remove raids maybe 15 percent will be gone but if they dedicate same resources to more 5man content, possible 10 man content, more transmog and fluff they would gain crazy amouts of people..
    You underestimate it. WoW pvp has never been big - ever. Not even once. M+ had a big upswing and not its getting a slow decline. Rading is the only consistent thing in wow and its the reason people play it.

    Are there people who dont raid? Yes - many. But when servers and AH starts dying because raiders who farm all the stuff dissapear the rest will die with it.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You underestimate it. WoW pvp has never been big - ever. Not even once. M+ had a big upswing and not its getting a slow decline. Rading is the only consistent thing in wow and its the reason people play it.

    Are there people who dont raid? Yes - many. But when servers and AH starts dying because raiders who farm all the stuff dissapear the rest will die with it.
    Then perhaps they need to learn how to get more people into the raiding scene since it takes longer and a schedule and sure they get 6 or so ilvls ( lol who cares ) is not enough to entice them to take it up. Hell i timed a 18 without flask or armor kit or oils and potions where as any mythic raid requires far far far more with no pay off and being semi-dark souls with such tight tuning it becomes thank god its over and not holy shit we did it.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Then perhaps they need to learn how to get more people into the raiding scene since it takes longer and a schedule and sure they get 6 or so ilvls ( lol who cares ) is not enough to entice them to take it up. Hell i timed a 18 without flask or armor kit or oils and potions where as any mythic raid requires far far far more with no pay off and being semi-dark souls with such tight tuning it becomes thank god its over and not holy shit we did it.
    Completely agree.

    Normal and hc raiding needs to be worth doing and mythic raiding needs to be more accessible.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Normal and hc raiding needs to be worth doing and mythic raiding needs to be more accessible.
    As long as M+ remains infinitely accessible there is no pressing need for Mythic raiding to be accessible as well.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    As long as M+ remains infinitely accessible there is no pressing need for Mythic raiding to be accessible as well.
    Why not? I dont enjoy mythic+ very much. I do however enjoy raiding. The sad truth is that we havent been able to do mythic raiding for a while due to a lack of raiders on our server.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Why not? I dont enjoy mythic+ very much. I do however enjoy raiding. The sad truth is that we havent been able to do mythic raiding for a while due to a lack of raiders on our server.
    I get flak for this "elitist" opinion but mostly because what players mean when they say they want Mythic raiding to be more accessible is that they want either smaller raid sizes or for Mythic raiding in general to be easier. Considering how easy M+ is already (up to the point where its rewards are similar to Mythic raiding), I think suggestions like these would result in a severe dilution of skill expression in this game.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I think you put too little stock in the power of free advertisement...
    Your entire premise is utter nonsense. The number of expansion sales and sub count matters, not some moronic Twitch viewership.

    Just let raiding in its current form die. WoW will lose 10K gamers at best because of that, and that’s a high estimate. In fact most of the degenerate raiders are so heavily invested into this game they’ll never quit. Now, reinvent the endgame and in place of those 10K lost players you get 1 million new players.

    But look at Blizzard. This company hasn’t been innovating anything in more than a decade, so all they are doing is maintaining their shrinking cash cows with zero changes because they are risk averse and lack vision.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Your entire premise is utter nonsense. The number of expansion sales and sub count matters, not some moronic Twitch viewership.

    Just let raiding in its current form die. WoW will lose 10K gamers at best because of that, and that’s a high estimate. In fact most of the degenerate raiders are so heavily invested into this game they’ll never quit. Now, reinvent the endgame and in place of those 10K lost players you get 1 million new players.

    But look at Blizzard. This company hasn’t been innovating anything in more than a decade, so all they are doing is maintaining their shrinking cash cows with zero changes because they are risk averse and lack vision.
    You have absolutely no fucking idea how advertisement or exposure work. Using imaginary numbers to back up your non-existent argument isn't very compelling either.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You have absolutely no fucking idea how advertisement or exposure work. Using imaginary numbers to back up your non-existent argument isn't very compelling either.
    Who’s using imaginary numbers? First you conjured some imaginary Twitch viewer numbers and then you tried to convince us that you know how much revenue those views once per year generate. In fact you’re using nothing but imagination in your argument that RWF translates to subscriptions.

    Raiding is dead already and a relic of a bygone age. The game will be so much better when Blizzard moves on and uses the same resources on other more compelling, modern, accessible and exciting endgame options. And when they do, you can be there watching the Twitch numbers of WoW streamers.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Who’s using imaginary numbers? First you conjured some imaginary Twitch viewer numbers and then you tried to convince us that you know how much revenue those views once per year generate. In fact you’re using nothing but imagination in your argument that RWF translates to subscriptions.

    Raiding is dead already and a relic of a bygone age. The game will be so much better when Blizzard moves on and uses the same resources on other more compelling, modern, accessible and exciting endgame options. And when they do, you can be there watching the Twitch numbers of WoW streamers.
    Brother it doesn't take a marketing PhD to understand that having your video game on the front page of one of the single most visited gaming websites on the internet for weeks and months on end is good for the product. On the other hand, it takes an impressive level of reality denying cynicism to completely hand waive the importance of this so you can make a banal argument about how you think the game should be developed.

  19. #119
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Who’s using imaginary numbers? First you conjured some imaginary Twitch viewer numbers and then you tried to convince us that you know how much revenue those views once per year generate. In fact you’re using nothing but imagination in your argument that RWF translates to subscriptions.

    Raiding is dead already and a relic of a bygone age. The game will be so much better when Blizzard moves on and uses the same resources on other more compelling, modern, accessible and exciting endgame options. And when they do, you can be there watching the Twitch numbers of WoW streamers.
    Raiding is a core aspect of World of Warcraft, get used to it or find another game that suits your needs. Blizzard isn't going to ever remove it, and you know it. It's a huge social aspect of the game as well, so many communities, bonds, friendships have formed over guilds and raids.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by gobarj View Post
    Raiding is a core aspect of World of Warcraft, get used to it or find another game that suits your needs. Blizzard isn't going to ever remove it, and you know it. It's a huge social aspect of the game as well, so many communities, bonds, friendships have formed over guilds and raids.
    No one is suggesting the removal of raiding nor are they suggesting the gutting of it as a whole either, its the logistical nightmare and dedicated time on a weekly basis is what makes it miserable to people who just love to play games not a single game. If they limit the gains of mythic plus to nudge or push players into that direction is what will cause them more problems is what most of us are saying. Also raiding should not be the only end game progression and people should have options to advance their toon or satisfy goals with similar altho 6 item levels lower ( its a big deal i promise xD ).

    I posted in another thread why smaller more personal groups are better for me and why i think clicks are formed to begin with, i used to raid with people and mute half of them, not recall their names or know what their voice sounded like because outside of my small group of friends i could care less, i was there for the tier sets to push challenge modes or sell carries when i was not raiding. Now if they keep the creation catalyst going forward there will never be a reason to ever raid and i would be nothing but greatful for that, if people want to raid sure by all means but stop making it the only game in town.

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