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  1. #141
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    As I said: people have a delusion they want everything easy but in reality: competition would not exist at all if it was easy.
    The irony of you making this thread cause you are having trouble filling 20m raids......
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    The irony of you making this thread cause you are having trouble filling 20m raids......
    I'm not even subbed. The point there was that it's silly to expect a game to be 'just easy' and then have competition on top.
    Humans have competitions precisely because it is hard because otherwise they can't compete on who can 'beat hard'.

  3. #143
    The Lightbringer
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    IDK man but making it flex is gonna kill Mythic completely. I'm fine with that because I don't raid anymore and think that Blizz not shitting up the game on purpose to balance around world-first bullshit can only be an improvement but I'd never make the argument that it'd be better for raiders. It won't. I don't CARE it'd suck for them but if it would benefit me a tiny bit, I'd go along with Blizzard only failing through incompetence rather than babying the dying content that is Mythic raiding.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So rather than trying to incentivize 20M content your solution is to ensure everybody is equally miserable with 10M content?

    Sorry friend, take off the Cata/MoP nostalgia goggles. 10M Heroic raiding is not coming back and it is not the savior of raiding you're implying here.

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    Mythic needs a 20M because this is a game with 38 individual specs and classes and you're lying to yourself if you don't think that poses a risk to its overall reception. Blizzard is moving away from homogenization, not towards it. 10M raiding is fundamentally at odds with WoW's current design direction.
    Yeh they are moving more and more towards 5 man content where you can only have 1 tank and 1 healer per group.

  5. #145
    Banned Cynical Asshole's Avatar
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    Yes because Ion made raids into an epic pain in the ass, and M+ dungeons are much much muuuuch easier and less time consuming.

    Make raids fun again by reducing the amount of mechanics and weird gimmicks, and people won't just focus on dungeons.

  6. #146
    How is it that raids are the only activity in Classic, yet its still so popular? The answer is and has been plain for years yet people still go for idiotic answers like "get rid of 5 mans". Its the fact that people like easier raids. They just want to chill with their friends and get loot not wipe hundreds of times on bosses over and over. Blizz tuning raids for WF guilds that are 0.0001% of the playerbase is what killed raiding and nothing else.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    How is it that raids are the only activity in Classic, yet its still so popular? The answer is and has been plain for years yet people still go for idiotic answers like "get rid of 5 mans". Its the fact that people like easier raids. They just want to chill with their friends and get loot not wipe hundreds of times on bosses over and over. Blizz tuning raids for WF guilds that are 0.0001% of the playerbase is what killed raiding and nothing else.
    People want to feel like they are great they dont want to struggle to be great. I thought the raids were becoming to complex during Hellfire Citadel but combined with the more strict requirements for completion. Is there a subset of players who enjoy wiping 300+ times on a few bosses per raid? Sure but there are also people who enjoy getting kick in the balls but that does not mean you cater to those types either.

    Raids should become completable without the use of any addons and designed around it as such meaning you have a very clearly visable circle or item to move out of so that way it teaches the player etc. I would propose a stacking over time nerf either visable or not to the playerbase akin to ICC. If it is to easy like Emerald Nightmare then you have opened a large playerbase for the raiding scene to draw from and not look at it as a insult to your skill or ability as a dev.

    Also raiding is becoming more of a niche because people would rather get inferior rewards without the bullshit that raiding creates. Raiding also not being pick up and play has also led to its falling out of favor also with the population due to more casual games becoming more popularized but again ruining the rewards of competing avenues wont make raiding gain more participation it would only hurt the overall game at this point because it has been shown people will just throw their hands up and walk away. That being said i am going to raid the first tier at the very least and once i clear the raid one time, i do not farm for gear nor do i chase logs or care about ranks i will unsub because i have " beaten " the game in my own mind.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-11-25 at 07:49 PM.

  8. #148
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Dont be selfish, i like to watch world first race. Same as i lkke to watch professional soccer. Do you want professional soccer to be flex as well where 1 team is 15 and the other is 11?
    Thats not even what they said about the WFR. try reading out sometime its pretty fun

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I'm not even subbed. The point there was that it's silly to expect a game to be 'just easy' and then have competition on top.
    Humans have competitions precisely because it is hard because otherwise they can't compete on who can 'beat hard'.
    Humans have competition not because it's hard, but because there's money in it. Because others watch (while they themselves don't put in effort, I might add). It's why all athletes are pretty much using illegal substances, just takes a while for tech to catch up and discover them. It's why every world first race you hear about chests.
    It isn't abput fairness or equal ground or challange, it's abput whatever it takes to win to get money. Down the line it's all wannabes. And this kind of crap should not really affect playing, it should all be outside of it in an organized environment. But nevermind, if it sells, it sells.

  10. #150
    I have one friend left who still raids mythic. He's in a top 1500 guild - they didn't kill Jailor, got to 11/13.

    They raid every week, finish all of heroic in 2-3 weeks, then spend the rest of the patch battling mythic. In mythic, they eventually make one huge lockout that they extend over a period of months in an attempt to get CE. They do hundreds of attempts on each boss. For each of the past few patches, they have quit raiding after the roster boss hits.

    It sounds TERRIBLE. Every week, wiping over and over to the same boss. They don't want to reset their lockout because the bosses are too hard, and because with roster turnover they'll basically need to re-progress on those fights.

    I miss the days when at this point, blizz would have implemented a 30% buff or something that would make mythic somewhat accessible to guilds like that. There's no reason it needs to be that hard for guilds after the first two or three months.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I have one friend left who still raids mythic. He's in a top 1500 guild - they didn't kill Jailor, got to 11/13.

    They raid every week, finish all of heroic in 2-3 weeks, then spend the rest of the patch battling mythic. In mythic, they eventually make one huge lockout that they extend over a period of months in an attempt to get CE. They do hundreds of attempts on each boss. For each of the past few patches, they have quit raiding after the roster boss hits.

    It sounds TERRIBLE. Every week, wiping over and over to the same boss. They don't want to reset their lockout because the bosses are too hard, and because with roster turnover they'll basically need to re-progress on those fights.

    I miss the days when at this point, blizz would have implemented a 30% buff or something that would make mythic somewhat accessible to guilds like that. There's no reason it needs to be that hard for guilds after the first two or three months.
    This describes an absolutely enormous amount of guilds. And it really is crazy, but there's no intermediary content. Guilds go from killing multiple bosses in one night to taking a night or two on prog to taking months and then inevitably disbanding or going on break. And the game design never changes.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    This describes an absolutely enormous amount of guilds. And it really is crazy, but there's no intermediary content. Guilds go from killing multiple bosses in one night to taking a night or two on prog to taking months and then inevitably disbanding or going on break. And the game design never changes.
    They foolishly think that people will rise to the occasion that is horseshit as ghostcrawler put it all those years ago. When raiding was the only endgame activity in town it was fine but now WoW is competing with every single other online game but also mythic plus for those of us who want to only play a MMO in spurts which hampers the collective pool but at this point if raiding in the first season of DF is as soul sucking as it has since WoD then i will just quit at KSM every season there after since i am here for the experience not ranks or logs or standing.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Humans have competition not because it's hard, but because there's money in it.
    Did you not have a common childhood? Humans play games all the time just for fun. But always: they also love to win; and it makes sense that they love to win; being better isn't just an empty trophy but proof you have better skills in certain aspects and that may help later when the real push comes to shove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    IDK man but making it flex is gonna kill Mythic completely.
    I was opposing flex in the OP. I said unique new maps just for 10man hard mode, precisely because I also believe flex sucks for end-game competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    "get rid of 5 mans"
    that's a strawman (I never said that in the OP). 5mans are useful because they are by definition the easiest to form in the middle of the day of any day and don't have to go through the gigantic chore of finding 19 people.

    the problem I was describing looks at the big picture; there is practically only 20man and 5man for end-game PvE of high difficulty; there's a big gap in the market of competition for a steady number between 5 and 20.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-11-27 at 09:15 PM.

  14. #154
    I honestly miss when raids had two difficulties and there was a 10m mode. These days there's so many difficulties that two problems occured

    1 - They've overtuned mythic raids, specifically the later bosses and especially the last boss
    2 - They've overtuned heroic raids, specifically the later bosses and especially the last boss

    I've done it since TBC, and I've always done it on Mythic relative difficulty with several CEs, and honestly things have only gotten worse when Ion took over. I'm tired of this idiotic show that's put on for viewership while people have to suffer the bullshit until 3 rounds of nerfs hit the bosses. Like M+, dungeons and raids aren't meant to be competitive, and unless you're trying for world first, no one cares about your achievements. The nerfs that are done repeatedly to Mythic raiding already invalidate your achievement because the nerfs + a full raid of overgeared players will get those bosses down.

    I used to always think that M+ was too easy for the rewards it gives, but I've slowly come to realize it's mythic raiding that's needlessly difficult.
    Last edited by La; 2022-12-05 at 11:34 AM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

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