Poll: What do you think the pantheon of life and death are?

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The "realm of the dead" and "realm of death magic" are one and the same thing.
    The Shadowlands ARE the realm of Death, and the afterlife to all mortal souls.
    Yes and no. We have no real confirmation that there is a "realm of death magic" if that is what it means.

    And realm and cosmic force while related aren't necesasrily the same. Otherwise you could only use death magic in the realm of death, and the tdeath pantheon would only be able to wield death magic, which theyc elarly wield every cosmic power available.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    No shit, but the realm of said Death is made of said Death magic, which is said force.
    Is that what it all it means? I think there is a play on words. When you use death magic, you arne't using all the magic of the shadowlands you're pretty much using domination magic only.


    What exactly do you think "death magic" means ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Death magic is just anima and its use.
    But then anima is clearly described as the essence of the living souls that transition to death. It's a funny way of definign "death magic" ..butI concede you could be right. Anima is the "mana" of that realm. The fuel

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    So we all know the Primus called the Eternal Ones in the Shadowlands the Pantheon of death, and eluded to Elune being the Winter queen's counter part in the pantheon of life. so what do you think this pantheon of death/life are?


    1. God like beings over the realm of the living and the realm of the dead

    i.e. existience is split into those that are "alive" and those that are "dead" - and Pantheon of death are the beings over those in the universe of the dead while the Pantheon of life are those governing those who are alive in the realm of the living.


    2. Pantheon over death magic and life magic

    i.e. they are the cosmic forces of death, and death magic's pantheon is what




    Do the cosmic powers have pantheons? To me that doesn't make sense because they are powers - inert forces, that beings can command. Some beings may be great at one type, but like elements (i.e. air, fire, water, ) they are just powers. You can have beings spawned of them infused with them, but I don't think you have god's of cosmic powers.

    As far as we know, both the Eternal ones, and every being considered a god has been able to use multiple sources of magic - Eternal ones use several kinds, the titans do too, even the loa, tied to the cycle of life and death, do not exclusively wield nature magic, in fact not many of them can.

    Does the solution to this miystery reveal who the first ones are?
    You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

    There are 6 Cosmic Forces. 6 Forces that share a song of Creation, these 6 Forces EACH have a Zereth and a Cosmic Domain attached to them.

    The First Ones created the Cosmic Blueprint for all things, and the workshops, the Laws, and Cosmic Lords of their influences (the influences being the Cosmic Forces, their balance, the cycles, etc).

    There are implied/confirmed tbh Lords for each Cosmic Force, with Disorder being the only one that MAY not have one due to its nature, but that is a debatable topic considering they could straight up either make one or write one in by taking from the Chaos Gods from 40k.

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    That's like the most simple explanation I can give out...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I may be a be outdated here:

    For life we have the Wild Gods and Elune, Earth Mother, An'she, and Lo'sho.

    For light we have the Naaru.

    For Chaos, we have the old gods.

    For void, we have the void lords.
    Wild gods are linked to the natural cycle true, but they aren't all nature wielding beings - Rezan for example uses light magic all the time. The bat loa blood and shadow, Bwonsamdi clearly wields death magic, not life/nature - and is a loa, in fact, only gonk is specifically knonw for using nature magic. Cenarius, the greatest of the wild gods, is a master of nature magic - from his father Marlone's side, but also arcane from his mother Elune's side and we know druidism is actually the balance of nature and arcane concerned with the protection of the natural life cycle - which is a comibnation of nature and arcane.

    Elune uses arcane, void and light magic - never once seen her or her followers utilise life magic.

    Earth Mother is Azeroth - a titan in actual fact, but the veneration of the earth is linked to the Elementals and Therazanes realm- hence the Tauren's very shamanistic origins.

    An'she - is a someone we know little off - however is his power solar (nature) or Solar (arcane) or Light magic? given that the priests and paladins of An'she seem to only wielld light magic. - I would say he isa light entity and associated with the sun because he produces light?? I don't know enough about him.


    Naaru are beings of light, created by Elune - so if Elune is life and that is exclusively nature magic - it makes NO SENSE, she also is the balnace between light and void. So clearly the concepts are not that clearly divisible.
    Last edited by Mace; 2022-08-15 at 04:28 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Where was this confirmed?
    cosmic forces are forces not realms.

    The living realm is a realm - because it is a place where all things that are alive are, while the death realm is a realm because it is the place wehre things that are dead - i.e. sepaated from the living are.

    It is not hte realm of "death magic" or the realm of "anture life magic" Cosmic forces are are just that forces. How can Fel have a realm or arcane a re realm? These are forces that compromise the living world.

    Now Light and void are more basic than that, becuase all things are ordered from them, in our world we have light and we have void, the spaces in between - this is what they are so they have realms. but it's a different concept than life and death.

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    I think that is a player mis conception. The Pantheon of death do not control or cast death magic. exclusively, they use all kinds of magic, some moreso than others - as you would expect near divine beings to - while death is a type of magic, the realm of death is not the death cosmic force embodiment. Domination magic is the name of death isn't it?

    I think players have confused the issue entirely, attributing realms to the cosmic forces/powers where they a re none, especially with death and life - because death in the realm of death is not referring to a cosmic power it is referring to the place where the dead exist - dead as in those who are permanently cut off from those that are living . those that are living are in the realm of life. the realm of life is not dominated by nature magic, it has all the cosmic forces and powers operating.
    Light and Shadows clash exists to set up the foundation for Reality. The Chronicle makes it clear that Reality was made from that Clash, and SUPPOSEDLY the Nether also (which is debatable at best now), but now only is that Titan PoV (with it being a very limited viewpoint of existence entire), but it also clearly expressed that Light and Shadow existed before "the cosmos" was shaped, which again is debatable at best cause we know the Cosmos was a thing before Reality, and the Chronicle calls the Cosmos "Reality" and places connected to it.

    Nowadays, we know that every force is as connected to eachother as the other, and were made and balanced by the Progenitors so that the Cosmic Design would take fold. We know guys like Zovaal were a thing before Realities birth, we know of a 7th power outside of the design (which imo could be a new design entire), etc.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

    There are 6 Cosmic Forces. 6 Forces that share a song of Creation, these 6 Forces EACH have a Zereth and a Cosmic Domain attached to them.

    The First Ones created the Cosmic Blueprint for all things, and the workshops, the Laws, and Cosmic Lords of their influences (the influences being the Cosmic Forces, their balance, the cycles, etc).

    There are implied/confirmed tbh Lords for each Cosmic Force, with Disorder being the only one that MAY not have one due to its nature, but that is a debatable topic considering they could straight up either make one or write one in by taking from the Chaos Gods from 40k.

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    That's like the most simple explanation I can give out...
    I think you are right, ti's not a genius concept at all, and not mennt to be pondered beyond the direct information given.

    Perhaps the best I can say is that if you're a god you're not limited to any one cosmic force.. mortals aren't limited.. it doesn't mean you aren't tied to one.

    So for exampleall of us alive, are part of the realm of life. But then Chornicles said that living people are actually light shards that evolved and have an expression in this phsyical universe.

    Again perhaps I'm thinking too much, and it isn't meant to be thought about much.

  6. #26
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    its always posible that the demon pantheon is dead,either by titans or sargeras or some other faction,i dont see how else sargeras could amass such a large following of demons if they had their own big strong leaders
    How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Wild gods are linked to the natural cycle true, but they aren't all nature wielding beings - Rezan for example uses light magic all the time. The bat loa blood and shadow, Bwonsamdi clearly wields death magic, not life/nature - and is a loa, in fact, only gonk is specifically knonw for using nature magic. Cenarius, the greatest of the wild gods, is a master of nature magic - from his father Marlone's side, but also arcane from his mother Elune's side and we know druidism is actually the balance of nature and arcane concerned with the protection of the natural life cycle - which is a comibnation of nature and arcane.

    Elune uses arcane, void and light magic - never once seen her or her followers utilise life magic.

    Earth Mother is Azeroth - a titan in actual fact, but the veneration of the earth is linked to the Elementals and Therazanes realm- hence the Tauren's very shamanistic origins.

    An'she - is a someone we know little off - however is his power solar (nature) or Solar (arcane) or Light magic? given that the priests and paladins of An'she seem to only wielld light magic. - I would say he isa light entity and associated with the sun because he produces light?? I don't know enough about him.


    Naaru are beings of light, created by Elune - so if Elune is life and that is exclusively nature magic - it makes NO SENSE, she also is the balnace between light and void. So clearly the concepts are not that clearly divisible.
    You can rule over 1 power and still possess magics of other forces. Eonar is one of, if not the second most clear example of this.

    And the Druids, namely Balance Druids, namely wield Life magics, YET they use lots of light energies also. Does not mean they wield the Light namely, or that their powers originate from a Light being.

    Elune GAVE LIFE to the Naaru based off Khadgar's SPECULATION, and much of what Elune does regarding Order, Darkness, etc is mostly in regards to renewing hope, or life to a place or to a group of people, whether it be from a force, a realm, or a mere planet.

    And no. Elune and the WQ are sisters. The Winter Queen represents the opposite of her Sisters role in the cycles of Life and Death. Elune seems to be far more "vexing" and outgoing compared to the WQ however (vexing being from the WQs own words btw when you click on her repeatedly).

  9. #29
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    For Chaos, we have the Demons...

    Tf do you mean???
    Yeah, basically the Old Gods belong to a damn Zereth Umbra and Tumult is for chaos, which is basically nothing else but fel/twisting nether.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2022-08-15 at 04:41 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?
    The Nether appears to be far more than what we've seen, like the Warp in some way, consisting of a supposedly numberless set of layers, areas and whatnot. It was originally in the old lore a twisted mirror of the Dark Beyond, and while it may be the case, that could just be but a veil area around it, as we know nowadays, it is supposedly the Plane of Disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Robots. It's all robots.
    The Automa and whatnot are "robots" in a sense. The protoforms you face off against in the Sepulcher are just that, Protoform vessels. Many of them lack form, a spirit, or a factor of magic to give it structure or purpose. Not really a "tech" thing tbh, and more so just a bunch of shapes and whatnot, a printed host body.

    The form needs a force to make the gears turn and for it to work, and the force needs a structure to balance itself and to give off its own shape. That can apply itself to the Cosmos itself, which requires the Balance of the Forces to exist, the same way the Forces need the scales so they don't collapse upon themselves and end the song of the Progenitors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think you are right, ti's not a genius concept at all, and not mennt to be pondered beyond the direct information given.

    Perhaps the best I can say is that if you're a god you're not limited to any one cosmic force.. mortals aren't limited.. it doesn't mean you aren't tied to one.

    So for exampleall of us alive, are part of the realm of life. But then Chornicles said that living people are actually light shards that evolved and have an expression in this phsyical universe.

    Again perhaps I'm thinking too much, and it isn't meant to be thought about much.
    The Mortals are alive, yes, but not everything in Reality is the work of Life alone. Reality is the Heart of which the Cosmic Design results in. It's the work of the Progenitors and their Design in motion, in full swing, the Nexus engine that powers other realms and keeps the Forces in motion, in balance. The Cosmic Lords of the realms they inhabit embody different aspects of said force in a way, and serve as the Progenitors' "children". They watch over the Realms, they maintain the balance and the realms purpose, and they keep the Laws of all things intact, whilist watching over and tryna claim Reality as their own. Reminder, the Forces started off in strife, so it makes sense for the embodiments of the influences to do similar in different ways, but fundamentally, every is balanced out.

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    Reality AKA the Dark Beyond isn't the Life Realm.

    The Life Realm has yet to be fully explored, same with the Realms of Light and Dark, as well as Order and to some extent Disorder.

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    Death is the first force we fundamentally explored and learned more of. We even went to its heart, where the heart of Eternity sets the gears of Death in motion, the very heart of that cosmic Force and its engine.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think that is a player mis conception. The Pantheon of death do not control or cast death magic. exclusively, they use all kinds of magic, some moreso than others - as you would expect near divine beings to - while death is a type of magic, the realm of death is not the death cosmic force embodiment. Domination magic is the name of death isn't it?
    I'd say the misconception here is the notion that the named "Pantheon of Death" is set over Death magic specifically, as opposed to the mechanisms and systems of Death as a conceptual process. The Eternal Ones who comprise the pantheon of Death use all types of magic, as you said, including those whose origins can be found in the realms of Death (e.g. Necromancy and Domination). But obviously, they also use other forms of magic, including Nature, Arcane, Fire, Shadow, and a wide variety of others. Unlike the physical universe where such powers derive from Ley energy, or via Elemental connections, the magic in the Shadowlands is derived primarily from anima, the energy of souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think players have confused the issue entirely, attributing realms to the cosmic forces/powers where they a re none, especially with death and life - because death in the realm of death is not referring to a cosmic power it is referring to the place where the dead exist - dead as in those who are permanently cut off from those that are living . those that are living are in the realm of life. the realm of life is not dominated by nature magic, it has all the cosmic forces and powers operating.
    I'd largely agree. The various realms of creation were devised and separated according to their function, not any predominant magical force that completely constitutes a given realm. Death, for instance, in its form as the Shadowlands, is all about the judgment and assignment of souls to a specific afterlife scenario. There is an energy that accompanies these souls that is accessible and manipulable to the natural denizens of the Shadowlands such as the Kyrian, Venthyr, Necrolords, and others - said energy, called anima, can be bent to a variety of purposes and ultimate effects. Presumably, the other realms will have similar configurations, including natural denizens and a natural energy source that said denizens employ to create their own forms of magic.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?
    if we go by the premise that every force has a pantheon

  13. #33
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    Just like the Pantheon of Order, they are combined with various members. The Pantheon of Death was introduced in Shadowlands, as for life, we do not know, but once more, a combination of various members such as Elune.

    Just because they are tagged under a certain category does not mean they are direct of such behavior/magic/connection.
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  14. #34
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    Pantheon of disorder no longer exists since Sargeras’ imprisonment. Now they are just a bunch of chaotic and meaningless demons flying around Twisting Nether and that’s it.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Pantheon of disorder no longer exists since Sargeras’ imprisonment. Now they are just a bunch of chaotic and meaningless demons flying around Twisting Nether and that’s it.
    Unless there are greater entities of chaos that exist that neither the demons nor Sargeras were aware of.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Unless there are greater entities of chaos that exist that neither the demons nor Sargeras were aware of.
    Yeah weren’t there some super demons that even he was supposed to be a bit concerned about

  17. #37
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?
    I honestly don’t know why you are debating lore when you have shown multiple times you have not read or understood it and everyone is telling you the same thing because we have read it and understood it. If you are this confused please go and read up about the Zereths on wowpedia and the pantheon of death and the shadowlands and read how this is all explained in game etc with examples and reference texts. Don’t come here and argue what is known cannon for the IP saying “nah you have it wrong it’s not a pantheon of death” when it is actually that

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'd say the misconception here is the notion that the named "Pantheon of Death" is set over Death magic specifically, as opposed to the mechanisms and systems of Death as a conceptual process. The Eternal Ones who comprise the pantheon of Death use all types of magic, as you said, including those whose origins can be found in the realms of Death (e.g. Necromancy and Domination). But obviously, they also use other forms of magic, including Nature, Arcane, Fire, Shadow, and a wide variety of others. Unlike the physical universe where such powers derive from Ley energy, or via Elemental connections, the magic in the Shadowlands is derived primarily from anima, the energy of souls.
    yes, this is what I have observed - a conflation of the magic force with either the mechanism/system or the very pantheon beings themselves. The titans - have never been pure arcane beings in fact we find the light a stronger presence. The notion that they sit as some sort of gods of arcane magic, or the Death pantheon are gods of death magic is what i think a lot of players think.


    Despite it clearly not been the case in nearly EVERY example of Pantheon god like beings around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post

    I'd largely agree. The various realms of creation were devised and separated according to their function, not any predominant magical force that completely constitutes a given realm. Death, for instance, in its form as the Shadowlands, is all about the judgment and assignment of souls to a specific afterlife scenario. There is an energy that accompanies these souls that is accessible and manipulable to the natural denizens of the Shadowlands such as the Kyrian, Venthyr, Necrolords, and others - said energy, called anima, can be bent to a variety of purposes and ultimate effects. Presumably, the other realms will have similar configurations, including natural denizens and a natural energy source that said denizens employ to create their own forms of magic.
    Other realms will indeed have their own unique operations, but I don't think they even quite exist like this. What exactly would a realm of order be? I can understand the concept of the realm of death - i.e. the after life, and the realm of life , i.e. life. The light even as realm - where it's just pure light and the void - where it is pure darkness. But you can't make such assignments to order, or elements or chaos - unless the realm is both the conceptual process and mechanisms and systems that is constitute or produce said thing.


    Could it be that these relams are the reason we have all these cosmic forces and powers? That is not to say the function fo the realms is to produce these cosmic powers, but then maybe for something like Order that is what it is, while the realm of death has an entirely different prurpose as a place for the afterlife - and these are the functionalities of existence - we need life, death (for a cycle), light and drakness, order and disorder etc.

    /shrug

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    I honestly don’t know why you are debating lore when you have shown multiple times you have not read or understood it and everyone is telling you the same thing because we have read it and understood it. If you are this confused please go and read up about the Zereths on wowpedia and the pantheon of death and the shadowlands and read how this is all explained in game etc with examples and reference texts. Don’t come here and argue what is known cannon for the IP saying “nah you have it wrong it’s not a pantheon of death” when it is actually that
    Ah, you're quick to assume I don't understand, but not enough to see what other things I am trying to point out. Four lines to tell me I'm wrong and what "everyone else" is telling me (by your reckoning), is right - about what? You don't state. Offer your insights? You give none. You quoted me just now. Pause to think what I'm trying to say? Demons aren't a realm, Chaos is cosmic force, demons aren't - demons are beings. how can you have a demon pantheon? - surely if you're going by the same standard you would have a Chaos pantheon and a chaos realm?

    Try to see what someone is trying to say before jumping or creating a band wagon of they are wrong and start lecturing them about it.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Just like the Pantheon of Order, they are combined with various members. The Pantheon of Death was introduced in Shadowlands, as for life, we do not know, but once more, a combination of various members such as Elune.

    Just because they are tagged under a certain category does not mean they are direct of such behavior/magic/connection.
    They have share different aspects of the force, and therefore MUST share a behavior and connection. But yes the Magics do not have to be INHERENTLY the same however, but they must fundamentally serve Deaths purpose though.

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