Poll: What do you think the pantheon of life and death are?

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    1,987
    In the following, you can see the points of observation for our sun and moon phases. When the moon goes completely black, it passes through the Shadowlands. This was during the burning of the World Tree. Normally, mortal souls animate so they fuel the Shadowlands realms so life can be reborn one day. Only then can the life and death cycle be fulfilled and balance preserved.

    Behold my new creation!


  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I wouldn't really use the terms "pantheon" or "gods" for 3D printed robots with room temperature IQs.
    This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.

  3. #43
    Bad ideas.
    Sadly I thnk the current team couldn't make cosmic stuff interesting.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.
    You think so? For me it only reeinforced the dull and robotic vibe I get from the newer lore anyways. Mysteries and Gods are so passé. This ain't your daddy's fantasy setting anymore.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #45
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.
    I've never really understood the whole meme about the Eternal Ones, and other denizens of the Shadowlands, being "robots." What we find in Zereth Mortis with the various protoform vessels aren't robots, really; they're akin to shells or husks that are fueled by soul essences and anima and turn into actual beings made of flesh and blood - it's a magical transformation, not a mechanical one. The genesis of the Eternal Ones in Zereth Mortis isn't any more robotic than the Titans themselves, really - the only real difference is that the medium they gestate in is different, and in the case of the Eternal Ones is produced in a sort of foundry as opposed to being formed within planets and using their substance to eventually take shape.

    The personalities and aesthetics of the Winter Queen and Sire Denathrius, for example, aren't a product of any kind of "programming" like you'd have with an android or a cybernetic creature - they're a product of the soul essence their vessels were imbued with. We see the same outcome when Pelagos' soul is transferred to the new Arbiter's vessel at the culmination of the Zereth Mortis story arc, the outcome isn't a robot, it's Pelagos' essence occupying a more powerful form, fortified and enhanced with additional anima and capability via the powerful vessel he was provided.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    4,437
    They already ruined death
    Dont ruin life too
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  7. #47
    Hopefully the next victim of a retcon just like when they toyed with Elune being a naaru and then a naaru progenitor.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #48
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Hopefully the next victim of a retcon just like when they toyed with Elune being a naaru and then a naaru progenitor.
    It's fully possible for Elune to be the progenitor of the naaru without being one herself - the naaru always struck me more as constructs than as organic beings in any case. Seems entirely likely that Elune crafted the elder naaru herself for whatever purpose she had, then set them loose to do their thing. Perhaps Elune considered the Void a threat to her own domain, Life, and opted to utilize the Voids' antithesis essence, the Light imbued with sentient life, to actively combat it.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's fully possible for Elune to be the progenitor of the naaru without being one herself - the naaru always struck me more as constructs than as organic beings in any case. Seems entirely likely that Elune crafted the elder naaru herself for whatever purpose she had, then set them loose to do their thing. Perhaps Elune considered the Void a threat to her own domain, Life, and opted to utilize the Voids' antithesis essence, the Light imbued with sentient life, to actively combat it.
    It's less whether you can square the two but that both are mistakes. Elune was unique in all of Warcraft lore by not having any origin or classification, deliberately so. The flirtation with doing so earlier was a mistake, SL actually committing to it was much worse. It gives her not just an implied origin and connection, but also gives her lines and canonical actions. It turns her from a symbol and a presence into a character and a character who's first action is to commit a filing error trying to help a close relative. A relative with a much more concrete origin as being put out by the demiurges of the setting which has a knock-on effect on Elune. Elune got the absolute worst deal out of anyone in SL and the only way to reduce the damage is to nix this backstory as quickly as possible. What was done with her is the sum of every complaint about demystification put together.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #50
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's less whether you can square the two but that both are mistakes. Elune was unique in all of Warcraft lore by not having any origin or classification, deliberately so. The flirtation with doing so earlier was a mistake, SL actually committing to it was much worse. It gives her not just an implied origin and connection, but also gives her lines and canonical actions. It turns her from a symbol and a presence into a character and a character who's first action is to commit a filing error trying to help a close relative. A relative with a much more concrete origin as being put out by the demiurges of the setting which has a knock-on effect on Elune. Elune got the absolute worst deal out of anyone in SL and the only way to reduce the damage is to nix this backstory as quickly as possible. What was done with her is the sum of every complaint about demystification put together.
    Eh, that's more of a YMMV type of complaint. I understand the issue with demystification, as it's similar to what hit the Old Gods some time ago when their origins were revealed, but that's also part and parcel of telling a story that can't rightly end. In order to further storytelling, you're always going to be in the process of revealing motivations and unveiling backstory, unless you simply don't explore those story elements (meaning you're at a fundamental standstill). And yes, WoW could've always opted to let Sargeras, the Old Gods, Elune, et al remain in the background forever while it explored other story arcs or lore, but that's not the choice that was made. Micro or macro, you'll always have the same issue as a story unfolds - details get revealed, the mists of lore get stripped away, and on and on it goes. The more we know about Elune, the less mystical Elune would ultimately prove to be.

    Danuser tried, in his way, to restore a degree of mystery by pushing outward and creating a new, unknown force (the First Ones) to serve as WoW's mystified background. Again, YMMV as to how successful this was, and whether or not this new backstory type of lore compares favorably with the older stuff.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Eh, that's more of a YMMV type of complaint. I understand the issue with demystification, as it's similar to what hit the Old Gods some time ago when their origins were revealed, but that's also part and parcel of telling a story that can't rightly end. In order to further storytelling, you're always going to be in the process of revealing motivations and unveiling backstory, unless you simply don't explore those story elements (meaning you're at a fundamental standstill). And yes, WoW could've always opted to let Sargeras, the Old Gods, Elune, et al remain in the background forever while it explored other story arcs or lore, but that's not the choice that was made. Micro or macro, you'll always have the same issue as a story unfolds - details get revealed, the mists of lore get stripped away, and on and on it goes. The more we know about Elune, the less mystical Elune would ultimately prove to be.

    Danuser tried, in his way, to restore a degree of mystery by pushing outward and creating a new, unknown force (the First Ones) to serve as WoW's mystified background. Again, YMMV as to how successful this was, and whether or not this new backstory type of lore compares favorably with the older stuff.
    Elune is sui generis. Chronicle endeavoured to transition Warcraft from soft to hard magic, applying a frame retroactively to material intended with a much looser approach, but it didn't even try with Elune. Her being inexplicable beyond her relation to the night elves, an ineffable god that's exclusive to them is her entire concept. Any extrapolation past that defeats her purpose and any explanation you can offer after 20 years, throughout which Elune has always been present and would continue to be, would fail because it wouldn't match the hype. The Old Gods and Titan explanations made both worse and Chronicle as a whole shrank the setting to the point where something like SL was mandatory to avoid penning the writers in now that there was no higher instance, but they've in their favour that at the time of writing 3 out of 4 Old Gods were defeated and the Titans were off world. We knew exponentially more about both of those even pre-Chronicle than we did Elune and they were, unlike Elune, characters with definable personalities and actions outside the realm of myth, even familial relations and lines in the case of the Titans. Not the case for Elune pre-SL. To add to this, the changes made to the Old Gods and Titans served a purpose in so far as it slotted them across the cosmology and would define the role the left-over Old God and the Titans in Legion would do. However poor those stories may be, they hinged on revelations made there. Elune was deliberately left out of the cosmology and the effect of having her physically appear and speak, with definable actions attached, only diminished her in standing and answered questions that nobody was asking, like why the night elves went to hell in a story hinging on everyone going to hell.

    In addition, the thing that makes a lot of people hate SL's worldbuilding and which is an aspect of it I quite like, i.e that the mechanical nature of what's presented is deliberate, not an unintentional byproduct but with the artificiality as a major focus is something Elune's plot line has nothing to do with. There's no reflection by any participant about what her relationship with the WQ implies about what Elune is, no night elf considering the role of their goddess as a fallible construct. Her story is perfunctory, falls into the same pitfall Chronicle avoided, diminishes the one it's focused on and goes nowhere. It's a purely destructive exercise on one of the only remaining deliberate blanks in the setting. Made even worse considering that, as you point out and I agree, the addition of the First Ones is a deliberate backtrack away from Chronicle solving every aspect of the setting and leaving no higher instance except Elune around. By shredding the only lasting higher mystery for a wretched plot beat in a terrible storyline only to add another layer of mystery out of whole cloth it eliminated a mainstay of the setting since Day 1, core to the playable races, did nothing with that revelation and then poisoned the well for their ersatz mystery.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #52
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Elune is sui generis. Chronicle endeavoured to transition Warcraft from soft to hard magic, applying a frame retroactively to material intended with a much looser approach, but it didn't even try with Elune. Her being inexplicable beyond her relation to the night elves, an ineffable god that's exclusive to them is her entire concept. Any extrapolation past that defeats her purpose and any explanation you can offer after 20 years, throughout which Elune has always been present and would continue to be, would fail because it wouldn't match the hype. The Old Gods and Titan explanations made both worse and Chronicle as a whole shrank the setting to the point where something like SL was mandatory to avoid penning the writers in now that there was no higher instance, but they've in their favour that at the time of writing 3 out of 4 Old Gods were defeated and the Titans were off world. We knew exponentially more about both of those even pre-Chronicle than we did Elune and they were, unlike Elune, characters with definable personalities and actions outside the realm of myth, even familial relations and lines in the case of the Titans. Not the case for Elune pre-SL. To add to this, the changes made to the Old Gods and Titans served a purpose in so far as it slotted them across the cosmology and would define the role the left-over Old God and the Titans in Legion would do. However poor those stories may be, they hinged on revelations made there. Elune was deliberately left out of the cosmology and the effect of having her physically appear and speak, with definable actions attached, only diminished her in standing and answered questions that nobody was asking, like why the night elves went to hell in a story hinging on everyone going to hell.

    In addition, the thing that makes a lot of people hate SL's worldbuilding and which is an aspect of it I quite like, i.e that the mechanical nature of what's presented is deliberate, not an unintentional byproduct but with the artificiality as a major focus is something Elune's plot line has nothing to do with. There's no reflection by any participant about what her relationship with the WQ implies about what Elune is, no night elf considering the role of their goddess as a fallible construct. Her story is perfunctory, falls into the same pitfall Chronicle avoided, diminishes the one it's focused on and goes nowhere. It's a purely destructive exercise on one of the only remaining deliberate blanks in the setting. Made even worse considering that, as you point out and I agree, the addition of the First Ones is a deliberate backtrack away from Chronicle solving every aspect of the setting and leaving no higher instance except Elune around. By shredding the only lasting higher mystery for a wretched plot beat in a terrible storyline only to add another layer of mystery out of whole cloth it eliminated a mainstay of the setting since Day 1, core to the playable races, did nothing with that revelation and then poisoned the well for their ersatz mystery.
    I would disagree on both the scores that Elune is unique, and that the circumscribed story from Chronicle and Legion, in addition to Shadowlands, had no effect or impact on Elune's concept. Elune doesn't have to be directly mentioned to be impacted - and the changes Chronicle dovetail nicely with those in Legion where it is revealed Elune is their likely progenitor and, to a degree, acts through them as her vehicle (which hearkens back to Velen's potential confusion of Elune being a naaru herself). That being said, neither Chronicle nor Shadowlands really perform a hard classification or its requisite diminishing of Elune - we still don't know her exact nature, and although we can infer a number of things about her we can't be sure if those inferences are necessarily fact. She's the sister of the Winter Queen, for example, but does that mean she's on the same relative tier as the Winter Queen as a former construct created in a Zereth dimension of her own, or that their "sisterhood" is a more metaphorical one owing to their shared natures and roles, albeit divided between Life and Death? It's still quite possible that Elune remains the universe's sole deity, as it were, and has an origin beyond what we've thus far inferred.

    Some speculation holds that Elune herself is one of the First Ones, perhaps the only of their number who opted to remain in creation to oversee and/or influence it. Elune may also be something completely unaccounted for in the designs of the First Ones - perhaps she is the product of the nebulous "seventh force" that exists outside the pattern, representing the will of life to be its own thing or somesuch. There's a lot of narrative wiggle room for Elune, in other words.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  13. #53
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    1,987
    I have been scoping the cosmos and I have found a star whose name is very similar to Elune's in World of Warcraft. It's Elnath-Beta Tauri. That star is a blue giant. I would laugh if Elune was an actual Tauren constellar, which is an actual zodiac constellation. The most hilarious thing about this is that it's located in between Orion (Rygelon) and Perseus (Algalon). I haven't found the Tauren lineage, but it would seem that Zandalari Trolls and Tauren are Azertoh's native species. Even Brann Bronzebeard believes that the tauren may ultimately be descended from an unknown bull Ancient, or some kind of animal spirit predating the Emerald Dream. Let's just wait till Azeroth wakes up, and it would appear to be a female cow. Oh my god!
    Behold my new creation!


  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    They are not a pantheon whatsoever.

    A Pantheon in the sense this thread is talking about, is the ruling group of entities governing a cosmic plane and its magic.
    The Shadowlands has the Eternal Ones.
    Life has Elune and whoever else they wanna add.
    Order has the OG Pantheon we know and love.
    Void has the Void Lords.
    Light has god (heh) knows what.
    And nobody knows who knows what the Fel Pantheon is, or if there even is one given its the plane of Disorder.

    Elemental Lords are just powerful elemental Spirits that end up in a representative or ruling position, each Planet has one.
    Draenor has its Furies, we have our colorful psychos.


    The Elemental Planes are a creation of the titans, a big pocket dimension to imprison Azeroths particularly volatile elementals.
    They don't exist outside of Azeroths sphere of Influence.
    Thank you for this

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would disagree on both the scores that Elune is unique, and that the circumscribed story from Chronicle and Legion, in addition to Shadowlands, had no effect or impact on Elune's concept. Elune doesn't have to be directly mentioned to be impacted - and the changes Chronicle dovetail nicely with those in Legion where it is revealed Elune is their likely progenitor and, to a degree, acts through them as her vehicle (which hearkens back to Velen's potential confusion of Elune being a naaru herself). That being said, neither Chronicle nor Shadowlands really perform a hard classification or its requisite diminishing of Elune - we still don't know her exact nature, and although we can infer a number of things about her we can't be sure if those inferences are necessarily fact. She's the sister of the Winter Queen, for example, but does that mean she's on the same relative tier as the Winter Queen as a former construct created in a Zereth dimension of her own, or that their "sisterhood" is a more metaphorical one owing to their shared natures and roles, albeit divided between Life and Death? It's still quite possible that Elune remains the universe's sole deity, as it were, and has an origin beyond what we've thus far inferred.

    Some speculation holds that Elune herself is one of the First Ones, perhaps the only of their number who opted to remain in creation to oversee and/or influence it. Elune may also be something completely unaccounted for in the designs of the First Ones - perhaps she is the product of the nebulous "seventh force" that exists outside the pattern, representing the will of life to be its own thing or somesuch. There's a lot of narrative wiggle room for Elune, in other words.
    Chronicle and Legion didn't change Elune except swap the context of her. If anything, it made her more otherworldly by not signing her up to any of the cosmic powers. Legion only alluded to a naaru origin that was already alluded to by way of Velen. What neither did was give her any canonical lines or concrete actions that had a direct, material effect and also didn't humanize her. She didn't have relations, lines, explicit emotions etc. She was divine in the classical sense. The only such force given that as of Chronicle absolutely every other participant had some kind of definable identity, motive and attributable actions. SL ditched this. She has a sister, she has dialogue, she has a major action she's involved in and that action was a fuck-up that failed. It's not a question of whether that fuck-up 'makes sense' given her available information or the setting introduced or even that the dialogue she has is boring. It's that all of these things exist and that she's now tied to an explicit 'tier' for her as a sibling of the Winter Queen. Elune's ignorance about the function of the afterlife in the detailed area precludes her from being a First One, and that's aside from her being a First One also being a bad move for other reasons. She's now tied to a specific origin - the mechanism of the Zereths, either directly because she was made in it or by virtue of being a sibling soul to the Winter Queen.

    Whatever Elune may go on to be and whatever retcons take place, she'll never be a Black Box again and this diminishes her. More than that, no story is made out of her being out of the box. The narrative glances over it without doing anything with it, taking a pointless and damaging turn to decades of mystique and then not even appending any pay-off to it. Making her a First One, besides just being incongruous, would actually be worse, because it'd then stretch that demystification over a tier higher. The main benefit of the First Ones is that they're the pure version of what the Titan content went after in places like Ulduar or with the Cata dragon reveal. Faceless demiurges mechanically imposing order into iterations of whatever they handle. Giving them faces, names and most of all retarded actions kills this and nullifies the point of their existence.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #56
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Elune's ignorance about the function of the afterlife in the detailed area precludes her from being a First One, and that's aside from her being a First One also being a bad move for other reasons. She's now tied to a specific origin - the mechanism of the Zereths, either directly because she was made in it or by virtue of being a sibling soul to the Winter Queen.
    Not necessarily - that precludes the notion that the designed function of Death is working according to the First Ones' designs, which as we're shown in Shadowlands isn't really the case. Elune could conceivably be a First One and not know that the machinery she had hand in designing had been broken by Zovaal, as she was counting on its normal operation like a builder would in most cases. It also presumes a kind of omniscience on the part of the First Ones, which they may well not possess - a First One would be exceedingly knowledgeable about how the metacosm works, by dint of having created it, but may not necessarily be conscious of third parties working to subvert that machinery from within. As for being tied to the Zereths, that's also equally unknown because you're assuming that the "sisterhood" of the Winter Queen and Elune isn't metaphorical in nature, which definitely a possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Whatever Elune may go on to be and whatever retcons take place, she'll never be a Black Box again and this diminishes her. More than that, no story is made out of her being out of the box. The narrative glances over it without doing anything with it, taking a pointless and damaging turn to decades of mystique and then not even appending any pay-off to it. Making her a First One, besides just being incongruous, would actually be worse, because it'd then stretch that demystification over a tier higher. The main benefit of the First Ones is that they're the pure version of what the Titan content went after in places like Ulduar or with the Cata dragon reveal. Faceless demiurges mechanically imposing order into iterations of whatever they handle. Giving them faces, names and most of all retarded actions kills this and nullifies the point of their existence.
    Nothing can remain a Black Box when it takes an active role in a given story, which kind of hearkens back to my original point. The only way to avoid this effect is not to use them, which relegates them to background lore in perpetuity. Not that I mind background lore at all, but beyond fleshing out a given story it doesn't and can't really do anything to further the story. The developers made the choice, for better or worse, to make Elune a part of the story - in doing that, she's going to have to go through the process of revelation, also for better or worse. Now it's just a matter of what they do with her, and everyone's subjective take on whether that makes for a good narrative or not.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not necessarily - that precludes the notion that the designed function of Death is working according to the First Ones' designs, which as we're shown in Shadowlands isn't really the case. Elune could conceivably be a First One and not know that the machinery she had hand in designing had been broken by Zovaal, as she was counting on its normal operation like a builder would in most cases. It also presumes a kind of omniscience on the part of the First Ones, which they may well not possess - a First One would be exceedingly knowledgeable about how the metacosm works, by dint of having created it, but may not necessarily be conscious of third parties working to subvert that machinery from within. As for being tied to the Zereths, that's also equally unknown because you're assuming that the "sisterhood" of the Winter Queen and Elune isn't metaphorical in nature, which definitely a possibility.
    SL's plot hinges on the First Ones predicting the entire course of events and planting plot devices that we use at core points in order to stop the on-going plan. They do this to iterate on the current design and eventually scrap it and start anew. See also Firim's notes from 9.2 on how they never intended the design to last, etc. That's not to say that Elune isn't one or that Blizzard won't change any of this at a whim, their willingness to dunk far more established godlike entities for the sake of strange plot turns is the premise of the discussion after all, but that at present we've no reason to think so. We've every reason to think Elune and the Winter Queen's sisterhood is as literal as it gets for demigod soul robots and that they occupy the same scheme and tend to each other, hence Elune fed-exing the WQ some souls and misplacing them in hell. The bottom line is she's a personality, canonical actions, relations and a heavily implied origin on the basis of those familial connections, none of which she had prior to the expansion, all of which make her a smaller figure.

    Nothing can remain a Black Box when it takes an active role in a given story, which kind of hearkens back to my original point. The only way to avoid this effect is not to use them, which relegates them to background lore in perpetuity. Not that I mind background lore at all, but beyond fleshing out a given story it doesn't and can't really do anything to further the story. The developers made the choice, for better or worse, to make Elune a part of the story - in doing that, she's going to have to go through the process of revelation, also for better or worse. Now it's just a matter of what they do with her, and everyone's subjective take on whether that makes for a good narrative or not.
    Elune didn't require to be in the forefront and gods acting through miracles is as bog-standard fantasy writing as it gets. Elune acted in Legion by raising Ysera to the stars and in Vanilla by turning that one satyr into a night elf, but she did so without any explanation as to how she did so, which power source she was connected to and without delivering any line. It's not only possible to have a Black Box feature in the story and be associated with events, with Elune it's been done and has been done for years longer than she's been her current strange, underexplored iteration. By giving her these things her prior features are abolished. Presumably you could argue for her current version, how I've no idea, but that her previous iteration has been effectively eliminated as an element of the setting is simple fact.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I wouldn't really use the terms "pantheon" or "gods" for 3D printed robots with room temperature IQs.
    The Titans might as well been created in just the same way.

    Here's the thing though. Without the Titans life wouldn't be as it is yet they are not the "Pantheon of Life". They are just the ones ordering life.

    Are they messing with things that's out of their jurisdiction? Do they even know?

    Sargeras apparently found out about the Void Lords and was terrified of them, implying he didn't know about them before. And yet the Winter Queen and Elune are "sisters" implying they are very well acquainted.

    The Void Lords go around spreading the Old Gods across the universe causing chaos and death, the Titans go around and mess with life as they see fit. Meanwhile Life and Death work in unison.

    Is it possible the Pantheon of Death and Life are privy to more of the First Ones secrets and are much more aware of things than the other Pantheons?

    What's the First Ones game?

  19. #59
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    39,761
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    SL's plot hinges on the First Ones predicting the entire course of events and planting plot devices that we use at core points in order to stop the on-going plan. They do this to iterate on the current design and eventually scrap it and start anew. See also Firim's notes from 9.2 on how they never intended the design to last, etc. That's not to say that Elune isn't one or that Blizzard won't change any of this at a whim, their willingness to dunk far more established godlike entities for the sake of strange plot turns is the premise of the discussion after all, but that at present we've no reason to think so. We've every reason to think Elune and the Winter Queen's sisterhood is as literal as it gets for demigod soul robots and that they occupy the same scheme and tend to each other, hence Elune fed-exing the WQ some souls and misplacing them in hell. The bottom line is she's a personality, canonical actions, relations and a heavily implied origin on the basis of those familial connections, none of which she had prior to the expansion, all of which make her a smaller figure.
    Elune had a definitive personality well before Shadowlands, as we knew she was a goddess devoted to peace and serenity, with associations of night, the moon, and so forth. Shadowlands is also far from the last time she's directly interceded in events, as well - she safeguarded Tyrande with an impassible shield of moonlight in The War of the Ancients trilogy, she disapproved of Goldrinn's warmongering and violence, and granted Jarod Shadowsong a vision of his departed wife Shalasyr on the occasion of her death, allowing them both to relieve the best moments of their lives together as a sort of goodbye before conducting her soul to the afterlife personally. As for the First Ones, Firim's own revelations demonstrate that their knowledge isn't omniscient in nature, as their design was itself finite, and we know it was subject to manipulation as Zovaal was successful in doing so in the first place. Whether or not Elune is a First One herself is more open to interpretation - I doubt it myself, but that also doesn't imply her sisterhood with the Winter Queen is the literal variety, nor does it imply that Elune and the Winter Queen are even the same order of being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Elune didn't require to be in the forefront and gods acting through miracles is as bog-standard fantasy writing as it gets. Elune acted in Legion by raising Ysera to the stars and in Vanilla by turning that one satyr into a night elf, but she did so without any explanation as to how she did so, which power source she was connected to and without delivering any line. It's not only possible to have a Black Box feature in the story and be associated with events, with Elune it's been done and has been done for years longer than she's been her current strange, underexplored iteration. By giving her these things her prior features are abolished. Presumably you could argue for her current version, how I've no idea, but that her previous iteration has been effectively eliminated as an element of the setting is simple fact.
    Depends on the nature of the miracle(s) in question, really. Her handling of Ysera is indeed one of the more general and far-reaching miracles you could credit her with, but as detailed above, she's also acted on an interpersonal level to safeguard her favorites like Tyrande, to give individuals gifts they didn't even ask for, and even chastised Wild Gods for acting out. Of course, you could make the same argument for all of WoW's demigod-tier characters when it comes to unexplained powers. How does the Primus invent the language of Domination in his spare time? How does Rezan create a shield of Light and then do some kind of spirit stomp to create wind to fill the sails of a Zandalari vessel? How did the Titans create life? I agree with the stance that you can have active characters be a Black Box feature, but then that's kind of obvious on its face when a character transitions from being a background lore element to an active element in the story. Elune used to be a background element, and now she's taking a somewhat more active role in the story - that is going to strip away some of her mystique as a matter of course, it's unavoidable. That's a choice that was made by the writers, for better or worse, as I said before.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    4,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I have been scoping the cosmos and I have found a star whose name is very similar to Elune's in World of Warcraft. It's Elnath-Beta Tauri. That star is a blue giant. I would laugh if Elune was an actual Tauren constellar, which is an actual zodiac constellation. The most hilarious thing about this is that it's located in between Orion (Rygelon) and Perseus (Algalon). I haven't found the Tauren lineage, but it would seem that Zandalari Trolls and Tauren are Azertoh's native species. Even Brann Bronzebeard believes that the tauren may ultimately be descended from an unknown bull Ancient, or some kind of animal spirit predating the Emerald Dream. Let's just wait till Azeroth wakes up, and it would appear to be a female cow. Oh my god!
    Elnath is just Taurus' second brightest star, with the brightest being Aldebaran. I doubt Blizzard really went that way with Elune. Specially being the second brightest.

    Also, Tauren are well of eternity modified descendants of the Yaungol
    Last edited by Maljinwo; 2022-08-19 at 01:38 PM.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •