What do you think pantheon of death and life are?

[Super Dickmann]

Definitely doesn't feel like a non-sequitur, it's pretty much what you strongly implied if not outright declared. For some reason, Elune's explicitly stated backstory should be entirely open to interpretation whereas the creation story of Chronicle Vol. 1 should be taken entirely literally. We don't "see" the act of the Warcraft universe's creation, either; it occurs entirely in the ancient past of the narrative. For some reason, you've arbitrarily decided a certain set of rules should apply to Elune and nowhere else, really. Elune was always "firmly a character," and nothing about Shadowlands changes that, despite your decision to relegate her to a different status for some reason.

This is a bafflingly retarded hill to die on. The Chronicle I story is delivered by the author, an out of story entity, it's objectively true in the standards of the setting until something else contradicts it. The Elune-Malorne story on the other hand is told in a mythical style. The author doesn't tell us that, objectively, the moon fucked a deer and made a centaur, but that there is an in-story tale of Elune being so fond of a Wild God it produced offspring. In either case we never see it in any material and it's akin to any deity blessing a particular creature, not a love story or what have you. The two have nothing to do with each other. As for your latter point, are you sure? Because not one post ago you were very certain that SL had changed her and had demystified her and were arguing about degree, now you've pivoted to SL not altering her. Which one is it? Because in the very next paragraph you'll once again have reverted to your previous stance.

Stand behind it all you like, doesn't make your stance anymore objective, much less correct. Elune, even as presented in Shadowlands, remains pretty far removed from "interchangeably human," even to the point we can't even be sure she has a physical form to speak of (since she speaks entirely through Tyrande). Perhaps you're confusing Tyrande's role here with Elune herself? That's the only way I can really see your stance above making internal sense. Beyond that, we've pretty much already hashed out that mythological deities are fully capable of having familial woes and can certainly lack omniscience. Your implication here is that anything aside from total opacity equates to Elune being essentially human, a position I both disagree with and feel lacks both nuance and consistency in your application. "Demystification" isn't a binary toggle where an entity is either entirely known or unknown, it's a process that a character goes through. Elune is only at the beginning of that process, nowhere near its end. In the entirety of WoW's run Elune's screentime probably comes down to a handful of minutes total, and in 20+ years of story, Elune has spoken a grand total of one time and has been seen in her true form exactly zero times. That's pretty far from complete mystical transparency in my view.

Regarding my stances, that they're correct is independent from them being my position. It's a big help though. The entire bit about Elune in your reply fails to address my point, though it does acknowledge a difference from her before and since, so we're at least making progress back towards your stance from a post ago. I'm well aware that there are different types of deities and Elune transitions from one sort of narrative entity to another, I say it outright in the post you're quoting, that in Shadowlands she goes from an oblique, abstract and mysterious deity outside of the context of the other powers, to defined and closer to the Greco-Roman pantheon, and that this both diminishes her earlier appearances and is a change of topic and direction. I don't know why you're even going on about whether she has a body, though it stands to reason she would as a counterpart to the Winter Queen who has one, but it doesn't really matter, she's still appearing as an avatar. Sargeras appearing through Medivh or as an avatar doesn't make him any less a physical actor or something that meshes with the abstract deity concept she occupied before SL. The entire bit about demystification not being a toggle is blase - I tell you the same thing and how the mystery left from Shadowlands is a significantly lessening of scope from the mystery that came before and why it renders Elune unfit for purpose in her prior role and her new role lacks in execution beyond just being a bad concept in failing to follow up on a consistent framing of 20 odd years.

[Aucald]

This is a bafflingly retarded hill to die on. The Chronicle I story is delivered by the author, an out of story entity, it's objectively true in the standards of the setting until something else contradicts it. The Elune-Malorne story on the other hand is told in a mythical style. The author doesn't tell us that, objectively, the moon fucked a deer and made a centaur, but that there is an in-story tale of Elune being so fond of a Wild God it produced offspring. In either case we never see it in any material and it's akin to any deity blessing a particular creature, not a love story or what have you. The two have nothing to do with each other. As for your latter point, are you sure? Because not one post ago you were very certain that SL had changed her and had demystified her and were arguing about degree, now you've pivoted to SL not altering her. Which one is it? Because in the very next paragraph you'll once again have reverted to your previous stance.

Where convincing rhetoric fails, insult should prevail, right? Both stories are delivered by an author since we are talking about a fantasy universe here - so I fail to see how that's relevant to your argument. Cenarius' parentage has been upheld both internally and externally by the developers, so again, you're dabbling in meaningless distinctions. I also never claimed that Shadowlands hadn't changed Elune, rather, I pointed out that it was the first time we've actually had her speak to us, albeit through an intermediary as a kind of prophet. Sure, you could say our argument here is one of degree - but that's underselling the degree to which you'd have Elune's mystique stripped away by a single encounter. Despite your attempts to strawman what I've said, my position on Elune hasn't changed at all in these exchanges - she's *beginning* a process of demystification, but she's not very far along it. In that regard, what we're arguing is essentially the difference between night and day, or perhaps more precisely, beginnings and endings.

Regarding my stances, that they're correct is independent from them being my position. It's a big help though. The entire bit about Elune in your reply fails to address my point, though it does acknowledge a difference from her before and since, so we're at least making progress back towards your stance from a post ago. I'm well aware that there are different types of deities and Elune transitions from one sort of narrative entity to another, I say it outright in the post you're quoting, that in Shadowlands she goes from an oblique, abstract and mysterious deity outside of the context of the other powers, to defined and closer to the Greco-Roman pantheon, and that this both diminishes her earlier appearances and is a change of topic and direction. I don't know why you're even going on about whether she has a body, though it stands to reason she would as a counterpart to the Winter Queen who has one, but it doesn't really matter, she's still appearing as an avatar. Sargeras appearing through Medivh or as an avatar doesn't make him any less a physical actor or something that meshes with the abstract deity concept she occupied before SL. The entire bit about demystification not being a toggle is blase - I tell you the same thing and how the mystery left from Shadowlands is a significantly lessening of scope from the mystery that came before and why it renders Elune unfit for purpose in her prior role and her new role lacks in execution beyond just being a bad concept in failing to follow up on a consistent framing of 20 odd years.

The fact that you're still mired in discussing Elune "transition[ing] from one sort of narrative entity to another" underscores that you're not really following what I've said, or you're conveniently ignoring an aspect of the argument detrimental to your own position, as is often the case. I'd argue we're not making much progress at all, really. I'd argue pretty strongly that an entity or character appearing as themselves, absent possession or working through an intermediary, is pretty much a basic requirement for them to be fully demystified. No, Sargeras working through an avatar, or via the possession of Medivh, isn't the same as Sargeras appearing in his true planet-sized Titan form at all. Ditto for Elune in the same regard. You also keep repeating that Shadowlands portrayal of Elune somehow makes her "unfit for purpose" in some prior role you've fabricated for her to have, but you're very vague on the purpose or exact substance of that role. Backstory, is it? The backstory is meant to provide fuel for further narrative and/or to enrich a narrative's world-building. There's nothing manifestly wrong with exploring elements of backstory to tell a story, either. You act as if characters like Sargeras, the Old Gods, or Elune are somehow sacrosanct and unavailable for exploration or further embellishment, which is a very odd position in my view. Sure, the quality of a story is in its telling, but if you forbid the telling outright then you can't have any new stories at all. Your basic thrust seems to be a desire to freeze the narrative in place for some reason and just stop any forward movement - which is an unrealistic expectation on its face, and to me feels like a strange kind of arbitrary gatekeeping at its root.

As per usual, I think we've pretty much said all that needs to be said at this point. Feel free to have the last word if you're inclined, though.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess it's all up for interpretation for now. Makes me wonder, what do you think the 7th power is? Do you think it could be a new design entire?

My current hypothesis is that the 7th power is reality itself, or the physical universe where we find Azeroth as a setting. A confluence of the 6 "pure" essences, and an unexpected combined result which can somehow interfere with and/or fundamentally change how the engine of creation functions.

[Combatbutler]

My current hypothesis is that the 7th power is reality itself, or the physical universe where we find Azeroth as a setting. A confluence of the 6 "pure" essences, and an unexpected combined result which can somehow interfere with and/or fundamentally change how the engine of creation functions.

Considering blizz cheap line about a greater enemy, it wouldn't be surprising it would be the remnants of the true original universe, trying to tear down all the shit the first ones have build.

[Mace]

or as an avatar doesn't make him any less a physical actor or something that meshes with the abstract deity concept she occupied before SL. The entire bit about demystification not being a toggle is blase - I tell you the same thing and how the mystery left from Shadowlands is a significantly lessening of scope from the mystery that came before and why it renders Elune unfit for purpose in her prior role and her new role lacks in execution beyond just being a bad concept in failing to follow up on a consistent framing of 20 odd years.

Oh it is the inconsistency I hate the most about things.

I get trying to improve your story but sheesh, can’t they maintain the same level or way they introduced things?

It’s so annoying because they sell you a fantasy which causes you to buy, or worse fall in love with a thing, then they change that thing or reframe it, except, the majority of the time, it’s a lesser and weaker version.

In bringing more detail and revelation they don’t seem to care about what they did before and don’t seem to understand why changing it like that is bad.

This is not like gameplay changes when you have to nerf an over buffed class - it’s toying with our hearts and changing in a way that makes their work feel flaky and inconsistent or duplicitous.

I don’t trust anything they release now to like it or get into their lore, because I know they would ruin it ie change it for the worse or in ways that just suck.

They seem to think this is fine if they understood it wasn’t they would have hashed out their new conceptsn ihhout altering their earlier ones.

I don’t buy Warcraft books anymore because of how much shit they change.

Now I know they don’t do this a lot, but entities like Elune, racial groups like might elved they obliterated between Wc3 and Wow are chief examples.

Can you tell me they could not have wrote trolls better or the Death Pantheon and First Ones without once again re framing and re writing things in a way that makes you feel you got cheated.

What’s the point in getting invested when it all goes up on the air and it doesn’t settle.

The only race change I actually thought was good were the Draenei, they kept the original evil and power of the Eredar and coined something new that was good worth out destroying the original Draenei that they now fleshed out

[Houle]

That's just their bodies. The consciousness inside them are celestial beings.

thats some nice headcanon, but no. its literally robots with a bit of magic. there sneve rbeen any confirmation that they are celestial beings forced into a body.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

thats some nice headcanon, but no. its literally robots with a bit of magic. there sneve rbeen any confirmation that they are celestial beings forced into a body.

Well, they are composed of celestial body fragments. Our existence lies within the fabric of the universe.

[Aucald]

thats some nice headcanon, but no. its literally robots with a bit of magic. there sneve rbeen any confirmation that they are celestial beings forced into a body.

During the final quests of the Zereth Mortis zone story, at the Crypts of the Eternal, the Arbiter's vessel is being filled with what Saezurah refers to as the "essences of ancient souls," which are necessary to actualize this new Arbiter. One of the Automa Scryers is then revealed to be a Nathrezim infiltrator, who declares that the conjured shade of Argus "shall take this vessel," and that "Argus will be Eternal" implying that the attempt was to implant this new Arbiter vessel with the soul of the fallen Titan Argus instead of the ancient essences required by Saezurah. After both Argus and the ancient souls are apparently expended in failure, Pelagos offers up his own soul to empower the Arbiter, leading to the final result.

Presumably, the Eternal Ones are akin to the Arbiter both as fabricated beings given form by a similar process, meaning that either ancient soul essence or the spirit of a willing individual was expended in order for them to become what they are.

[Houle]

During the final quests of the Zereth Mortis zone story, at the Crypts of the Eternal, the Arbiter's vessel is being filled with what Saezurah refers to as the "essences of ancient souls," which are necessary to actualize this new Arbiter. One of the Automa Scryers is then revealed to be a Nathrezim infiltrator, who declares that the conjured shade of Argus "shall take this vessel," and that "Argus will be Eternal" implying that the attempt was to implant this new Arbiter vessel with the soul of the fallen Titan Argus instead of the ancient essences required by Saezurah. After both Argus and the ancient souls are apparently expended in failure, Pelagos offers up his own soul to empower the Arbiter, leading to the final result.

Presumably, the Eternal Ones are akin to the Arbiter both as fabricated beings given form by a similar process, meaning that either ancient soul essence or the spirit of a willing individual was expended in order for them to become what they are.

yeah, but "ancient soul essence" aka "old anima" doesnt make them any different. its not like they are ancient spirit beings, who just got bound to a robotic body. they robotic bodies, who are given life and power with soul magic/essence. theres a considerable difference there.

[Aucald]

yeah, but "ancient soul essence" aka "old anima" doesnt make them any different. its not like they are ancient spirit beings, who just got bound to a robotic body. they robotic bodies, who are given life and power with soul magic/essence. theres a considerable difference there.

Different enough to be stored in a specific place, called a different name, and once expended put everyone assembled at a complete loss as to what can be done until Pelagos volunteers his own soul - going to show that the essence needed for the vessel isn't plain old anima they could just truck in from somewhere else, but rather a rarified substance. Calling the Eternal Ones and/or the Arbiters "robots" is also a gross oversimplification - as can easily be seen from their portrayals they're fully sentient with disparate and unique personalities, fully humanoid, even to the point of being psychologically flawed (e.g. prideful, stubborn, wrathful, etc.) Having a synthetic origin doesn't make them tantamount to machines any more than IVF renders someone non-human in real life.

[olddog]

Mass-produced, 3d-printed, powerful robots.