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  1. #1

    Messed timelines to the max?

    When the Titans showed Nozdormu his own death that fucked him up right?

    My question is what Future he saw? Since he will die as Murozond he could never die as another one.

    So the Titans showed him something that will never happen.

    You can’t also argue that Nozdormu changed that, because the Titans seeing the future would also see that he will change after showing him

    So what’s going on with this ?

    Who also does not believe the Titans can see the future? Why would they see the Future of the Light or the Void or „Reality „ knowing the future would make you allways 1 step ahead.

    But that Nozdormu thing doesnt make sense

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    When the Titans showed Nozdormu his own death that fucked him up right?
    Not directly, no. The closest thing we have to linking those is the dungeon journal in End Time saying that "Nozdormu was tricked by the Old Gods into trying to subvert his mortality."

    My question is what Future he saw? Since he will die as Murozond he could never die as another one.
    When you kill Murozond in End Time, Nozdormu explicitly says that was the death the Titans showed him:

    "At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm. Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes."

  3. #3
    Legion and Shadowlands provided information on how the different cosmological forces interact with time.

    The Void has been stated to be able to view all possibility's.
    While the Light only see's what it considers the one true timeline. (I may need correction on this fact)

    If any of the other forces have been explained, I have failed to find the information. But with the examples provided I assume that the other cosmic forces Interact with time in unique ways.

    I assume that Aman'Thul showed Nozdormu only the Order viewpoint of the timeline.

    The Bronze Leader was shown what the Titan's wanted him to see, why? Well that's for us to find out. Either that or the Old gods have to be alive in some form to still corrupt him.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by boots1991 View Post
    Legion and Shadowlands provided information on how the different cosmological forces interact with time.

    The Void has been stated to be able to view all possibility's.
    While the Light only see's what it considers the one true timeline. (I may need correction on this fact)

    If any of the other forces have been explained, I have failed to find the information. But with the examples provided I assume that the other cosmic forces Interact with time in unique ways.

    I assume that Aman'Thul showed Nozdormu only the Order viewpoint of the timeline.

    The Bronze Leader was shown what the Titan's wanted him to see, why? Well that's for us to find out. Either that or the Old gods have to be alive in some form to still corrupt him.
    I mean, even if we (wrongly) assume that all the Old Gods are physically 100% dead, no tricks and illusions involved, we know that the Old Gods are still active anyway in the Void. Since they are Cosmic beings of the Void, when their bodies are destroyed in the physical plane, their spirits return to the Void to be reformed. So they can still manipulate Nozdormu and usher in his doom from the Void, by whispering to his mind.

    But, of course, we know that one Old God (Yogg-Saron) is confirmed to still be active in Azeroth, as his whispers could be heard in Ulduar in Legion.

    Perhaps Yogg-Saron will reveal himself to be the main villain of Dragonflight, and usher in Nozdormu's turn into Murozond?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    When the Titans showed Nozdormu his own death that fucked him up right?

    My question is what Future he saw? Since he will die as Murozond he could never die as another one.

    So the Titans showed him something that will never happen.

    You can’t also argue that Nozdormu changed that, because the Titans seeing the future would also see that he will change after showing him

    So what’s going on with this ?

    Who also does not believe the Titans can see the future? Why would they see the Future of the Light or the Void or „Reality „ knowing the future would make you allways 1 step ahead.

    But that Nozdormu thing doesnt make sense
    Of course Nozdormu didn't change anything. He straight up says when you kill Murozond that one day he will become Murozond and we heroes will slay him. He's accepted it.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    When the Titans showed Nozdormu his own death that fucked him up right?

    My question is what Future he saw? Since he will die as Murozond he could never die as another one.

    So the Titans showed him something that will never happen.

    You can’t also argue that Nozdormu changed that, because the Titans seeing the future would also see that he will change after showing him

    So what’s going on with this ?

    Who also does not believe the Titans can see the future? Why would they see the Future of the Light or the Void or „Reality „ knowing the future would make you allways 1 step ahead.

    But that Nozdormu thing doesnt make sense
    To quote a certain unrepentant dead orc: "Times change.".
    That's the joy of timetravel shenanigans: The impossible becomes possible.
    Murloc Azeroth? We're going there, you better believe it.

    The titans merely order stuff, the light forcefully chooses its path, the void walks all at once, just to see where they end.
    Just last expansion N'zoth's plot pretty much boiled down to him trying to merge his artificial alternate timeline with reality in order to instantly win.

    Murozond is much less limited; he can try again infinitely, since Murozond knows all his past self's thoughts and more he can always outsmart himself. Especially with the aid of the void.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Nozdormu was made the keeper of the timeways of Azeroth, and part of that role given to him apparently so he understood the gravity of his role was knowledge of his own inevitable end. Nozdormu, as well as us as of the End Time instance, knows that his fate is to become corrupted into Murozond and be slaughtered by us with the assistance of his past self. It is essentially a stable time loop, and it will come to pass because it's already come to pass via our time travel shenanigans. Nozdormu has basically only to wait until he gets corrupted via whatever it is that finally does so, then he will travel to the End Time and wait for us to arrive from his and our own relative pasts to put him to the sword. Barring further manipulation of the timeline, it's basically a guaranteed death - although, with time travel and alternate continuities, anything remains possible.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Nozdormu was made the keeper of the timeways of Azeroth, and part of that role given to him apparently so he understood the gravity of his role was knowledge of his own inevitable end. Nozdormu, as well as us as of the End Time instance, knows that his fate is to become corrupted into Murozond and be slaughtered by us with the assistance of his past self. It is essentially a stable time loop, and it will come to pass because it's already come to pass via our time travel shenanigans. Nozdormu has basically only to wait until he gets corrupted via whatever it is that finally does so, then he will travel to the End Time and wait for us to arrive from his and our own relative pasts to put him to the sword. Barring further manipulation of the timeline, it's basically a guaranteed death - although, with time travel and alternate continuities, anything remains possible.
    So the Titans showed Nozdormu, that he die being Murozond?

    To prevent that he turns to Murozond?

    Doesnt make sense

  9. #9
    I think a good general rule to follow is that if a story includes time travel or alternate dimensions, there is no point trying to make sense of it since the entire premise is illogical.

  10. #10
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    So the Titans showed Nozdormu, that he die being Murozond?

    To prevent that he turns to Murozond?

    Doesnt make sense
    He has no choice but to become Murozond now - it's his fate, and he's accepted that it's so. He can't prevent or avert it, that's what knowing his future and the moment of his death means. The price he paid for being able to manipulate the timeways and oversee time itself was knowledge of his own fate.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    He has no choice but to become Murozond now - it's his fate, and he's accepted that it's so. He can't prevent or avert it, that's what knowing his future and the moment of his death means. The price he paid for being able to manipulate the timeways and oversee time itself was knowledge of his own fate.
    Wow! Allways when you mess with time people got confused!

    Curious if they will just use some time magic from Murozond to change someor bring someone back.

    It’s just to tempting to mess with Time!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    It’s just to tempting to mess with Time!
    Which is precisely why Aman'thul showed Nozdormu how and when he would die.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Which is precisely why Aman'thul showed Nozdormu how and when he would die.
    But didn’t this is why, Murozond is a thing? Thought he transformed to Murozond to prevent what Titan’s showed him

  14. #14
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    But didn’t this is why, Murozond is a thing? Thought he transformed to Murozond to prevent what Titan’s showed him
    We don't really know why he is corrupted into Murozond, really. It's assumed that it's an attempt to escape his fate, which is of course destined to fail - but either fear overrides his reason eventually he makes a desperate move to try to stay alive, or he's corrupted by a third party and its not his choice (and, post-corruption, tries vainly to stay alive even though he knows it's futile).

    When we kill Murozond he makes a comment about what he's seen, but that doesn't necessarily mean or imply that what he saw necessarily led to the transformation itself.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    We don't really know why he is corrupted into Murozond, really. It's assumed that it's an attempt to escape his fate, which is of course destined to fail - but either fear overrides his reason eventually he makes a desperate move to try to stay alive, or he's corrupted by a third party and its not his choice (and, post-corruption, tries vainly to stay alive even though he knows it's futile).

    When we kill Murozond he makes a comment about what he's seen, but that doesn't necessarily mean or imply that what he saw necessarily led to the transformation itself.
    Perhaps Murozond conjured a time pocket to hide himself from the true End Time (perhaps the Void or some other cosmic power destroying everything). That being said, I thought it was a common theme of Warcraft to break free from the chains of fate and destiny or something. It would be really interesting if Nozdormu broke free from his eventual fate, perhaps with the help of the mortals or the Dragon Isles.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Idk...its more convoluted then the Grandfather paradox so I generally just ignore it, its definitely some kind of Paradox though

  17. #17
    It might be that Nozdormu has to take a bullet for the team and be corrupted instead of someone else. Thus turning to Murozond and yet averting a worse outcome for azeroth.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Universalgirl View Post
    But didn’t this is why, Murozond is a thing? Thought he transformed to Murozond to prevent what Titan’s showed him
    The dungeon journal that says that also says he was tricked into it by the Old Gods. They're not exactly known for inducing rational behavior.

  19. #19
    What if, just what if.

    We find a way to split Murozond & Nozdormu. Where they become two entities. Where one can die without affecting to other. We kill Murozond and we free Nozdormu of the burden that he will became evil at one point.

    Since in Cata the dragonflights lost most of there powers. He might not be able to predict to far ahead future any more. This might also be the reason he goes mad in the first place tho.

  20. #20
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Perhaps Murozond conjured a time pocket to hide himself from the true End Time (perhaps the Void or some other cosmic power destroying everything). That being said, I thought it was a common theme of Warcraft to break free from the chains of fate and destiny or something. It would be really interesting if Nozdormu broke free from his eventual fate, perhaps with the help of the mortals or the Dragon Isles.
    That's kind of the takeaway based on the dialogue, where he refers to the End Time instance as a "blessing" compared to a "true End Time" that we have apparently yet to witness. I don't think Nozdormu's fate is necessarily unavoidable given additional time travel shenanigans, though; even if Nozdormu himself seems resigned to it. Nozdormu has also shown that despite his Titan-granted ability to perceive time, its many nuances sometimes escape him - so there is also the possibility that his future, while unavoidable, may also not be quite as final as either he or we perceive it to be.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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