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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    For instance I really like shifting power mechanically and visually it looks cool, but why on earth is a mage, a master of the arcane, conjuring spirits and druid magic as part of the penultimate abilities?
    You can just not take that talent /shrug. I'm certainly not going to bother, NF hasn't been the best fire mage covenant in a long time, and I don't expect that to change in DF.
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    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    NF hasn't been the best fire mage covenant in a long time, and I don't expect that to change in DF.
    It's still the best dungeon Covenant, I'm pretty sure. Venthyr is only better in raids.

  3. #23
    Outside of Death Knight, Druid and Priest, covenant abilities do not fit.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    Idk if there's already a thread on just this topic but I really dislike the idea of permanently having covenant abilities baked into our talent tree toolkits.

    NOT because they're bad, but because visually and flavor text wise they don't make any sense.

    For instance I really like shifting power mechanically and visually it looks cool, but why on earth is a mage, a master of the arcane, conjuring spirits and druid magic as part of the penultimate abilities?

    Idk it just doesn't sit with me. I'm sure someone can devil's advocate support for this somehow but I will never feel comfortable with it or feel it fits.
    I agree that they should be re-named. Say my Paladin was Venthyr, even uses the transmog, title and what not - yet ends up picking the Bastion Bell covenant power, which is still named after Bastion and retains the flavor text - which is just off.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's the same as Legion Artifact Weapon traits. The devs liked the functionality of some of the Covenant abilities/traits so now they're baseline.
    There's a difference though. Artifact skills fit the class, Covenant skills fit the Covenants. And I find it a bit problematic, too, that stuff like Bonedust Brew or Primordial Wave - while being great skills - is now part of the baseline toolkit. Especially considering that a Monk and Shaman now deals Shadow damage. It's just not their class fantasy.
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  6. #26
    Yeah I agree. When I play a Paladin I want to feel like a Paladin. I don’t want to lose that immersion because of BIS talent. It’s understandable during the expansions but to have it permanently isn’t good. It doesn’t feel tied to a faction your working with anymore. If it’s a fresh character they may never even stepped into the Shadowlands once.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    Idk if there's already a thread on just this topic but I really dislike the idea of permanently having covenant abilities baked into our talent tree toolkits.

    NOT because they're bad, but because visually and flavor text wise they don't make any sense.

    For instance I really like shifting power mechanically and visually it looks cool, but why on earth is a mage, a master of the arcane, conjuring spirits and druid magic as part of the penultimate abilities?

    Idk it just doesn't sit with me. I'm sure someone can devil's advocate support for this somehow but I will never feel comfortable with it or feel it fits.
    Agreed.
    They should just do something like "in emulation of the powers gifted by the covenants of the Shadowlands the mages have devised a similar arcane spell".

    And let's be honest: They have done this before with artefact powers; warbreaker is no longer void-tinged but it is pretty similar to the one granted by the artefact.
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  8. #28
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    Well, at least this time they have understood that losing cool, useful abilities because they were just borrowed power sucks donkey balls. It's a good start, folks!

    But visually (re)theming those skills with something as simple as a glyph, so that it better matches the class' theme (in the many cases where it doesn't)? Sorry, we don't do that here at Blizzard.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    For instance I really like shifting power mechanically and visually it looks cool, but why on earth is a mage, a master of the arcane, conjuring spirits and druid magic as part of the penultimate abilities?
    Because you went to the shadowlands and have permantly brought power with you from them.
    thats literally it.


    "I went to mcdonalds and got a burger, then i went home and had a mcdonalds burger, WHY IS A MCDONALDS BURGER IN MY HOUSE, ITS NOT A MCDONALDS!?"

  10. #30
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    I actually wish we had MORE integration of the covenant abilities.

    I want Ancient Aftershock for Warriors back, even if it's a boring ability compared to the other Warrior ones.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's the same as Legion Artifact Weapon traits. The devs liked the functionality of some of the Covenant abilities/traits so now they're baseline.
    And as always the Abillitys i like dont get baked into normal talents, just the one i disliked.

    Like MW monks, i really wish to have the artifact on use effect as a talent (thru healing u spawn clouds, u can use clouds to heal something for 0 mana. More Clouds = more Healing). And now they get Nightfae, Kyrian and Nekro Covenants as talent, but noch venthyr.

    sad.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because you went to the shadowlands and have permantly brought power with you from them.
    thats literally it.


    "I went to mcdonalds and got a burger, then i went home and had a mcdonalds burger, WHY IS A MCDONALDS BURGER IN MY HOUSE, ITS NOT A MCDONALDS!?"
    To your point about every playable character having to accept that all of them are the chosen one that fixed the shadow lands, are you telling me every playable character also all killed the lich king, lei shen, ragnaros, al akir, archimond, death wing, etc.?

    Why is this principle only applied to this specific thing?

    It really just makes no class lore sense for a mage, a studied academically trained practitioner of magical arts in specific schools, to just use random druid magic stylized with flowers and ghost effects. How many expansions does this last for? How long will it be baked into mage class fantasy?

    I'd also appreciate it if maybe you toned down putting capslock in my mouth to make me appear like I'm arguing from the point of a child. But that's up to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You can just not take that talent /shrug. I'm certainly not going to bother, NF hasn't been the best fire mage covenant in a long time, and I don't expect that to change in DF.
    Shifting power is currently best option for fm from what I've seen. I also honestlt enjoy using it. But I'm not sure shadow lands application of the ability is what I'm really talking about. Also, this isn't just about shifting power. It's about all covenant abilities moving forward.
    Last edited by Magistrate; 2022-08-18 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire SynDethroc's Avatar
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    I agree; I mean, I REALLY like the fact that we still have access to some of the cooler covenant abilities (Flagellation, Decimating Bolt, Abomination Limb, etc.), but I think some of their visual effects, names, descriptions, and, in some cases, damage types should be altered to better fit with their respective class fantasy -- Shifting Power for Mages, Faeline Stomp for Monks, and Blessing of the Seasons for Paladins are some examples of abilities that are neat, but don't really make sense without being part of the Night Fae covenant.

    Basically, the context of these spells and abilities could use some tweaking now that we, the players, are no longer in the Shadowlands.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    To your point about every playable character having to accept that all of them are the chosen one that fixed the shadow lands, are you telling me every playable character also all killed the lich king, lei shen, ragnaros, al akir, archimond, death wing, etc.?

    Why is this principle only applied to this specific thing?

    It really just makes no class lore sense for a mage, a studied academically trained practitioner of magical arts in specific schools, to just use random druid magic stylized with flowers and ghost effects. How many expansions does this last for? How long will it be baked into mage class fantasy?

    I'd also appreciate it if maybe you toned down putting capslock in my mouth to make me appear like I'm arguing from the point of a child. But that's up to you.
    This really does seem like a case where you're upset that the devs have disagreed with whatever headcanon you've developed as an acceptable spell for your WoW character to cast. And even though your personal concerns are valid, ultimately this isn't a choice that you get to make and no amount of argumentation from anybody on this forum will be able to rationalize a development decision which was made without your consultation.

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This really does seem like a case where you're upset that the devs have disagreed with whatever headcanon you've developed as an acceptable spell for your WoW character to cast. And even though your personal concerns are valid, ultimately this isn't a choice that you get to make and no amount of argumentation from anybody on this forum will be able to rationalize a development decision which was made without your consultation.
    I don't think it unreasonable that people prefer Blizzard to stick to the very logic and rules that they established themselves. If they're bent or broken on a regular basis, they may as well not exist. And if they may as well not even exist, you've lost the internal consistency of your universe. And if your universe has no internal consistency, there is no reason to get invested in the world since that investment is not rewarded.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I don't think it unreasonable that people prefer Blizzard to stick to the very logic and rules that they established themselves. If they're bent or broken on a regular basis, they may as well not exist. And if they may as well not even exist, you've lost the internal consistency of your universe. And if your universe has no internal consistency, there is no reason to get invested in the world since that investment is not rewarded.
    My guy, we're slaying internet dragons for imaginary loot. I don't think there's any "internal consistency" other than some people feeling like some spells either do or do not match whatever they feel is appropriate. And that's fine, but at the end of the day it's ultimately up to the developers to make these kinds of decisions. Personally, I think if the gameplay for the particular talent is acceptable then I give approximately zero fucks about what Blizzard adds to a class' toolkit. I'd imagine most players are like me which is why Blizzard isn't going to come out with elaborate explanations to satiate the whims of players with limited imagination who reject their classes' new ability.

    It's like @FelPlague said. We went to Shadowlands. Our characters kept some stuff with us from our ventures in Shadowlands. That's it.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    My guy, we're slaying internet dragons for imaginary loot. I don't think there's any "internal consistency" other than some people feeling like some spells either do or do not match whatever they feel is appropriate. And that's fine, but at the end of the day it's ultimately up to the developers to make these kinds of decisions. Personally, I think if the gameplay for the particular talent is acceptable then I give approximately zero fucks about what Blizzard adds to a class' toolkit. I'd imagine most players are like me which is why Blizzard isn't going to come out with elaborate explanations to satiate the whims of players with limited imagination who reject their classes' new ability.

    It's like @FelPlague said. We went to Shadowlands. Our characters kept some stuff with us from our ventures in Shadowlands. That's it.
    Every universe has internal consistency, regardless of how fantastic or "unrealistic" the setting is. The universe does not need to obey our rules - it does need to obey its own. And it's fine to not care about these kinds of things. I don't see why you need to belittle the people that do care about them, though.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Every universe has internal consistency, regardless of how fantastic or "unrealistic" the setting is. The universe does not need to obey our rules - it does need to obey its own. And it's fine to not care about these kinds of things. I don't see why you need to belittle the people that do care about them, though.
    The developers choose those rules not the players. If a player wants to reject the developers' intentions, that's fine. But the developer shouldn't be beholden to every silly complaint players have about a consistency which exists only in that individual's imagination.

  19. #39
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The developers choose those rules not the players. If a player wants to reject the developers' intentions, that's fine. But the developer shouldn't be beholden to every silly complaint players have about a consistency which exists only in that individual's imagination.
    Yes, they have the power to choose and change the rules. And the power to break those rules. That doesn't mean that those rules do not, or should not, exist.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Yes, they have the power to choose and change the rules. And the power to break those rules. That doesn't mean that those rules do not, or should not, exist.
    Again, you're arguing for "consistency of rules" but these rules are completely at the whim of individual players. The only rules that actually matter are the ones the devs give us. And if their reasoning (we went to the Shadowlands and brought some of it back with us) is good enough for them then it should be good enough for us.

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