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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I don't think it unreasonable that people prefer Blizzard to stick to the very logic and rules that they established themselves. If they're bent or broken on a regular basis, they may as well not exist. And if they may as well not even exist, you've lost the internal consistency of your universe. And if your universe has no internal consistency, there is no reason to get invested in the world since that investment is not rewarded.
    The problem here is that you are appealing to internal consistency that does not agree with your conclusion.

    Warcraft has never been a setting where each character type is isolated and cannot borrow power from anywhere else. Mages were already pseudo shamanistic by virtue of two of their three schools being elemental magic types conjured through arcane construction. Mages are also prone to learning from and tapping into any other school of magic they have access to and think would be worthwhile--many mages have had no problems dipping their fingers into Fel magic, or death magic, or void magic. You have modern rogues tapping into shadow/void magic constantly, and historical rogues tapping into spirit magic and shadow magic; you have priests historically tapping into all sorts of secondary magic; druids have from day one also been able to tap into arcane magic via astral spells; warriors have been dabbling in elemental magic since WC3, warlocks have always been masters of not just fel magic, but also raw elemental fire and also void magic, hunters have always used nature magic, arcane magic, dabbled in elemental magic, monks are able to channel elemental magic, spirit magic, and nature magic.

    A mage who has gone to the realm of death, been taught how to use anima and death/spirit magic a bit and comes back to Azeroth realizing that the anima method of redirecting energy flow a la Shifting Power is useful and continuing to tap into that learned knowledge is entirely internally consistent. No rules are being bent or broken.

  2. #42
    They are actually doing this with Death Chakram so hopefully they expand on it.

    https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...29540684255232

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This really does seem like a case where you're upset that the devs have disagreed with whatever headcanon you've developed as an acceptable spell for your WoW character to cast. And even though your personal concerns are valid, ultimately this isn't a choice that you get to make and no amount of argumentation from anybody on this forum will be able to rationalize a development decision which was made without your consultation.
    Time and time again dev decisions will be affected by what the playerbase is vocal about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    But if they read the terrain like I do instead of going off of personal desires then they'd understand and wouldn't get their jimmies rustled. Again, I have no intention of maining a tinker, I just know with 100% certainty that they're wow's next playable class. It's so God damn obvious all things considered.

    If that triggers people then oh well.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Therougetitan View Post
    They are actually doing this with Death Chakram so hopefully they expand on it.

    https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...29540684255232


    Time and time again dev decisions will be affected by what the playerbase is vocal about.
    And time and time again this playerbase is vocal about the stupidest nonsense. I wish the devs would be more consistent in telling us to fuck off and deal with it.

  4. #44
    While it's clear that some people don't agree with your stance, I definitely do agree with you.

    A lot of these abilities feel really strange with some classes randomly dealing nature damage when they've never done so before.

    I'm also not a huge fan of all the bloat we have in these classes now. So many legendary and Azerite powers are part of the talent trees, and many active abilities are as well.

    My favorite talent trees to look at out of all the classes is the Evoker so far because it's not filled with legendary powers, set bonuses, and borrowed power items that are brought back as talents.

    A lot of the stuff that was supposed to be borrowed power was rather annoying and cumbersome to use. At the time, it wasn't really an issue because it was expected to be temporary. Even stuff like set bonuses had this effect sometimes where you might not have enjoyed a particular playstyle that a set bonus offered, but it wouldn't matter as that set bonus would go away later.

    Now, a lot of this stuff is baked into the class talent tree and it doesn't feel right to me. There's a lot of weird micromanagement that has to be done with the base classes now. I guess that's just the way that Blizzard wants the game to be, and I should accept that I really dislike it I guess and move on, but it's a shame to see how much fun I've been having with Classic/TBC/and already know I will be having with Wrath. I just want retail to offer that same experience, but it hasn't done so since Legion launched.

  5. #45
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    To your point about every playable character having to accept that all of them are the chosen one that fixed the shadow lands, are you telling me every playable character also all killed the lich king, lei shen, ragnaros, al akir, archimond, death wing, etc.?
    Yes, we literally did, because we are the hero, we took part in all of those, because all the players take roles as one of the "heros"
    that has literally been true since like what, wotlk, tbc? when they started referencing us as having been someone who did something.


    and again its not druid magic, idk why you keep thinking "druid magic druid magic druid magic" when it has NOTHING to do with druid, it is ardenweald. nevermind the fact yes, literally, mages learn arcane spells, the same type of magic some druids use.

    it does make sense, it makes no sense to you, that is it.
    and hopefully forever, same way warlocks literally unlocked elemental power from the cataclysm to learn new abilities, and even had an entire fucking questline about it called the green fire quest line, explaining where spells like cataclysm came from, which was literally from killing powerful enemies and using their powers to enhance your own, ragnaros the firelord for example.

    You are arguing from the point of a child, cause you fail to realize simple concepts of object permanence, something children don't have.

    We went to the shadowlands, we are keeping power from there, just like how we kept power from the azerite necklace, from the legion artifact, from draenor, from pandaria, from the cataclysm, from the destruction of the lich king, from the purging of outland, and from the protection of azeroth. All of our pasts have given our charecters power, and new abilities, which have expanded their ability.


    Since when were warlcoks about TURNING INTO demons? Never right? Yet when wotlk came out, warlocks suddenly could turn into demons like demon hunters, because they brought that power with them from the purging of outland.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    I'm fine with the functionality but strongly wish they didn't dictate in the flavor text that I'm basically a shaman now.
    I agree with the concern. Artifact abilities played to the specs fantasy well, they can stay. Covanant powers were augmenting us with different sources--felt okay in Shadowlands, weird beyond it.

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    A mage who has gone to the realm of death, been taught how to use anima and death/spirit magic a bit and comes back to Azeroth realizing that the anima method of redirecting energy flow a la Shifting Power is useful and continuing to tap into that learned knowledge is entirely internally consistent. No rules are being bent or broken.
    That's fine. But not every Mage will have gone to the Shadowlands. Now the rule is bent.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    Idk if there's already a thread on just this topic but I really dislike the idea of permanently having covenant abilities baked into our talent tree toolkits.

    NOT because they're bad, but because visually and flavor text wise they don't make any sense.
    feel it fits.
    I don't understand the issue. Before my current job, I was a plumber. On the job, I picked up some carpentry, electrical and tile skills. I learned them through experience (like our characters with the covenant).

    Should I not install lighting because it looks strange the a plumber is working with wires? Does it not fit the "theme" of a plumber?

    Experience is always the best teacher. Our characters learned those abilities through our trials in the Shadowlands. We actually earnedthose abilities and they are more legit than anything learned in a book because experience was the teacher.

    Why do you think we should not be able to use them or they should be taken away?

  9. #49
    I agree, some are just off, but others (like Wild Spirits) are just fine as they fit with the class.

    But nothing that cannot be changed by some simple renaming and slightly updated visuals. In your example call it arcane charging, give it a larger evo animation and add some sparkles or whatever.

    But it's nothing I see any priority in dealing with, just some thing that can be updated in some later patches.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    That's fine. But not every Mage will have gone to the Shadowlands. Now the rule is bent.
    Not even a little? "My headcanon is that my mage only hangs out in a tavern in Stormwind, so it doesn't make sense that my kit is being expanded" is not somehow a counter to what spells are available to playable mages. All current existing player mages are canonically assumed to have been to the Shadowlands, all future player mages will learn about anima manipulation by virtue of it being in the common pool of knowledge.

    Again, mages have been fucking around with death magic since WC3.

    The only rules being bent here are the ones you made up in your head.

  11. #51
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    All current existing player mages are canonically assumed to have been to the Shadowlands
    Now who is spouting headcanon as fact?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Now who is spouting headcanon as fact?
    I get that you're trying to save face, but this isn't the way to do it and you're only digging the hole deeper.

    That's not headcanon, the game makes this canonical assumption of participation frequently. Admiral Taylor in WoD talks about how you and he fighting orcs 'like old times', with the canonical assumption that your player character went to Pandaria and helped him in the quests there. When you play through Bastion, the quest that involves fighting memories assumes (by random spawn) that your character has participated in multiple expansions. And again mages have been using these sorts of powers for forever, so going or not going is largely irrelevant when it's a magic type mages have been using for decades and other mages have gone and come back with more specific information.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I get that you're trying to save face, but this isn't the way to do it and you're only digging the hole deeper.

    That's not headcanon, the game makes this canonical assumption of participation frequently. Admiral Taylor in WoD talks about how you and he fighting orcs 'like old times', with the canonical assumption that your player character went to Pandaria and helped him in the quests there. When you play through Bastion, the quest that involves fighting memories assumes (by random spawn) that your character has participated in multiple expansions. And again mages have been using these sorts of powers for forever, so going or not going is largely irrelevant when it's a magic type mages have been using for decades and other mages have gone and come back with more specific information.
    Can you have a single discussion here without slipping in an ad hominem or two?

    That being said, you will also note that the game often adds checks to see if you've actively completed the referenced content before the reference is made. I would argue that any references made to past content that the character has not completed are actually examples of developer oversight rather than any kind of guiding canonical principle. Unless, of course, you can provide an overt statement of intent.

  14. #54
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Now who is spouting headcanon as fact?
    it is literally fact, not head cannon, even if you started playing yesterday, your charecter is one of THE legendary heroes who siege ice crown, who took down nzoth, who saved azeroth from sargeras.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    That's fine. But not every Mage will have gone to the Shadowlands. Now the rule is bent.
    Yes, every mage that you play has gone to the shadowlands, because every charecter you play is "One of the heroes"

    when you play mario, you are the same mario who was in all the other games, it is not "bullshit lore breaking" when bowser says "You have beaten me hundreds of times before, but you will not beat me now!"

    because you are playing as mario, THE mario. even if you did not play the past games, even if you did, it is stated that you are, because you are.

    Blizz does not want to force you upon every new charecter have to redo EVERYTHING from EVERY prior expansion, because it is simply stated you have.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2022-08-22 at 09:47 PM.

  15. #55

  16. #56
    Hear me out.

    Some talents should be locked behind questlines.
    Covenant abilities should be 4-choice nodes, one for each covenant.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer
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    I'm just sad Condemn is gone for Warrior. Absolutely fucking love that shit. Yeah sure you can get it in a roundabout way (the high HP Execute at least) but it doesn't have the cool animation and that's the biggest draw. It's lame. Spear of Bastion being in is good because that shit's fun as hell for every spec and I'm glad for it.

    Pally for instance gets Toll but not the conduit that makes it a good single target ability for Ret so it's kinda weak. It gets the Necrochad ability as a passive that's easier to use but not the 4 charges that make it a reasonably good ability, just one. Venthyr one is gone and I'm glad because a 4m CD that can't move is awkward (and the soulbind that goes with Venthyr and makes it strong isn't present either) and Night Fae is for Holy so whatever. Night Fae is lame but I don't play Holy so it means little to me but I imagine it's less useless of an ability for Holy so who knows.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  18. #58
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    it is stated that you are, because you are.
    Where is this stated?

  19. #59
    Rehashing talents into trees from the worst expansions is not very interesting.

  20. #60
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Where is this stated?
    Wotlk
    Cataclysm
    Mop
    Wod
    Legion
    BFA
    Shadowlands
    Dragonflight


    Literally every expansion you are noted as being one of the champions of azeroth, even in wotlk they reference this, hell even a bit in tbc, the trial of the crusade dungeon boss literally summons bosses from your memeory of famous bosses you killed in the past, cause you are the champion of azeroth and did kill these bosses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mr2t View Post
    Rehashing talents into trees from the worst expansions is not very interesting.
    They arnt rehashing talents from wod though.

    Also abilities are usually NEVER what is wrong with an expansion. wod even for its horrible overall everything had amazing abilities.

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