[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Mehrunes]

Why are people acting like Tatiana Maslany is some uggo?

Some of those pictures are like a decade old and I'm pretty sure the left one is from a photo shoot for a magazine, which is hardly representative of anyone's normal looks. Now, personally I wouldn't call her ugly either way (though as far as my own tastes go MCU alone has its fill of much more attractive women), but still, not the best examples to use to convince people of her current attractiveness.

cause beauty standards for women in Hollywood are different from those for men. and before someone says something about beefcakes and steroids, that's not for women, that's mostly for male power fantasies.

some dudes don't even realize how much thirst there is for characters like Phil Coulson, Bruce Banner (without the abs and all) and there there is Picard (aka Patrick Steward), the ultimate thirst trap. Chris Pratt was far more popular with women when he was a pudgy cheerful himbo, than when he beefed up and started acting more macho/playing more macho characters.

its not that women are never, EVER attracted to muscle, but rather standards of physical attractiveness for men/male characters are nowhere NEAR as ridiculous as those for women. even Magic Mike couldn't just coast on sexy dancing alone, they had to add some vulnerability and personality to their beefcake for more women to like them.

so yeah, the main reason these actors are beefing up is to present a power fantasy for dudes to project themselves onto, any sort of attractiveness to female audience is a secondary concern.

Male power fantasy indeed. That's precisely why adverts targeted at women in female magazines and whatnot that try to use the titillating angle to push a product are full of Phil Coulsons and cheerful himbos (never mind that himbo is a term for male bimbo, which is kinda the opposite of what you were getting at) of the world. Oh, wait...

She is quite clearly shown to master every aspect of being a Hulk, including the controlled transformation in a matter of days at most, while disregarding Bruce's decades of experience every step of the way. There is no "training", she is just showing off. Bruce is outspokenly jealous how easy it all comes to her.

Then the guy that has been so deeply depressed by his condition that he attempted suicide at least once (he says so in Avengers 1), had to listen to her moaning about how hard her life as an attractive succeful woman is. It is a disgusting tone-deaf scene. Clearly made to pander to extremist feminist viewers that just like to see a woman being better then a man, no matter how little sense it makes.

Her biggest trauma in this episode was ripping her favourite suit by transforming. It is very difficult to feel anything for her when the stakes are sooooooooo low.

And before some fool again calls me misogynistic for pointing this flaw out, I am not saying that Jennifer is bad, the actress is doing a fine job. But the writing team really needs to fucking think about what words they put in her mouth.

Putting aside how this is a rather significant exaggeration to put it mildly, don't you think Jennifer having less trauma to deal with is precisely why things may be easier for her? Kinda shot yourself in the foot with that one.

[Endus]

You really do not understand what a Mary Sue is and your little offended tantrum does not allow you to get my point.

The prologue shows a character that INSTANTLY overcomes any and all adversity presented to her. She masters being a Hulk in days, she is immediatedly skilled enough to beat Bruce in a fist fight despite him having gone through dozens of life or death fights, she beats Titania with one punch as if she was Saitama.

This makes one question how high the stakes have to be for her to even break a sweat.

You're literally lying.

It shows us Walters prepping for her closing arguments, and nervous about pulling it off. And that's from after the Hulking, before we go back to see how she became a Hulk.

She doesn't "master being a Hulk". She has enough control to turn it on and off. Which isn't hard for anyone but Bruce, because the problems Bruce has are down to his dissociative identity disorder, which has nothing to do with the gamma radiation. There's nothing to "master". They explain this in detail repeatedly, and you're intentionally ignoring that to push your agenda.

She and Bruce don't have a real fight. They're family, and they're tousling. It's friendly. Neither of them "wins" that fight, they eventually roll into and destroy the bar and they both quit.

Yeah, she beats Titania in a single punch in their first encounter, because that was setup. She's the main villain of the series. It's not gonna be that easy in Round 2.

That is just bad writing. If everything comes so easy to the Main Characters then she is very unrelatable and boring.

It was a prologue infodump. Why you're expecting significant adversity from it is baffling. That doesn't make a character "unrelatable" or "boring".

If they want to make her unbeatable then they need to give her other weaknesses. Like the mentioned Saitama. A character that is unbeatable, successful, attractive and smart is just extremely bland.

She-Hulk is no way "unbeatable" and you literally don't have grounds to make that claim. Nor have they even started to explore her weak points. All you're really saying is that you're upset that there's a strong, competent female character, who can hold her own next to a male character.

Especially after the infodump prologue which only serves to explain how she became a Hulk and how much of Bruce's Hulk problems are unique to Bruce.

A female character didn't royally screw something up or fail in some significant way in a single episode, and that's where you decide to call her a "Mary Sue". That's misogyny, and a misuse of the term.

[Darththeo]

Literally the first time I have seen a time frame necessary to be a Mary Sue. Sounds quite like you just wanna deny my point and are reaching for any weak excuse. A first episode is meant to establish a status quo, introduce the characters and give us an idea about their strength and weaknesses (not in detail).
It very much failed on that. It showed us a perfect being, that is not in anyway threatened or even fazed by the most crazy shit happening to her, needs no instruction by a guy with 15 year experience and casually beats him in every aspect of the training.

I get that for many people this is completely excuseable because we are talking about a woman and empowerment is more important then a decent narrative. For me it is just very bad writing that counts on critique being shut up by the murderous Twitter crowd or the murderous forum crowd as it is here.
Much like it was with people critizising the horrendous second Wonder Woman movie that depicts "the hero" physically and mentally abusing an innocent guy to get her dead boyfriend back.

You consistently show you do not understand what a Mary Sue is. She hulk is not a Mary Sue despite you stretching that definition.

It is the FIRST episode of a tv show. You aren't going to often see what you are asking for.

And you are literally lying, she is very much phased by what is happening to her. She isn't reacting how you want her to. Either you didn't watch the episode yourself or watched it with looking for reason to assume your own bias because there is no way you watched it honestly and come to the conclusion you did.

Again, Bruce has more experience with the transformation than she did. But it only took him 31 days to learn to control it. That's canon. Bruce in 31 days on his own without help from someone who knows what to do it, learned it. You are saying Jen can't possibly learn faster from someone who knows. Do you think it takes as long to learn something as it does to be the first person to do it? I guess all school kids are Mary Sue because they learn things men in the past spent years of their life learning.

Essentially, you want to see every detail of training and want everything explained to you. Jen establishes that she experienced the meditation before Bruce brought it up.

You do not know what a Mary Sue is. You do not understand what the show shows you. Therefore, you make up BS that isn't supported in the show because you want to hate it for those reasons.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Literally the first time I have seen a time frame necessary to be a Mary Sue.

The only thing Jen is a "Mary Sue" about is not having Disassociative Identity Disorder. That's the reason things were harder for Bruce because, before he "merged" with the Hulk., he literally became a different person. And that wasn't caused by Gamma exposure... that was caused by a shitty childhood with an abusive father and a buttload of suppressed trauma.

Jen doesn't have that. So when Jen Hulks out...she's just a bigger, stronger Jen. So yeah, that's "easier" for her...but it would be easier for anyone else too...like Emil Blonsky...who was also, by your standards, a "Mary Sue" when he became the Abomination.

[Endus]

The only thing Jen is a "Mary Sue" about is not having Disassociative Identity Disorder. That's the reason things were harder for Bruce because, before he "merged" with the Hulk., he literally became a different person. And that wasn't caused by Gamma exposure... that was caused by a shitty childhood with an abusive father and a buttload of suppressed trauma.

Jen doesn't have that. So when Jen Hulks out...she's just a bigger, stronger Jen. So yeah, that's "easier" for her...but it would be easier for anyone else too...like Emil Blonsky...who was also, by your standards, a "Mary Sue" when he became the Abomination.

You'll note this "Mary Sue" shit never comes up with characters like Captain America, either. Literally all Steve's "weaknesses" were eliminated by the Super Soldier Serum. The best you could say negative about him is he's not as "super" as some others, in some ways, though he always manages to hold his own. He's even worthy enough for Mjolnir.

But I've never heard anyone call him a "Gary Stu". Meanwhile, any female character who's remotely competent gets flagged as a "Mary Sue", just for keeping up with the guys, unless she's written to be "properly" subservient in some way.

[Witchblade77]

Rare gene not unique gene. He's bled before in the films. People have to have been in contact with it. Even if 99% of them did die touching it there would be a crew gathering it up as a weapon. And using it to assassinate people would eventually lead to a survivor.

I

I'm honestly wondering if they are just ignoring that part, because I cannot personaly remember him ever bleeding prior to She Hulk once they recast the role.

[Mehrunes]

The only thing Jen is a "Mary Sue" about is not having Disassociative Identity Disorder. That's the reason things were harder for Bruce because, before he "merged" with the Hulk., he literally became a different person. And that wasn't caused by Gamma exposure... that was caused by a shitty childhood with an abusive father and a buttload of suppressed trauma.

Jen doesn't have that. So when Jen Hulks out...she's just a bigger, stronger Jen. So yeah, that's "easier" for her...but it would be easier for anyone else too...like Emil Blonsky...who was also, by your standards, a "Mary Sue" when he became the Abomination.

Inb4 that's somehow different. Which would inadvertently expose the implicit sexism in many, many cases of the use (or, more accurately, overuse) of the term Mary Sue to begin with.

[Witchblade77]

Male power fantasy indeed. That's precisely why adverts targeted at women in female magazines and whatnot that try to use the titillating angle to push a product are full of Phil Coulsons and cheerful himbos (never mind that himbo is a term for male bimbo, which is kinda the opposite of what you were getting at) of the world. Oh, wait...

.

again, you are equating attractiveness with bodybuilding style muscle - Andy in Parks and Rec is absolutely a Himbo, being a himbo doesn't require a 6pack nor is it the exact mirror of bimbo. notice that usually dudes in female magazine ads even when they are on a more conventional side - look like Ken dolls, fit, but not ridiculously shredded and certainly nowhere near that size. and yes, "female" magazines have plenty of profiles of actors who are attractive, but not even in Ken doll way. Romance novel covers are a mixed bag, in part becasue of how many dudes are involved in publishing, but even in those - you tend to get maybe a swimmer's physique, majority of the time, excluding specific kinks.

FFS - look at the singers that younger girls drool after. NONE of them are musleheads. they are at best skinny. That pic of Chris Evans above... he's SLIM there, nowhere near the size he is as Captain America.

This shredded, heavily musclebound look? sorry, that's mostly for dude power fantasy. I'm about 99% sure that people complaining the most about Pattison not getting bigger to play Batman? were dudes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Rare gene not unique gene. He's bled before in the films. People have to have been in contact with it. Even if 99% of them did die touching it there would be a crew gathering it up as a weapon. And using it to assassinate people would eventually lead to a survivor.

I

Why would any one gather trace amounts of hulk blood to use as a weapon when there are much easier ways to kill people? Stan lees death in the hulk movie put up huge red flags which lead to the government tracking him down if abunch of people started to get gamma poisoning they would starting tracking where it came form immediately.

And even if who ever using the blood wasn't found rare genes in marvel tend to be one in a million or even billion it wouldn’t be 99% of people dying it would likely be 000000000.9.

[Rocksteady 87]

I'm honestly wondering if they are just ignoring that part, because I cannot personaly remember him ever bleeding prior to She Hulk once they recast the role.

Thor: Ragnarok. Final fight. The Fenris Wolf bit into him and a huge gusher of blood spewed out. And this was the full, raging (and thus stronger/more resilient) Hulk at the time.

Admitted it was on an alien planet, taking place on the edge of a waterfall on a "world" (dunno why they consider it a planet; it was at best a deformed asteroid) that's about to be destroyed. And his attacker was a mystical giant wolf bordering on godhood.

But he still bled, and quite a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing Jen is a "Mary Sue" about is not having Disassociative Identity Disorder. That's the reason things were harder for Bruce because, before he "merged" with the Hulk., he literally became a different person. And that wasn't caused by Gamma exposure... that was caused by a shitty childhood with an abusive father and a buttload of suppressed trauma.

Jen doesn't have that. So when Jen Hulks out...she's just a bigger, stronger Jen. So yeah, that's "easier" for her...but it would be easier for anyone else too...like Emil Blonsky...who was also, by your standards, a "Mary Sue" when he became the Abomination.

But she perfectly crashed her car and almost killed both her and her cousin.
And she perfectly got knocked out by Bruce after her second transformation.
And she perfectly is getting mocked by absolutely delusional incels on the Internet for not being hot.

But hey, she did come up with the chopstick Cheetos technique. So, totally a Mary Sue. Just like her boy Blonsky, as you pointed out.

Nevermind, again, that this first episode was entirely her going "okay, so like this is totally what happened, but I'll be brief so we can get back to the fun parts" more than an accurate depiction of events. But who cares about that, right?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Rare gene not unique gene. He's bled before in the films. People have to have been in contact with it. Even if 99% of them did die touching it there would be a crew gathering it up as a weapon. And using it to assassinate people would eventually lead to a survivor.

I

I mean, literally almost every superhero would have gaggles of supervillains, mad scientists and government agencies trying to gather up their blood. And yeah, there'd be lots of it lying around after one of these big battles. Unfortunately, what scientists tend to want are clean and untainted samples of blood... which is a little harder to come by.

Is that a series you'd be interested in? There was almost a "Damage Control" Television series and I'm sure they'd have a whole department just for cleaning up and containing radioactive blood. Maybe start a petition to see if Disney+ will get that ball rolling again. Regardless, Damage Control (Department of Damage Control) does exist in the MCU...and thier primary job is to keep things like Hulk blood, Stark Armor, and Alien Weaponry out of the wrong hands.

And no one is going to waste whatever samples of whatever blood they manage for assassinations. Poisons and such for killing already exist in abundance. If someone did manage to get a little bit of untainted Hulk blood...they'd be using it to try and make their own Hulks, or cure diseases and shit like that. Probably end up killing themselves or a lot of other people in the process...but you can't make an omellette without breaking a few eggs.

[Fencers]

Great numbers on this one. The lead actress really is carrying this show. She's probably gonna get a big re-up and start leading films if the minutes and engagement continue to be high.

[Biomega]

Great numbers on this one. The lead actress really is carrying this show. She's probably gonna get a big re-up and start leading films if the minutes and engagement continue to be high.

I'll give it a watch when I resub to D+ for Andor in September, but it's not going to get me back on its own

[qwerty123456]

You'll note this "Mary Sue" shit never comes up with characters like Captain America, either. Literally all Steve's "weaknesses" were eliminated by the Super Soldier Serum. The best you could say negative about him is he's not as "super" as some others, in some ways, though he always manages to hold his own. He's even worthy enough for Mjolnir.

But I've never heard anyone call him a "Gary Stu". Meanwhile, any female character who's remotely competent gets flagged as a "Mary Sue", just for keeping up with the guys, unless she's written to be "properly" subservient in some way.

Steve's flaw was being a scrawny shit not Captain America's. And he wasn't just given his strength he earned it by showing his strong morals and willingness to sacrifice himself which ends up being Captain America's weakness as he sacrifices his happiness, his life, and even his relationship with the country he loves for his for what he thinks is right. He even fails to lift Mjolnir just to prevent Thor from feeling bad. It's only at the end of his story where he overcomes his weakness and chooses his own happiness over service.

[Endus]

Steve's flaw was being a scrawny shit not Captain America's. And he wasn't just given his strength he earned it by showing his strong morals and willingness to sacrifice himself which ends up being Captain America's weakness as he sacrifices his happiness, his life, and even his relationship with the country he loves for his for what he thinks is right. He even fails to lift Mjolnir just to prevent Thor from feeling bad. It's only at the end of his story where he overcomes his weakness and chooses his own happiness over service.

Again, if we applied this kind of standard even remotely equally, we'd barely ever hear the label "Mary Sue". It's primarily used as an attack on female protagonists, for being women.

I'm not arguing Steve's a Gary Stu, here. I'm saying the terms aren't used properly most of the time.

[Gumble]

Steve's flaw was being a scrawny shit not Captain America's. And he wasn't just given his strength he earned it by showing his strong morals and willingness to sacrifice himself which ends up being Captain America's weakness as he sacrifices his happiness, his life, and even his relationship with the country he loves for his for what he thinks is right. He even fails to lift Mjolnir just to prevent Thor from feeling bad. It's only at the end of his story where he overcomes his weakness and chooses his own happiness over service.

Shhhhh when you explain what good characters are the usual suspects get really upset and will start calling you names.

They can just go back to watching shows that have to tell you how awesome the main character is 100 times because they know otherwise you won't believe it from their actions.

[Endus]

Shhhhh when you explain what good characters are the usual suspects get really upset and will start calling you names.

They can just go back to watching shows that have to tell you how awesome the main character is 100 times because they know otherwise you won't believe it from their actions.

What are you even talking about.

[Gumble]

Again, if we applied this kind of standard even remotely equally, we'd barely ever hear the label "Mary Sue". It's primarily used as an attack on female protagonists, for being women.

I'm not arguing Steve's a Gary Stu, here. I'm saying the terms aren't used properly most of the time.

The character in this she hulk show isn't a mary sue, she's just a crappily written sub in for the authors of this show to make their own lives feel less empty.

[qwerty123456]

I mean, literally almost every superhero would have gaggles of supervillains, mad scientists and government agencies trying to gather up their blood. And yeah, there'd be lots of it lying around after one of these big battles. Unfortunately, what scientists tend to want are clean and untainted samples of blood... which is a little harder to come by.

Is that a series you'd be interested in? There was almost a "Damage Control" Television series and I'm sure they'd have a whole department just for cleaning up and containing radioactive blood. Maybe start a petition to see if Disney+ will get that ball rolling again. Regardless, Damage Control (Department of Damage Control) does exist in the MCU...and thier primary job is to keep things like Hulk blood, Stark Armor, and Alien Weaponry out of the wrong hands.

And no one is going to waste whatever samples of whatever blood they manage for assassinations. Poisons and such for killing already exist in abundance. If someone did manage to get a little bit of untainted Hulk blood...they'd be using it to try and make their own Hulks, or cure diseases and shit like that. Probably end up killing themselves or a lot of other people in the process...but you can't make an omellette without breaking a few eggs.

Nobody else has blood where a single drop can kill you or turn you in to a demigod. And unless they retcon the leader then the rare gene that keeps you from dying isn't really rare as people think. But If the people cleaning up are all dying from single drops of hulk blood of course criminals would be using it for assassinations since they would have no reason to believe it could make you a hulk.

[Gumble]

What are you even talking about.

It's ok, I never expect you to understand much. Go back to calling people names.