[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Darththeo]

I don't do hiding.
If you disagree with me it's okay in my book. Tell you more: it's okay in my book to argue over opinions. What about you?

Except you are.

You made an objective statement on the show. That statement is false. You are now going "It is just my opinion." That's hiding behind opinion.
We can argue over opinions, that's fine. However, you want to argue over facts and want to treat opinions the same level as fact.

This is going back to you have admitted you feel interpretations of events are all equally valid views. This is not the case.

If your statement was "There are too many men portrayed negatively" that's an opinion and we can argue what qualifies as negative and how numerous they are.
But, you claimed almost all and universally that men were portrayed negatively ... which is objectively false. It doesn't matter if that is your opinion, when I tell you it is false it isn't because I disagree with you, it is because it objectively not true.

You are arguing that all opinions are valid and should be treated as such. But this entire argument has been your opinion vs people telling you the facts of the show. This hasn't been an argument of opinions.

[AcidicSyn]

You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

I'm going to have to sig this one. /chefs kiss

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Except you are.

You made an objective statement on the show. That statement is false. You are now going "It is just my opinion." That's hiding behind opinion.
We can argue over opinions, that's fine. However, you want to argue over facts and want to treat opinions the same level as fact.

No.
It was and is and still am going to be my opinion.
You could argue over that, you chose to argue me being a liar.
You could argue with my opinion, you chose to insinuate I treat my opinion as an objective undisputable fact.

If your statement was "There are too many men portrayed negatively" that's an opinion and we can argue what qualifies as negative and how numerous they are.

Okay.
There are too many men portrayed negatively.
Let us go and discuss this opinion, then, shall we?

But, you claimed almost all and universally that men were portrayed negatively ... which is...

...an exxageration.

You are arguing that all opinions are valid and should be treated as such.

Are they not?
Who's gonna decide who's opinion is more or less valid?
That is a really interesting question.

[Hansworst]

Wonder who's burner account/ban evader you all are interacting with.

[Darththeo]

No.
It was and is and still am going to be my opinion.
You could argue over that, you chose to argue me being a liar.
You could argue with my opinion, you chose to insinuate I treat my opinion as an objective undisputable fact.

Yes.
It was treated that way by you objectively by way you said it.
I do that because that is exactly what you are doing.

Okay.
There are too many men portrayed negatively.
Let us go and discuss this opinion, then, shall we?

No, because you have shown you argue dishonestly. See above and below.

...an exxageration.

Which can be viewed as another word for lying. If I exaggerate how big the fish I caught was, I am lying about its size.
So, why do you get upset over being called a liar when you now admit you were "exaggerating"?

Are they not?
Who's gonna decide who's opinion is more or less valid?
That is a really interesting question.

It is based on how the opinion related to facts. An opinion is less valid if it is contradicted by facts.
It is less valid if you have to color facts to fit the opinion.
These are objective ways of determining it.

You have to lie ... I am sorry "exaggerate" to make your argument. That makes it less valid to any opinion that doesn't do that.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Yes.
It was treated that way by you objectively by way you said it.
I do that because that is exactly what you are doing.

No.

No, because you have shown you argue dishonestly. See above and below.

I suppose that means we've got nothing more to say to each other and can bid our farewells, then.

Which can be viewed as another word for lying. If I exaggerate how big the fish I caught was, I am lying about its size.
So, why do you get upset over being called a liar when you now admit you were "exaggerating"?

I am not getting upset over unknown people calling me names on the internet.
I don't believe exaggeration make my point entirely devoid of substance.
But that is beside us, as we are to bid our farewells.

It is based on how the opinion related to facts. An opinion is less valid if it is contradicted by facts.
It is less valid if you have to color facts to fit the opinion.
These are objective ways of determining it.

If I said that "There are too many men portrayed negatively(to quote you)", would my opinion be more valid and argue-worthy?

[Darththeo]

No.

You do know we can read exactly what you type right? Just because you think you haven't done it means nothing here.
All that gets you is that you did not intend to do it, which rings hollow.

I am not getting upset over unknown people calling me names on the internet.
I don't believe exaggeration make my point entirely devoid of substance.

You literally asked people to prove you lied and when they did, and then you hid behind opinion.

If I said that "There are too many men portrayed negatively(to quote you)", would my opinion be more valid and argue-worthy?

If that was what you started with, yes, it would have been. But that isn't what you started with.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

If that was what you started with, yes, it would have been. But that isn't what you started with.

And now that we've come to this, you refuse to argue.
Let us indeed bid our farewells to each other.

[Endus]

And now that we've come to this, you refuse to argue.
Let us indeed bid our farewells to each other.

You say nothing to be argued against. You lie about the facts of the show, and want that misrepresentation to be treated as a legitimate, debatable opinion.

It's not.

All it's owed is a refusal to consider it because it's intentionally dishonest.

Your "opinion" is objectively wrong, and if you can't honestly admit that, it's because you're here with malicious intent.

[Witchblade77]

Sure. My immediate read might be wrong, and he might pop back up with an "I think I was too hasty, being confronted with the change the morning after was just . . . too much, in the moment, but I'd really like to get to know you, both versions, better."

I really dislike the argument that he's presented in any way as a "bad dude". At best, he's a little disappointed and cuts and runs after a one-night stand. It's not like she's pregnant and he's ducking out on being a supportive dad-to-be or something; they owe each other nothing at that point, and staying for breakfast would imply more than he's ready for in that moment.

I'm honestly not sure we are going to see him again, not because he is supposed to be a bad guy or shallow, but rather because it feels like She-Hulk has this pattern of bringing in guest characters and then never return to them again. not every guest character is like that but at least half of them seem to be - they are just there to create some sort of comedy and never to be seen again. I don't think we are seeing Madisynn or that Blaze guy again either. its just the vibe that I got

He's a little petty. But the weirdest fuckin' thing about this argument is the idea that characters should be presented as flawless paragons. While simultaneously attacking Walters as a "Mary Sue". If Wong wasn't a petty little bitch sometimes, he'd be a Gary Stu. So would any character. Flaws are what make characters interesting. And yes, Walters has flaws; she's insecure, self-absorbed, impulsive but repressed.

his displays of pettiness are kinda minor though like the whole one upping magic tricks, but when it comes to both his duties - he doesn't start going after that Blaze guy until he is demonstrating that what he's doing is truly genuinely dangerous. and while he grumbles at Madisynn about spoilers, he still hangs out with her and returns her to her home, etc. His pettiness is pretty benign and mostly played for laughs which... I have mixed feelings about but /shrug

Jen definitely has a LOT of faults, some of them feel intentional, others... I don't even know.

He's the Sorceror Supreme. He's literally the guy who determines how things regarding the mystic arts are "supposed to be". He may disagree with the Ancient One's positions on such, but that's his right and authority as the new Sorceror Supreme, over and above there being valid reasons to adjust those stances in the aftermath of what all's been happening lately.

fair enough

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Which, in turn, depends on who's to define what's biased and what's unbiased, don't you think?

But, it's hard to argue with someone who either demands you to watch and stfu or do not watch and stfu just as well. Not pointed directly at you, but it's a certain vibe going on when discussing tv shows on most platforms, from my experience.

You can't really have your own opinion about something you have not watched for yourself. The most you can have is "I saw the trailers, it didn't look like somethinng i would enjoy"...and that's fine. Not all TV is made for all people.

If your opinion comes from watching "Johnny YouTube's" criticism of the show...it isn't your opinion.

[Biomega]

So I got around to actually watching all the episodes since D+ is $1.99 for a month, and I gotta say - this is some of the most fun I've had with an MCU show, ever. I get that it isn't any kind of big-impact stuff, but it's just stupid, silly fun in all the right ways. And I usually hate sitcoms with a passion. I much prefer something that's self-aware of its own schlockiness over something that purports to be serious but can never escape the confines of the inherent silliness of the superhero genre.

I honestly didn't expect to enjoy this as much as I did, that was very surprising.

[paxen]

I'm honestly not sure we are going to see him again, not because he is supposed to be a bad guy or shallow, but rather because it feels like She-Hulk has this pattern of bringing in guest characters and then never return to them again. not every guest character is like that but at least half of them seem to be - they are just there to create some sort of comedy and never to be seen again. I don't think we are seeing Madisynn or that Blaze guy again either. its just the vibe that I got

Man, if we don't get to see Madisynn again that *would* be a loss, she's hilarious

The doctor may have fulfilled his role, which is to show that one night stands she picks up as She-hulk oftean react badly when they wake up with Jen. (I don't think he was a douche about it, he wasn't rude or anything just surprised to find a stranger there in the morning and wanted out.) I don't know where they'll take it, we're eventually coming to the part where Jen embraces her outer greeness (as seen in the trailers and also matches the comics), we might get doctor guy again if they want to play up her wanting to be She-hulk permanently, or not if they instead want to focus on her insecurities.

So I got around to actually watching all the episodes since D+ is $1.99 for a month, and I gotta say - this is some of the most fun I've had with an MCU show, ever. I get that it isn't any kind of big-impact stuff, but it's just stupid, silly fun in all the right ways. And I usually hate sitcoms with a passion. I much prefer something that's self-aware of its own schlockiness over something that purports to be serious but can never escape the confines of the inherent silliness of the superhero genre.

I honestly didn't expect to enjoy this as much as I did, that was very surprising.

I'm witholding judgment due to earlier marvel shows (they have a history of not sticking the landing), but so far I think it's overall very good. There are weak parts (the courtroom stuff, not just inaccuracies but also because it's not really interesting courtroom melodrama IMO) and cringe parts (I *hate* watching stuff like the bad date scenes, but that's my preference and not a verdict on the scenes themselves), but overall it's been a fun ride.

But I'll wait until the season is over until I give them a pass. I don't think any of the marvel shows really managed to wrap stuff up in a good way.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I don't know where they'll take it, we're eventually coming to the part where Jen embraces her outer greeness (as seen in the trailers and also matches the comics), we might get doctor guy again if they want to play up her wanting to be She-hulk permanently, or not if they instead want to focus on her insecurities.

I think that would be the wrong way to play it. It'a not about Jen coming to terms with being She-Hulk...it's about her acccepting every part of herself.

The Doctor was clearly only interested in She-Hulk...and it's not entirely clear if he was even really interested in her at all or if he was just some kind of pick-up artist that told her everything she wanted to hear in order to get her into the sack. Either way, he certainly didn't even give just regular Jen a chance.

The point being is that if Jen has to be She-Hulk in order to get the guy...then he isn't the guy she should be trying to get.

[SavoirFaire]

I'm witholding judgment due to earlier marvel shows (they have a history of not sticking the landing), but so far I think it's overall very good. There are weak parts (the courtroom stuff, not just inaccuracies but also because it's not really interesting courtroom melodrama IMO) and cringe parts (I *hate* watching stuff like the bad date scenes, but that's my preference and not a verdict on the scenes themselves), but overall it's been a fun ride.

But I'll wait until the season is over until I give them a pass. I don't think any of the marvel shows really managed to wrap stuff up in a good way.

My biggest disappointment has been the courtroom stuff. It’s a bit too comedic, so it makes the superhero law stuff seem silly, which then makes the whole point of Jen as a lawyer seem silly. Ally McBeal blended comedy and court well, from my admittedly potentially rose colored glasses.

Otherwise the show has been enjoyable, but is it being used to setup other marvel stuff (hulk flying off, abom in thunderbolts, ddoc, etc) or will all this come together? Marvel is infected with setup-itis, so it would be good to feel things are standalone first, sequel/MCU second, but this one seems flipped. We shall see, I’m certainly enjoying the ride.

Also I really am looking forward to seeing what a “super powered influencer” is. I’m wonder if this Titania has a bit more of a power set than strength and invulnerability.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

My biggest disappointment has been the courtroom stuff. It’s a bit too comedic, so it makes the superhero law stuff seem silly, which then makes the whole point of Jen as a lawyer seem silly. Ally McBeal blended comedy and court well, from my admittedly potentially rose colored glasses.

Daredevil is more the place for more dramatic courtroom action. I'm hoping in his new Disney+ series there will be a trial with Matt vs Jen where both of them will really get to show that they are actually really good lawyers.

[Raisei]

some dudes are creeps and other men arent?
Like that how they are explained.

1) How many men in the show have been shown in a positive light? I see Pug aaaand that is it.

Even Bruce was guilty of mansplaining "being a Hulk" and Blonsky has a literal harem of women, whose money he will take. Wong nearly bombed Jen's hearing because he was busy watching Sopranos. And those are the best of them, the other males are by far worse, either outright misogynists or trying in other ways to destroy Jennifers life or abuse her for their own gain.

That Titania now takes an active role came actually as a surprise until we learn ofc that she has been forced to work for Doctor Doom (who gave her her powers in the comics) all along to take control of America (not Chavez) by "super influencing"!

DOOOOM commands you to ike and subscribe!

2) The point is representation. I am not surprised that you refuse to see it because it is not about a demographic you care about, but it is obvious to literally everyone else, espeically outside of this echo chamber thread.

95% of the males in the show are horrible people, while 95% of all females in the show are nothing but good and supportive (the only exception being the Elf), that is a very biased way of representing the genders.

I repeat what I said several times already: If a different show would try to flip this representation (f.e. showing 95% of its female cast as dumb bimboes that jump the bone of every man with money) then there would have been canceling, because it would be clearly misogynistic.

The only reason this is not happening with She-Hulk is because the writer is attacking straight males and those apparently do no longer have the right to a decent representation. Worse, if they critizise this practice they are attacked as misogynists hating the show for having "a female viewpoint".

Personally I find this a worrying development, since I figured what everyone wanted was gender equality. But apparently what we actually want is to repeat the mistakes of the past, just that this time we flipped the roles and have the men be the mistreated ones.

Allowing a person like this shows writer to present herself as a feminist while she is clearly just a petty misandrist will only serve to damage the reputation of feminism and for the life of me I have no idea why people in this thread are supporting that.

- - - Updated - - -

Are they not?
Who's gonna decide who's opinion is more or less valid?
That is a really interesting question.

I can answer that question for you.

They have been trying surpress different opinions from the start. If you criticise the shows message you are either a liar or a misogynist or both. Somehow they decided that they have the right to decide what is and isn't the "right opinion" to have.

[Darththeo]

1)--snip--.

You are lying to make your argument. You are basically saying all these other men are negative because YOU see them as negative, not because they are actually negative.

And you think men isn't a demographic that I, a man, would care about? The absolute arrogance you have making that absolute garbage tier statement. You are wrong. They literally have shown the negative female elf, Madisynn in the latest episode isn't shown as positive. Hell, by YOUR logic, Blonsky's multiple life partners aren't positive. The female judge board member can be viewed as negative. You are inconsistent with how you are judging negative light.

Even Jen and her paralegal can be viewed as being negative. You are judging the male characters by one standard and the female characters by another and it is clear to anyone even those that have not even watched the show that you are using a double standard. Your head canon is not the show and given your audacity with this latest reply. Do everyone including yourself a favor and leave the topic.

[Skulltaker]

I have a question for those of you who know the source; does SheHulk usually break the 4th wall so much?

If not, maybe that's how they introduce Deadpool. Have him walk in at the end of the show and hand her a cease and desist because that's 'his thing'.

[Hansworst]

I have a question for those of you who know the source; does SheHulk usually break the 4th wall so much?

If not, maybe that's how they introduce Deadpool. Have him walk in at the end of the show and hand her a cease and desist because that's 'his thing'.

She-Hulk did that in the comics long before Deadpool made his debut.

But that would be a funny way to introduce Deadpool. A scene of the two facing each other while occasionally moving their faces to a side to talk to a non-existing person.