[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Biomega]

But otherwise, having multiple identities isn't automatically "fraudulent", in and of itself.

Adding on to that, most fraud is usually a tort, i.e. a civil wrong, not a criminal offense. You can absolutely reach a settlement agreement to avoid charges there, no crime is being concealed because no crime has been committed. There's criminal frauds of course (bank fraud, insurance fraud, etc.) but we don't know if that was actually in play here OR if he was conspiring to hide those crimes.

[Endus]

Adding on to that, most fraud is usually a tort, i.e. a civil wrong, not a criminal offense. You can absolutely reach a settlement agreement to avoid charges there, no crime is being concealed because no crime has been committed. There's criminal frauds of course (bank fraud, insurance fraud, etc.) but we don't know if that was actually in play here OR if he was conspiring to hide those crimes.

I think the strong implication, given how he described his finances, is that he's largely on the up-and-up. He's rich, but not because he's dishonest, but because he made some really smart investment choices. Holding those via a corporate entity with an arrangement that allows his subsequent selves to access that corporate entity wouldn't amount to any kind of fraud, and as long as he's paying his taxes appropriately (if complicated by multiple identities), the government won't care how many names he has in a given year.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

My point is that nothing about the trailer suggest that this is a sitcom. It can have more comedy than action and not be a sitcom, it can have some plot related to her personal life and still not be a sitcom... just by watching the trailer, from the clips to the music, everything transmits that the show is just as any other marvel show, leaning more towards comedy than action, wich is totally fine.

But let me be clear that i don't make a big deal about this, trailers often work this way. Some trailers end up being better than the show or movie they promote and the point of a trailer is to sell the product.

I don't recall any other marvel show that has their main character break the 4th wall or set up a profile on a dating app. The closest thing is Deadpool...and the She-Hulk trailers didn't make it look anything at all like Deadpool.

You can't dismiss any criticism by saying "it's not bad, you just don't like it". We can enjoy or not a show and still recognize it's qualities and flaws.

When all the criticism is just "This show is bad" without giving any details as to why it's bad (or the details are made up)...you can absolutely dismiss that criticism as "it's just not for you"

To me the show doesn't work well because the elements that should define it as a sitcom are weak at best,

What's weak about them? This is a vague complaint.

the action is sparce and the plot is advancing at the pace of a snail

It's a sitcom...not an action series or a drama. I don't expect a ton of action or intricate plotlines from a sitcom

HIMYM had 9 seasons and we didn't even meet the titular mother until the end of the 8th. Now that is a snail's pace. And the most "action" we ever got was from the "Slapsgiving" episodes.

i find the writing to be simply bad and unfunny.

You don't like the comedy. Other people do.

the CGI looks terrible most of the time

The CGI is not very good most of the time. I can give you that. I don't think the CGI is bad enough that it hurts the show though.

Most of your complaints are simply handled by saying "It's not for you". The Big Bang Theory wasn't for me...but obviously a lot of other people liked it. My solution was to just not watch the Big Bang Theory.

[NineSpine]

Faking your death is not usually illegal. The illegal part is usually fraud associated with the act, like collecting insurance money, etc. or avoiding criminal prosecution.

And he wasn't paying them off to keep quiet about the faking death part, was he? The way I remember it, his problem was them finding out he's still alive and demanding spousal support he owed because he didn't really end the marriages (seeing as he was still alive). You could probably construe fraud in there somehow, though that would run afoul of the death problem once more, since extant law doesn't usually cover coming back to life (at least not ACTUALLY coming back to life, only never having died in the first place).

He indicated pretty clearly that he changes his identity when he fakes his death. He doesn't actually die. He is "immortal". That means he doesn't die. Even if he did die every time, the law does not regard people who are medically deceased and then brought back to have "died" legally, so it is a moot point.

[Endus]

He indicated pretty clearly that he changes his identity when he fakes his death. He doesn't actually die. He is "immortal". That means he doesn't die. Even if he did die every time, the law does not regard people who are medically deceased and then brought back to have "died" legally, so it is a moot point.

In his first meeting with Mallory and Ginger, he says this:

Mr. Immortal: "Whoa whoa whoa, I don't kill myself. I'm immortal. So I can't die."
Ginger: "You think this woman with a law degree doesn't know what Immortal means?"
I: "Well, but in my case, I do die, but only in the legal sense."
G: "So you die."
I: "I do, I 'die.' But only for a . . . 'Kinda die' for . . . But I do die."

That bit in bold is in there for a reason. I don't know if he's got the law wrong, but he clearly thinks he's got a legal basis for what he's doing, and unless the law team dig into that, I don't have the basis for challenging it.

[NineSpine]

In his first meeting with Mallory and Ginger, he says this:

Mr. Immortal: "Whoa whoa whoa, I don't kill myself. I'm immortal. So I can't die."
Ginger: "You think this woman with a law degree doesn't know what Immortal means?"
I: "Well, but in my case, I do die, but only in the legal sense."
G: "So you die."
I: "I do, I 'die.' But only for a . . . 'Kinda die' for . . . But I do die."

That bit in bold is in there for a reason. I don't know if he's got the law wrong, but he clearly thinks he's got a legal basis for what he's doing, and unless the law team dig into that, I don't have the basis for challenging it.

There is a term for dying "in the legal sense" but not really being dead: Committing fraud.

This is like if someone said "My fraudulent paperwork for my stolen car is so good that I own it in a legal sense."

[Endus]

There is a term for dying "in the legal sense" but not really being dead: Committing fraud.

This is like if someone said "My fraudulent paperwork for my stolen car is so good that I own it in a legal sense."

How is it fraud? It's a breakdown of the law not accounting for superpowers, but that's literally the reason for the Superpower Law Division.

In fact, pretending a legal death isn't a legal death, that is more likely to be considered "fraud".

[NineSpine]

How is it fraud? It's a breakdown of the law not accounting for superpowers, but that's literally the reason for the Superpower Law Division.

In fact, pretending a legal death isn't a legal death, that is more likely to be considered "fraud".

You are conflating two things:

Medical death
Legal death

Medical death does not automatically cause legal death. Only irreversible medical death causes legal death. This is already how the law works. There is no superhero law needed for it. This is not a special case. People medically die every single day and are then resuscitated and therefore not legally dead.

[Endus]

You are conflating two things:

Medical death
Legal death

Medical death does not automatically cause legal death. Only irreversible medical death causes legal death. This is already how the law works. There is no superhero law needed for it. This is not a special case. People medically die every single day and are then resuscitated and therefore not legally dead.

I'm really not. I'm sticking to legal death. Mr. Immortal explicitly states that he legally dies every time. If you can find grounds in-universe to claim that he's wrong about that, that would be one thing, but I don't see that argument made in the show (point it out if I missed it). The medical aspects, like coming back to life, are something I'm overtly setting aside completely as the law often doesn't care about that sort of thing.

[NineSpine]

I'm really not. I'm sticking to legal death. Mr. Immortal explicitly states that he legally dies every time. If you can find grounds in-universe to claim that he's wrong about that, that would be one thing, but I don't see that argument made in the show (point it out if I missed it). The medical aspects, like coming back to life, are something I'm overtly setting aside completely as the law often doesn't care about that sort of thing.

Legal death is defined as being irreversibly dead. You can't be legally dead if you are alive.

[Endus]

Legal death is defined as being irreversibly dead. You can't be legally dead if you are alive.

In our world. We don't know how they're defined in the MCU. Again; Mr. Immortal is clear that he actually, legally dies every time. It's a whole scene. Explicitly making the point that while we'd all agree he's not really dead, for all legal purposes, he is.

[Svifnymr]

The main problem with the dying is that he had false identities underwhich he married many people and assumedly had other legal documents with various false identities, but they never really get into the details so can gloss over criminal fraud.
From the marriage sense, if he "died", then assuming the marriage is dissolved and the assetts would be split up according to the Will in place or a default, but they don't really deal with any of that, and his "real assets" were probably hidden.
From a "silly" sense, he just got up after jumping off the building, and walked away. If he walked into traffic and got hit and died, he would have returned to life and wandered off before the police had even arrived. There's no "pronounced dead", there's no funeral, why the spouses even thought he was dead were unclear.

I was disappointed that the plotline didn't actually deal with whether he was dead or not, instead focusing on the little bargaining process. But, realistically, they didn't actually establish enough facts about the case to argue those facts outside the show, I think.

[NineSpine]

In our world. We don't know how they're defined in the MCU. Again; Mr. Immortal is clear that he actually, legally dies every time. It's a whole scene. Explicitly making the point that while we'd all agree he's not really dead, for all legal purposes, he is.

When he says "legally dead" he is using it to distinguish from "medically dead". You are treating it like it is to distinguish from "illegally dead". Its no different than saying "Well, morally the car isn't mine, but I forged the paperwork so well that legally it is".

[Svifnymr]

Heck, it would have been interesting if they'd referenced some new law brought about by half the world dying and coming back 5 years later. It's entirely possible that he does NOW have something specific legality wise, in the MCU.

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When he says "legally dead" he is using it to distinguish from "medically dead". You are treating it like it is to distinguish from "illegally dead". Its no different than saying "Well, morally the car isn't mine, but I forged the paperwork so well that legally it is".

The difference would be that he DIED, but is not currently now DEAD, but I mean that does happen with people that get resuscitated and I don't think it's very complicated.

[Biomega]

There is a term for dying "in the legal sense" but not really being dead: Committing fraud.

Faking your death is not illegal in most jurisdictions, nor is it fraud in and of itself.

Also, you could well argue that this case is very much outside of the intent of the law as written, which takes death to be a permanent, irremediable state - and that's true for, well, pretty much everyone EXCEPT Mr. Immortal (and maybe some other superheroes, who knows). That doesn't automatically mean the law will treat him differently than every other person; in fact, as per most legal doctrines, it HAS TO treat him the same as everyone else.

There's tons of everyday concepts enshrined in law that could, in principle, fall to pieces once you break the assumed rules of nature. "Legal person" for example, would break itself against someone with the power to copy himself at will, making it impossible to discern who was/is the original and whether there even IS such a thing as "the original". And so on.

You could well argue - and Mr. Immortal actually does in the show - that he absolutely "dies"; it just doesn't last forever. You have no proof that other deaths last forever, either, by the way. We just have never seen it not last forever, and all we know about the universe SUGGESTS it lasts forever; but e.g. religions might disagree. So that's not even necessarily a legal defense, since when you throw out established natural order, the permanence of other deaths might not be provable, either. In which case a "temporary" death such as Mr. Immortal's would have to be treated the same as other deaths, which might be as impermanent, just over longer time scales. Not to mention what could happen with resurrections - are the people who got blipped in the MCU not also victims of "temporary death", for example? Theirs lasted a few years, Mr. Immortal's lasted a few seconds (or minutes or however long) - a difference that the law doesn't necessarily have to care about as it is written.

Most definitions of death in a legal sense rest on "common medical consensus". They also employ language about "irreversible" states, however historically we've found that this doesn't hold - as medical technology improves, previously irreversible states can in fact become reversible. And since we KNOW that resurrection even on a planetary scale is a thing (Blip and all) that's not exactly a solid leg to stand on. Which means Mr. Immortal could simply argue that as long as he kills himself in a way that under "common medical consensus" would constitute undisputable "death", the fact that he alone happens to survive it would not allow the law, as written, to apply differently to him.

It would be something that would need to be argued in court, of course, and there are possible counterarguments (such as e.g. him knowing it won't actually cause irreversible cessation of life). But it's not like it's clear-cut by any means. And it would likely require a revision of extant law to account for super-powered individuals.

That's a different show entirely, though

[Endus]

When he says "legally dead" he is using it to distinguish from "medically dead". You are treating it like it is to distinguish from "illegally dead". Its no different than saying "Well, morally the car isn't mine, but I forged the paperwork so well that legally it is".

If you forged paperwork, the car isn't legally yours; the forgery is illegal.

Yes, he says that to distinguish from "medically dead"; he legally "dies" even if, medically, he's still alive and kicking. That doesn't make the legality "illegal", somehow, it means the law doesn't jive well with reality. This isn't that unusual. People have been declared legally dead and had to get that reversed, often when they go missing, like someone in a plane crash who survives for years on a deserted island and is finally recovered.

It's just that usually, they make an effort to get that legal death reversed, where Mr. Immortal is totally cool with it.

There's also precedents that could be cited with some amnesia patients who lose all memory and rebuild a new life before having someone recognize them and tie them back to their previous life, which may remain legally "dead" as they just continue with their new life as long as there aren't any further legal complications resulting from past debts or something.

And hey; maybe Mr. Immortal's wrong about that legal status, but I'd need to see that demonstrated in-universe, not applying real-world legal codes to the fictional setting.

[Biomega]

The difference would be that he DIED, but is not currently now DEAD, but I mean that does happen with people that get resuscitated and I don't think it's very complicated.

No. This is a common mistake - when someone said "I died during surgery" or whatever, that is common parlance only; it's NOT a legal "death", and it's not a medical "death", either. It's simply vernacular shorthand for certain functions stopping temporarily (measurable EEG/EKG usually) but it's not "death" under any strict definition.

Mr. Immortal's case is special because it's outside the norm - the things he went through kill EVERYONE save for him and potentially a few other superpowered individuals. Laws have to be universally applicable, or make specific accommodations for exceptions. You can't just go "yes it's true for everyone EXCEPT this one person" under most legal doctrines.

[Ivanstone]

In our world. We don't know how they're defined in the MCU. Again; Mr. Immortal is clear that he actually, legally dies every time. It's a whole scene. Explicitly making the point that while we'd all agree he's not really dead, for all legal purposes, he is.

He isn’t legally dead. Being declared dead is a legal process that requires a physician.

[Biomega]

He isn’t legally dead. Being declared dead is a legal process that requires a physician.

I think it's a different kind of "legally dead" they mean here. What you mean is being DECLARED dead in person or in absentia, a specific process with specific protocols. But what he means is that under legal definitions of death as applied to any arbitrary human being, he'd have died. It just happens that he and he alone doesn't get the same result from the same legal test; but that doesn't have to necessarily mean the law has to treat him differently. It also doesn't necessarily mean it does NOT have to treat him differently, but that would have to be ruled on and therefore argued first.

[NineSpine]

Faking your death is not illegal in most jurisdictions, nor is it fraud in and of itself.

Also, you could well argue that this case is very much outside of the intent of the law as written, which takes death to be a permanent, irremediable state - and that's true for, well, pretty much everyone EXCEPT Mr. Immortal (and maybe some other superheroes, who knows). That doesn't automatically mean the law will treat him differently than every other person; in fact, as per most legal doctrines, it HAS TO treat him the same as everyone else.

There's tons of everyday concepts enshrined in law that could, in principle, fall to pieces once you break the assumed rules of nature. "Legal person" for example, would break itself against someone with the power to copy himself at will, making it impossible to discern who was/is the original and whether there even IS such a thing as "the original". And so on.

You could well argue - and Mr. Immortal actually does in the show - that he absolutely "dies"; it just doesn't last forever. You have no proof that other deaths last forever, either, by the way. We just have never seen it not last forever, and all we know about the universe SUGGESTS it lasts forever; but e.g. religions might disagree. So that's not even necessarily a legal defense, since when you throw out established natural order, the permanence of other deaths might not be provable, either. In which case a "temporary" death such as Mr. Immortal's would have to be treated the same as other deaths, which might be as impermanent, just over longer time scales. Not to mention what could happen with resurrections - are the people who got blipped in the MCU not also victims of "temporary death", for example? Theirs lasted a few years, Mr. Immortal's lasted a few seconds (or minutes or however long) - a difference that the law doesn't necessarily have to care about as it is written.

Most definitions of death in a legal sense rest on "common medical consensus". They also employ language about "irreversible" states, however historically we've found that this doesn't hold - as medical technology improves, previously irreversible states can in fact become reversible. And since we KNOW that resurrection even on a planetary scale is a thing (Blip and all) that's not exactly a solid leg to stand on. Which means Mr. Immortal could simply argue that as long as he kills himself in a way that under "common medical consensus" would constitute undisputable "death", the fact that he alone happens to survive it would not allow the law, as written, to apply differently to him.

It would be something that would need to be argued in court, of course, and there are possible counterarguments (such as e.g. him knowing it won't actually cause irreversible cessation of life). But it's not like it's clear-cut by any means. And it would likely require a revision of extant law to account for super-powered individuals.

That's a different show entirely, though

Again, legal death is defined as irreversible, so the fact that he comes back to life is a moot point.

I'm not saying that faking your death is illegal in and of itself. What is illegal is using it to defraud others, which he did.

There's also a whole second issue, which is that he indicates committing crimes to fake the deaths, such as "walking into traffic" on purpose, which is very clearly and unambiguously a crime, and he then escapes consequences for it by faking his death.

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If you forged paperwork, the car isn't legally yours; the forgery is illegal.

Yes, he says that to distinguish from "medically dead"; he legally "dies" even if, medically, he's still alive and kicking. That doesn't make the legality "illegal", somehow, it means the law doesn't jive well with reality. This isn't that unusual. People have been declared legally dead and had to get that reversed, often when they go missing, like someone in a plane crash who survives for years on a deserted island and is finally recovered.

It's just that usually, they make an effort to get that legal death reversed, where Mr. Immortal is totally cool with it.

There's also precedents that could be cited with some amnesia patients who lose all memory and rebuild a new life before having someone recognize them and tie them back to their previous life, which may remain legally "dead" as they just continue with their new life as long as there aren't any further legal complications resulting from past debts or something.

And hey; maybe Mr. Immortal's wrong about that legal status, but I'd need to see that demonstrated in-universe, not applying real-world legal codes to the fictional setting.

Again, he doesn't say that it is legal as opposed to illegal, he said that he is legally as opposed to medically dead, which is no different than saying that the stolen car is legally mine (as in on the books mine) versus morally mine.

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I think it's a different kind of "legally dead" they mean here. What you mean is being DECLARED dead in person or in absentia, a specific process with specific protocols. But what he means is that under legal definitions of death as applied to any arbitrary human being, he'd have died. It just happens that he and he alone doesn't get the same result from the same legal test; but that doesn't have to necessarily mean the law has to treat him differently. It also doesn't necessarily mean it does NOT have to treat him differently, but that would have to be ruled on and therefore argued first.

For the eightieth time: Legally dead means IRREVERSIBLY dead.