[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Darththeo]

Nope its a fact, Wanda steal the movie, and i think the actress did a wonderfull job. Strange arc is literally a rehash from what they did to him before, he "not holding the knife, he already went trough that arc when he gave up the time stone and let other people save the world instead of himself. So, again, much shit to say about "re-doing" or "predictable" stuff hun?

Note: Syeg did not watch the first Strange or Infinity War.

Hum, not rly, i would rather have then both team up and fight the bad guy, like it was intended.

So a completely different movie.

[Syegfryed]

Time to just put someone on ignore so I can't contribute to such massive derailments.

>could simple ignore and not derail the thread
>instead derail the thread even more.

[Koriani]

Yeah...I spoke a page too soon, thanking people for staying on topic at least..

And on that off-topic - here's one for ya:

Wanda's actions don't have to make any sense at all, no matter how one breaks it down. She was 100% corrupted and under the control of the Darkhold. Darkhold don't care about logic. Darkhold don't give a SHIT what is easier to do, or what makes the most sense, or what could be done to achieve the same goal (for Wanda) without killing America. Irrelevant. Even if America had said, "Here I give this to you, you don't have to kill me..." Darkhold would have made Wanda believe she had to kill her anyway. Because that's the Darkhold's own purpose.

I mean that /was/ the point and purpose of the Darkhold, itself. The point that makes no character development happening in WandaVision mean jack - because the Darkhold auto-magically negates all that by possessing and subsuming the Freewill of its reader.

Of course movie-Wanda wouldn't be happy with her kids in some other multi-verse; that's logic the Darkhold wouldn't allow to work. You don't have to spend two brain cells trying to 'figure out', or justify, anything Wanda says or does in the movie. Because Darkhold. Any lapse in logic, anything her friends said that would have 'made sense' and 'worked' for a 'normal person', was never going to work with Movie-Wanda because she's already under the possession of the Darkhold.

So its not 'bad writing' - its writing a plot that fits that narrative (of possession by evil book) of the movie. It doesn't need to worry about that character reasoning making sense - because in the end, its an evil/demonic book doing the 'thinking'. Now - Whether you think that's a stupid plot device, or a writing cop-out, is another topic But that doesn't make the plot build around that device, 'bad writing.'

I mean I'm not saying its great writing. At all. I felt a little miffed myself that I wasted the time (and superhero burnout) watching WandaVision only to have all of that be pointless because Movie-Wanda-Darkhold (and nothing else about the show, like Vision, Agatha, etc. had any relevance or mention). And MoM, as a movie, was for me, at most, a 'meh' movie. Perfectly fine, but nothing more.

But people doing the back and forth over Wanda's lack of logic/insight/normal reactions in MoM makes no sense to me - because she was, every second, already subsumed into the pages of the Darkhold. You could have had her 'actual, lore-correct, kids' standing right in front of her, and it wouldn't have mattered. Because she had already fully bought into the delusion the Darkhold was feeding her. (Which, at the very least, is an accurate portrayal of people who are having psychotic delusions. Logic is irrelevant, the delusion has its own.)

[Svifnymr]

There are tons of villains that fight each other. We don't see that much in the MCU, the closest is in What If?

Yeah, I just meant it in reference to defending Agatha. No need to make Agatha out to be a good guy, they can both be bad guys.

There are stories where Dr. Doom fights other villains. I think Magneto does a few times too. The funniest thing is with the DC and Marvel crossovers where you have Joker team up with Red Skull and then Joker finds out Red Skull is a nazi and decides that is time to fight him. Villains fighting villains work can work well in movies or shows.

Honestly, part of me is hoping when Dr Doom makes his MCU debut he is able to show how powerful he is by defeating villains the heroes struggle with.

I think MCU actually has the problem of killing off it's villains. Loki lasted longest, but Ultron was never killed off in comics or whatnot. Doom, hopefully, isn't just tossed in jail or killed, but if the heroes win it's because they foiled his scheme this time, but they can't touch him personally.

[Biomega]

I think MCU actually has the problem of killing off it's villains. Loki lasted longest, but Ultron was never killed off in comics or whatnot. Doom, hopefully, isn't just tossed in jail or killed, but if the heroes win it's because they foiled his scheme this time, but they can't touch him personally.

This is a general problem in (superhero) comics, though. How often did they have to go "haha 'twas only a clone/robot/illusion/etc." on a villain because they have to be defeated, but can't be killed off. Or something like Batman refusing to kill the Joker, only for him to break out of Arkham fifty different times (and let's not get into the cost of human lives this entails...).

I'm not sure a cinematic universe has that luxury without it coming off as uncomfortably, gratingly contrived. Loki is already hard at that border, where his constant he's dead OR IS HE?! shtick has become a meme onto itself.

[paxen]

Rewatched a couple of more episodes so up to episode 3 now.

Yeah, we're being gaslit by these braindead zombies, these trolls. She-hulk isn't *great* TV, it's true. But, like the MCU stuff in general, it's entertaining and a good watch. MCU tv shows took a step down in ambition and a step up in quality in 2022: Moon Knight, Ms Marvel and She-Hulk don't attempt the more complex story beats that Wandavision, Loki and F/WS tried and in the end failed at, they instead focus on finding new ways to entertain. She-Hulk does have a several moments that don't land, but they throw a lot of varied stuff at us - and a lot of it does hit, enough so that it's on the level of the other 2022 shows (moon knight and ms marvel), and better than what came before.

Wong, Blonsky and Dennis Bukowski are all entertaining guest stars. Mr Immortal and the wedding episode were low points the first time through, but there's still Madisynn, the retreat, Daredevil and then the most comic book accurate finale Marvel has ever made.

[Syegfryed]

MCU tv shows took a step down in ambition and a step up in quality in 2022: Moon Knight, Ms Marvel and She-Hulk don't attempt the more complex story beats that Wandavision, Loki and F/WS tried and in the end failed at, they instead focus on finding new ways to entertain. She-Hulk does have a several moments that don't land, but they throw a lot of varied stuff at us - and a lot of it does hit, enough so that it's on the level of the other 2022 shows (moon knight and ms marvel), and better than what came before.

ITs what i said previously, Marvel is focusing on quantity over quality. A lot of shows/movies in a short period of time, to target different audiences trying to increase income(instead of fewer shows for everyone), it ends up decreasing quality, with shows more or less rushed and unpolished(seeing how the CGI is lackluster sometimes).

I saw an intervew saying one a person who worked on ECHO, i think it was the producer, saying the show was rushed, even with the delay, and she would make better if it had more time

Wong, Blonsky and Dennis Bukowski are all entertaining guest stars. Mr Immortal and the wedding episode were low points the first time through, but there's still Madisynn, the retreat, Daredevil and then the most comic book accurate finale Marvel has ever made.

Mr Immortal rly was a pointless thing to have in the show, like, the people there didn't even seen to be that much of the age difference to be married with the same guy for years.

Wong, Blonsky and Murdock were definitely highlights, though i dread his tv-show if tis going to be mroe like the netflix or mroe like disney+.

[rhorle]

I saw an intervew saying one a person who worked on ECHO, i think it was the producer, saying the show was rushed, even with the delay, and she would make better if it had more time

She said she would do things differently if she had all the time in the world. Not that it would be better or imply that the current show isn't good. It was just a different process then she used on Better Call Saul because they had deadlines to meet and she wasn't part of the project from the start.

“It was really about finding a process in the moment that allowed me to get to some deadlines and, you know, be a little more flexible than I would have been if, you know, if I had all the time in the world I would have done it a little bit differently.”

Mr Immortal rly was a pointless thing to have in the show, like, the people there didn't even seen to be that much of the age difference to be married with the same guy for years.

Why would they have to be a vastly different age? He could just keep moving up in age over the years so all would be near the same age even though he married them when they were different ages. Only one was said to be an 18 year marriage. The same one who gave birth to his son. It is even possible he was married to more then one person at the same time. Normal people manage to do that all the time.

[Surfd]

at least she have one less body in her count which the movie flip flop a lot if she is super evil or not super evil like when she could ahve killed wong and Strange many times.

Yes, because I am absolutely convinced that Wanda gives a flying fuck about "body count" in that movie. Wanda. The super-witch driven batshit insane by a tome of pure chaos who is literally willing to do ANYTHING, including destroy other realities, in order to get what she wants. The Wanda who casually tossed a giant invisible murder demon into downtown New York, casually murdered dozens of sorcerers at Kamar Taj, and straight up destroyed the home base of an alternate-timeline Illuminati by forcefully possessing the body of another version of herself and brutally murdering multiple heroes from that timeline? That Wanda? That Wanda would 100% wring America out like a sponge and toss her desiccated husk in the disposal without a second thought.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, because I am absolutely convinced that Wanda gives a flying fuck about "body count" in that movie. Wanda. The super-witch driven batshit insane by a tome of pure evil who is literally willing to do ANYTHING, including destroy other realities, in order to get what she wants.

Yes, she, many times, could have killed Wong or Strange, instead, she just toss then across the room many times. Or, like she said previously, send monsters because she was being merciful. yeah, crap

Don't try to explain away the movie dumbness with more dumbness, there is the movie thread for that

[Surfd]

Yes, she, many times, could have killed Wong or Strange, instead, she just toss then across the room many times. Or, like she said previously, send monsters because she was being merciful. yeah, crap

Don't try to explain away the movie dumbness with more dumbness, there is the movie thread for that

Going to be 100% serious here, but: Do you even understand the basic fundamentals of what makes a good "super hero action movie" at all?

Like, for fuck sakes, 99% of super hero movies are literally built around shit like "Hero and villain have pointlessly drawn out fight scene for dramatic / entertainment effect" because that's literally what people come to watch the damn things for. If Superman or Batman were actually real, most of their actual villain encounters would more realistically end with the hero oneshotting the villain before the guy even realizes what happened.

Yes, Wanda could probably have killed Strange or Wong several times in various scenes in the movie. Likewise, Wong or Strange could probably have done the same in return as well. Either thing happening would have made a really, really fucking boring movie though.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, Wanda could probably have killed Strange or Wong several times in various scenes in the movie. Likewise, Wong or Strange could probably have done the same in return as well. Either thing happening would have made a really, really fucking boring movie though.

You are telling me super hero action movies need to be dumbed down, made nonsensical and/or retarded to be good? Its funny that when one argument fail its changed, now its not the movie that was dumb, its just that all super hero movies are dumb. There is a limit on suspension of disbelief that when you cross it become shit and immersion breaking. If it was just one or two times, ok, but it happens A LOT. You could give multiple reasons of why Wanda didn't kill then in the narrative. If the only reason she didn't was "because the movie would end or it would be boring" then its shit. You can make a compelling fight with stakes without making the villains morons who contradict themselves.

So this isn't me who do not understand, its y'all who are fine with low tier/mediocre things.

[Surfd]

You are telling me super hero action movies need to be dumbed down, made nonsensical and/or retarded to be good? Its funny that when one argument fail its changed, now its not the movie that was dumb, its just that all super hero movies are dumb.

YOU said that, not me. Don't stuff whatever bullshit misrepresentation of my point is floating around in the back of your head into my mouth. At no point did I suggest that they need to be dumb or nonsensical to be entertaining, or that all superhero movies are dumb.

There's no point in even attempting to discuss this shit with you if your response to basically everything is going to be to wildly twist what I am saying and put words in my mouth that are not even vaguely close to what I said.

[Darththeo]

YOU said that, not me. Don't stuff whatever bullshit misrepresentation of my point is floating around in the back of your head into my mouth. At no point did I suggest that they need to be dumb or nonsensical to be entertaining, or that all superhero movies are dumb.

There's no point in even attempting to discuss this shit with you if your response to basically everything is going to be to wildly twist what I am saying and put words in my mouth that are not even vaguely close to what I said.

If you applied logic to these movies. Strange can open a portal around someone's neck, close it and they are dead. Hell, doesn't even need to be the head, all they need to do is make sure the portal bisects a vital organ.

Hulk for most characters can simple toss them into orbit, which will kill most characters.

There is a certain level of bs that is accepted for this kind of movie. Because if characters behaved completely logically, the movie is over extremely quick.

And it isn't just superhero genre either that has this.

[Surfd]

If you applied logic to these movies. Strange can open a portal around someone's neck, close it and they are dead. Hell, doesn't even need to be the head, all they need to do is make sure the portal bisects a vital organ.

Hulk for most characters can simple toss them into orbit, which will kill most characters.

There is a certain level of bs that is accepted for this kind of movie. Because if characters behaved completely logically, the movie is over extremely quick.

And it isn't just superhero genre either that has this.

Oh, completely. That's kind of my point here. A huge amount of what happens in basically any action scene in any action movie is for dramatic / entertainment effect, otherwise the movies wouldn't be nearly as fun as they are to watch.

Like, take pretty much any of the James Bond movies with Daniel Craig. If they were realistic, Bond would be a broken crippled mess requiring months of physio to even function properly after basically any of the major fight scenes.

Dramatic contrivances like the villain toying with the hero instead of just obliterating him instantly are what makes the movies work. They are part and parcel of the genre.

[AcidicSyn]

If you applied logic to these movies. Strange can open a portal around someone's neck, close it and they are dead. Hell, doesn't even need to be the head, all they need to do is make sure the portal bisects a vital organ.

Hulk for most characters can simple toss them into orbit, which will kill most characters.

There is a certain level of bs that is accepted for this kind of movie. Because if characters behaved completely logically, the movie is over extremely quick.

And it isn't just superhero genre either that has this.

I always find this bit funny. I was watching an anime the other day that flat out made fun of itself and other media for this too. One of the characters has magic that lets her control the size of anything she pleases and she was fighting the protagonists. Someone interrupts the fight and calls bullshit, stating that if she really wanted to kill them she could have just inflated their organs until they popped.

was amusing.

[Darththeo]

Oh, completely. That's kind of my point here. A huge amount of what happens in basically any action scene in any action movie is for dramatic / entertainment effect, otherwise the movies wouldn't be nearly as fun as they are to watch.

Like, take pretty much any of the James Bond movies with Daniel Craig. If they were realistic, Bond would be a broken crippled mess requiring months of physio to even function properly after basically any of the major fight scenes.

Dramatic contrivances like the villain toying with the hero instead of just obliterating him instantly are what makes the movies work. They are part and parcel of the genre.

Seriously, Syeg not realizing all movies are "dumb" is beyond me. And all MCU have "dumb" scenes that if you stopped and thought about it, make no sense. Seriously, I can point out incredibly stupid things in all the movies of the MCU where the story would end or play out far differently.

She-hulk points out some of those tropes in the MCU that are kind of dumb. For example, the habit of having the final battle be like vs like all the time. A good number have it. I just wish She-hulk played more into that.

- - - Updated - - -

I always find this bit funny. I was watching an anime the other day that flat out made fun of itself and other media for this too. One of the characters has magic that lets her control the size of anything she pleases and she was fighting the protagonists. Someone interrupts the fight and calls bullshit, stating that if she really wanted to kill them she could have just inflated their organs until they popped.

was amusing.

Yes, the Meta jokes in things like that are hilarious.

Also, that sounds like Fairy Tail to me. But, given that so many anime have similar things, it could be another.

[AcidicSyn]

Seriously, Syeg not realizing all movies are "dumb" is beyond me. And all MCU have "dumb" scenes that if you stopped and thought about it, make no sense. Seriously, I can point out incredibly stupid things in all the movies of the MCU where the story would end or play out far differently.

She-hulk points out some of those tropes in the MCU that are kind of dumb. For example, the habit of having the final battle be like vs like all the time. A good number have it. I just wish She-hulk played more into that.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, the Meta jokes in things like that are hilarious.

Also, that sounds like Fairy Tail to me. But, given that so many anime have similar things, it could be another.

Lol ding ding, it was indeed Fairy Tail.

[Endus]

Seriously, Syeg not realizing all movies are "dumb" is beyond me. And all MCU have "dumb" scenes that if you stopped and thought about it, make no sense. Seriously, I can point out incredibly stupid things in all the movies of the MCU where the story would end or play out far differently.

She-hulk points out some of those tropes in the MCU that are kind of dumb. For example, the habit of having the final battle be like vs like all the time. A good number have it. I just wish She-hulk played more into that.

My overall feeling of the show in retrospect is that the 4th-wall stuff meta stuff was the only way it really stood out, and they should have leaned into it more, with more She-Hulk commentary about stupid shit as the show goes on, calling out the silliness of tropes in the moment rather than packing it all into the finale. There's legitimately good bits in there around the meta stuff; everything with Blomsky is great. But while Dan Slott's run on She-Hulk is one of my favorite comic runs, I don't actually think it was a good fit here in retrospect. It's too much about She-Hulk trying to figure out who she is, and the metacommentary is about what the MCU is. And the two are at odds, because if the writing is tropey enough to annoy her, we can't really take it seriously as self-exploratory.

It might have worked better with a serious dedication to a central core as Jen tries to work out her stuff, and stupid tropey bullshit kept inserting itself into her life, the way Titania did. If Jen was more fed-up by that rather than eager to brawl, which really didn't make that much sense, it would've flowed together better, and you'd get a better feeling of the writers/K.E.V.I.N trying to antagonise her because that's their plot rather than trying to make it more consistent throughout, like they did. More of a contrast between the "good" bits and the intentionally "bad" ones.

[paxen]

It might have worked better with a serious dedication to a central core as Jen tries to work out her stuff, and stupid tropey bullshit kept inserting itself into her life, the way Titania did. If Jen was more fed-up by that rather than eager to brawl, which really didn't make that much sense, it would've flowed together better, and you'd get a better feeling of the writers/K.E.V.I.N trying to antagonise her because that's their plot rather than trying to make it more consistent throughout, like they did. More of a contrast between the "good" bits and the intentionally "bad" ones.

The show didn't try to be gonzo *enough*. They went for deadpool-type fourth wall breaks, while She-hulk has always been feuding with the writer and editor. I like your version a lot, maybe Jen is bickering with Jessica Gao all the way, Gao tries to pass the buck to Kevin a few times and at the end Jen is just fed up and we get the ending we had where she heads out to find Kevin, or K.E.V.I.N. as it turns out.