Poll: Is the ETC a viable class concept?

This poll will close on 2022-11-27 at 12:54 AM

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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Warlocks weren't an expansion class, and DKs were implemented while Arthas was still "alive".
    Which again, I ask what is the relevance?

    Illidan wasn't 'alive' when Demon Hunters ended up being introduced either. He existed before, and came back after. I'm not sure why you're even making a point of this as though it matters.

    Even Evokers exist well after Deathwing has been killed, and they were created by him.

    I disagree. I think Blizzard has shown what direction they're going with the traditional, D&D style Bards. That is as appendages to the Rogue class in some form at some point in the future. In fact, I don't even believe they're going to call the bardic class a "Bard".
    Yet even my Naga example isn't a traditional DnD style Bard? Again, I'm wondering why you're making these wild assumptions here with no real rational basis behind them other than 'I can't see it'.

    Sure! I just thought of the possibility of an Explores League-based class today. I'll admit that I was wrong about the ETC being the only viable option for a bardic class. In fact, I believe that an Explorer's League-based bardic class is a far more viable option given the rising popularity of those characters.
    I think it'd be interesting to have something based on them, whether it's a Bard or something new.

    I kind of think the entire Archaeology profession should be revamped and given much more prominence since these characters have become so much more popular as of late.

    TBF, I was always aware of Naga-based "bards". Again, I simply don't view such a concept as viable. It would be strange for a Human or Elf to be a naga-based class.
    Any more than a Human or Elf would be a Pandaren-based class, really?

    If a Human or Elf could learn Martial Arts, surely they could learn to play music?

    Well consider that Demon Hunter and DK players are Illidari and undead respectively, which means that the only way this works is if the player is a Naga, and a naga only. That is yet another strike against the concept.
    You can't teach just anyone to be Illidari or a DK, but you could surely teach anyone to play music and be a Bard.

    You're literally explaining the Pandaren Monk situation. Not all Monks are Pandaren, they teach others their cultural way of combat.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-06 at 09:52 PM.

  2. #462
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which again, I ask what is the relevance?
    It's rather difficult to build an expansion class based on a dead character who isn't even a part of that class.

    I highly doubt anyone considers Hellscream a Bard. I also highly doubt you could create an expansion based on such a concept, and create a class based on such a concept.


    Yet even my Naga example isn't a traditional DnD style Bard? Again, I'm wondering why you're making these wild assumptions here with no real rational basis behind them other than 'I can't see it'.
    Sure it is. It's characters utilizing musical magic. The source just happens to be naga. The only thing that would give it some edge would be the players being Naga themselves. Again, I simply don't believe Blizzard is interested in making a class based on music. I know its something that Metzen despised personally, and I have yet to see Blizzard show an inkling of movement towards a viable (traditional) bard concept.


    I think it'd be interesting to have something based on them, whether it's a Bard or something new.

    I kind of think the entire Archaeology profession should be revamped and given much more prominence since these characters have become so much more popular as of late.
    I'm pretty sure Archeology is a dead profession, and it is interesting how Blizzard is pushing the LoE and Rafaam into WoW, and making them the main stars of Hearthstone. Again, if HotS was dead, I would be anticipating them showing up in that game as well.

    That said, a class based on those characters is a long shot to be sure. However, I feel they have a better chance than bards.


    Any more than a Human or Elf would be a Pandaren-based class, really?

    If a Human or Elf could learn Martial Arts, surely they could learn to play music?

    Just like all Monks are Pandaren?
    We had examples of Pandaren teaching others their skills way back in vanilla, and we had human and elf monks long before MoP, so none of that was a stretch. I feel if anything, the Monk class showed us that Blizzard wasn't going to make a classic class into a cookie-cutter D&D knockoff. WoW classes were going to be loaded with Blizzard-specific concepts.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's rather difficult to build an expansion class based on a dead character who isn't even a part of that class.

    I highly doubt anyone considers Hellscream a Bard. I also highly doubt you could create an expansion based on such a concept, and create a class based on such a concept.
    That's the beauty of the Bard's theme. It's all about honoring the Glory of fallen heroes and having them continue to inspire people after they've been torn from this world.

    Sure it is. It's characters utilizing musical magic. The source just happens to be naga. The only thing that would give it some edge would be the players being Naga themselves. Again, I simply don't believe Blizzard is interested in making a class based on music. I know its something that Metzen despised personally, and I have yet to see Blizzard show an inkling of movement towards a viable (traditional) bard concept.
    And all races have individuals who are highly skilled in music and magic. Elves and Humans especially.
    The only difference here is the 'source happens to be Naga', nothing else you mentioned really explains why you think Naga have an edge over something that many races have been shown to have an affinity for.

    Even Orcs pounding on drums gives off a magical effect that boosts their allies damage.

    We had examples of Pandaren teaching others their skills way back in vanilla, and we had human and elf monks long before MoP, so none of that was a stretch. I feel if anything, the Monk class showed us that Blizzard wasn't going to make a classic class into a cookie-cutter D&D knockoff. WoW classes were going to be loaded with Blizzard-specific concepts.
    Again, what about a Bard class built around music abilities that we've seen Naga introduce into the game make this any different? Naga have a direct association to Elves and Music since they have a shared lineage, and this is even explained through the Windrunners having musical aptitude in the lore. The Naga don't have anything specific to their physiology that allows them to sing Hymns and Songs or play musical instruments. This all owes to their heritage as former Highbourne who spent their time admiring things of beauty and creating art with their magic.

    And like I said many times, if they want to merge in ETC style Metal concepts or the pounding Wardrums of Hellscream into this class, they absolutely could, because there's nothing specific to Naga about the concept of 'magical singing'. All that I'm implying is the Nagas would open this up to being a new class, while the nuances of what actual music is being played could be flavoured by the various races in the game. Just like how Paladins and Druids aren't of one specific culture, even though it is the Humans and Night Elves who are the main sources for these classes.

    The friendly Naga would introduce a Bard class, teach others to be Bards and of the importance of using cultural lore to inspire those around them, and every race taking their own spin on the class. Forsaken could embrace 'Death Metal', Orcs could be all about Wardrumming, Elves play their harps, lutes and flutes, and Gnomes could be all about the kazoos.

  4. #464
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would say it's more requirements than a path..
    ... In other words, yes, you're saying it's mandatory to class creation. Which is a fallacy you're engaging, as you're not only stating your own opinions as facts, but also essentially stating as fact that Blizzard's class developers are beholden to your opinions.

    Yes, a Warcraft hero Character. I never said "must have NPCs in WoW to allow a class", which is what you said in your post.
    That is basically the same thing in this context. Because World of Warcraft is Warcraft's main venue.

    What's the hero's name?
    Blizzard doesn't follow your rules, so I fail to see why I should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  5. #465
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... In other words, yes, you're saying it's mandatory to class creation. Which is a fallacy you're engaging, as you're not only stating your own opinions as facts, but also essentially stating as fact that Blizzard's class developers are beholden to your opinions.
    I'm merely basing class creation on the previous 4 expansion class entries.

    That is basically the same thing in this context. Because World of Warcraft is Warcraft's main venue.
    It's important to note that the hero characters that the expansion classes were based on were hero characters before WoW.

    Blizzard doesn't follow your rules, so I fail to see why I should.
    It's not my rules, it's Blizzard's.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's the beauty of the Bard's theme. It's all about honoring the Glory of fallen heroes and having them continue to inspire people after they've been torn from this world.

    And all races have individuals who are highly skilled in music and magic. Elves and Humans especially.
    The only difference here is the 'source happens to be Naga', nothing else you mentioned really explains why you think Naga have an edge over something that many races have been shown to have an affinity for.

    Even Orcs pounding on drums gives off a magical effect that boosts their allies damage.


    Again, what about a Bard class built around music abilities that we've seen Naga introduce into the game make this any different? Naga have a direct association to Elves and Music since they have a shared lineage, and this is even explained through the Windrunners having musical aptitude in the lore. The Naga don't have anything specific to their physiology that allows them to sing Hymns and Songs or play musical instruments. This all owes to their heritage as former Highbourne who spent their time admiring things of beauty and creating art with their magic.

    And like I said many times, if they want to merge in ETC style Metal concepts or the pounding Wardrums of Hellscream into this class, they absolutely could, because there's nothing specific to Naga about the concept of 'magical singing'. All that I'm implying is the Nagas would open this up to being a new class, while the nuances of what actual music is being played could be flavoured by the various races in the game. Just like how Paladins and Druids aren't of one specific culture, even though it is the Humans and Night Elves who are the main sources for these classes.

    The friendly Naga would introduce a Bard class, teach others to be Bards and of the importance of using cultural lore to inspire those around them, and every race taking their own spin on the class. Forsaken could embrace 'Death Metal', Orcs could be all about Wardrumming, Elves play their harps, lutes and flutes, and Gnomes could be all about the kazoos.
    No offense, but I felt like I've answered all of this before multiple times. Again, I don't see a scenario where Blizzard creates a Bard class based on music. Even those concepts you keep bringing up just seem completely out of place. It simply doesn't fit how Blizzard designs WoW classes. That probably explains why Amun was getting so many "It doesn't fit WoW" comments in his excellent Bard write up. Like I said, if Blizzard does a Bardic class, it's not going to be music based/focused.

  6. #466
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm merely basing class creation on the previous 4 expansion class entries.
    Which are your own personal observations. Cool. Great. However, like I said, those are your own personal conclusions based on your own personal observations. And the problem here is that you always try to force your own personal conclusions on people when they come up with their own class ideas.

    It's important to note that the hero characters that the expansion classes were based on were hero characters before WoW.
    ... Chen Stormstout was no hero. At all. He was just a traveling brewer.

    It's not my rules, it's Blizzard's.
    Stop with the bullshit. Those your rules. They're your own arbitrary rules. To say "those are Blizzard's rules" is incredibly arrogant, not to mention demonstrably wrong. Blizzard says 'fuck all' to your rules, as people pointed out numerous times. Because, by your rules, classes such as the evoker and monk would not exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No offense, but I felt like I've answered all of this before multiple times. Again, I don't see a scenario where Blizzard creates a Bard class based on music. Even those concepts you keep bringing up just seem completely out of place. It simply doesn't fit how Blizzard designs WoW classes. That probably explains why Amun was getting so many "It doesn't fit WoW" comments in his excellent Bard write up. Like I said, if Blizzard does a Bardic class, it's not going to be music based/focused.
    Er... If you don't think they are going to be music based, then what exactly do you think a Bard is?

    That's like saying a Tinker class would not be tech-based/focused or a Mage class would not be based on magic. What would these classes be then?

  8. #468
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er... If you don't think they are going to be music based, then what exactly do you think a Bard is?

    That's like saying a Tinker class would not be tech-based/focused or a Mage class would not be based on magic. What would these classes be then?
    Like I said, not a Bard, but bardic. Some examples:

    https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Bard/LoL

    https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/deckard/

    https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Orator_(Tactics)

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well look at what the Tinker gains from its hero units/characters. We have the concept of mech suits, upgradeable turrets, pocket factories, Claw packs, etc. which makes the concept unique, and distinctly Blizzard. At the very least, it gives us a direction and a base from which to consider how a Tinker class would operate in WoW. The same occurred with the eventual Dracthyr Evoker class. We had multiple draconic heroes (Primarily Alexstraza, but also Chromie and Deathwing) who had original and unique abilities. From that, we could develop a unique and interesting class that merged race and class together.

    The issue with the Bard is that we have no such base to work with. People are talking about merging Lorewalkers with a random sub-boss in Stratholme that used a bow, or combining a Kyrian with a Kodorider. There's no cohesion there. Cohersion comes with a hero character that can give the concept a definitive direction.
    I can think of a few Hero classes that would offer something new:

    Battle Mage: wears plate, uses a Spell Shield and Weapon while also casting spells and absorbing damage (Tank Class)

    Woodland Ranger: warrior style play with ranged weapons, woodland creature affinity, and gets a bonus to all damage and healing when in a natural setting, and loses the buff in a constructed setting.

    Blood Hunters: Similiar to the witcher, they are a melee class who rely on potions the same way the monk relies on brews, and also incorporates blood magic into their abilities

    Dark Druid: Less about nature damage and only shapeshifts into darker forms such as a dragon (tank), worg (dps melee), Naga (dps ranged) and Sandbox tree (restoration) whose dark healing powers are only rivaled by the razorsharp spikes on its bark.

    Mountain King - Hero class who shape shifts into an avatar and is immune to most magic damage (tank)

    Summoner / Conjurer - Based on the fight, this class can summon a ranged or melee familiar to help hold aggro and do increased damage and has the ability to heal or destroy the conjured and can resummon in combat if the companion falls in the fight (ranged DPS)

    Everyone seems to be laboring under the misconception that one or more classes, if properly etched out and executed with WoW/Diablo lore couldn't perform just as well as Tinker, or Bard, or any other suggested class. The idea behind having a new hero class is to make it something we don't already have somewhere in the game, or redesign it to feel like something brand new. I like tinker. I dislike bard. I love necromancer. I dislike barbarian. I like ranger (light or dark). I dislike assassin. Getting everyone to agree is impossible. But if we can build a whole expansion based on one little panda from WC3, certainly we can review other classes within Blizz as a whole and maybe even cross over with the families. Imagine the addition of a Necromancer from D3 and an entire expansion built on crossing over into Sanctuary (the mortal realm) after a portal is discovered in a cavern below the Azeroth chamber of Silithus, and physically moves us into a new Universe where nothing makes sense, and the NPCs of D1-D3 make an appearance and we help heroes like Tyriel.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  10. #470
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
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    I would assume if a Bard was to exist, it would be most like the ones from Dragon Age. A combination of lore masters,
    story-tellers, singers, as well as spies and assassins. That interpretation would most likely feel the most WoW-like.

    As for how they'd ever introduce them, simple. You have the entire other side of Azeroth left unexplored. Some race(s)
    there could have developed the class archetype of the Bard (called something else entirely under WoW's setting) and thus,
    how we get our Bard class.

    Kind of like how the Tinker idea will never happen. However, a BETTER variation for it would be something along the lines
    of Vi from League of Legends uses giant mechanical gauntlets to fight. They'd if anything, come up with some kind of mish
    mash between a fighter and some kind of techno-wizard for your "tinker" class.

    Anyway, in regards to the Bard, THAT is literally the best viable option. Not this laughably absurd idea that Teriz came up with.
    Last edited by ThatsOurEric; 2022-09-07 at 04:04 AM.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    To be fair, the way D&D tied bard to music was always problematic mostly because the material they used for inspiration had bards that were first and foremost heralds. The focus of the bard is earthly knowledge as much as it is music. You could have Reshad and Cho be Warcraft bards.
    don't forget the hot mess that was how Bards were implemented back in the day

    so, okay. Back in early D&D, if you wanted to be a bard? You had to start as a Fighter. Then, between levels 5 to 8, you need to Dual Class to thief. Not multi-class, dual class, which was a thing only humans had because Gary Gygax had a Thing for humans getting exclusive stuff, and pretty much meant you had to be a human (until later splatbooks added alternate bard options and 2E opened it everyone because, frankly, this part alone is dumb) to be a bard, or a half-elf. Dual-classing pretty much set to back to level 1 and when you hit that 5-8, you'd get your Fighter abilities back. But, then, as a Thief, between levels 5 to 9 this time, you had to multi-class as a Druid

    And this stack of three classes somehow made you a bard and able to play musical instruments. I'm reasonably certain various old MMOs that did this class stack thing made a bit more sense than this

    you may or may not be surprised to know that all of that was ditched in 2E and they just made Bard the regular jack of all trades its known for

  12. #472
    The first one isn't even a Bard, it's literally a character named 'Bard' that otherwise has nothing to do with the Bard class.

    Deckard and Orators don't really have any combat-viable roots in Warcraft either, much less so than Music does.

  13. #473
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    don't forget the hot mess that was how Bards were implemented back in the day

    so, okay. Back in early D&D, if you wanted to be a bard? You had to start as a Fighter. Then, between levels 5 to 8, you need to Dual Class to thief. Not multi-class, dual class, which was a thing only humans had because Gary Gygax had a Thing for humans getting exclusive stuff, and pretty much meant you had to be a human (until later splatbooks added alternate bard options and 2E opened it everyone because, frankly, this part alone is dumb) to be a bard, or a half-elf. Dual-classing pretty much set to back to level 1 and when you hit that 5-8, you'd get your Fighter abilities back. But, then, as a Thief, between levels 5 to 9 this time, you had to multi-class as a Druid

    And this stack of three classes somehow made you a bard and able to play musical instruments. I'm reasonably certain various old MMOs that did this class stack thing made a bit more sense than this

    you may or may not be surprised to know that all of that was ditched in 2E and they just made Bard the regular jack of all trades its known for
    Hey AD&D though added the Halfling whistler, a halfling bard who used whistling to control the weather. That makes up for the OG insanity to me.

  14. #474
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    Everyone seems to be laboring under the misconception that one or more classes, if properly etched out and executed with WoW/Diablo lore couldn't perform just as well as Tinker, or Bard, or any other suggested class. The idea behind having a new hero class is to make it something we don't already have somewhere in the game, or redesign it to feel like something brand new. I like tinker. I dislike bard. I love necromancer. I dislike barbarian. I like ranger (light or dark). I dislike assassin. Getting everyone to agree is impossible. But if we can build a whole expansion based on one little panda from WC3, certainly we can review other classes within Blizz as a whole and maybe even cross over with the families. Imagine the addition of a Necromancer from D3 and an entire expansion built on crossing over into Sanctuary (the mortal realm) after a portal is discovered in a cavern below the Azeroth chamber of Silithus, and physically moves us into a new Universe where nothing makes sense, and the NPCs of D1-D3 make an appearance and we help heroes like Tyriel.
    The problem with your suggestions is that they're either already part of existing classes, or there's no hero character to justify their existence.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The first one isn't even a Bard, it's literally a character named 'Bard' that otherwise has nothing to do with the Bard class.
    TBF, he uses Chimes to summon spirits.

    Again, not a traditional Bard, but bardic. If I were designing an Explorer class, I would utilize the spirit finding mechanic and turn it into a relic finding mechanic that could power the abilities of the class.

    The bard is a standard playable character class in many editions of the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game.[1] The bard class is versatile, capable of combat and of magic (divine magic in earlier editions, arcane magic in later editions). Bards use their artistic talents to induce magical effects.[2] The class is loosely based on the special magic that music holds in stories such as the Pied Piper of Hamelin,[2] and in earlier versions was much more akin to being a Celtic Fili or a Norse Skald, although these elements have largely been removed in later editions. Listed inspirations for bards include Taliesin, Homer, Will Scarlet and Alan-a-Dale.
    Using artistic talents to induce magical effects is very broad. That could be speech, drawing, or the use of books and relics. That can be codified into an Explorer class.

    Another example of something bardic would be Grimstroke from DotA2:

    https://www.dota2.com/hero/grimstroke

    Deckard and Orators don't really have any combat-viable roots in Warcraft either, much less so than Music does.
    No, but their abilities could be applied to Explorer heroes. Deckard especially utilizes relics, artifacts, scrolls, and ancient texts in combat. Easily transferable to characters like Reno Jackson, Brann Bronzebeard, Finley Mrrgleton, Rafaam, and/or Elise Starseeker if so desired.

  15. #475
    Bard from LoL is my main champion and what I can say, that it's not only the name, but whole his lore is based on music, harmony etc, so in fact he is music themed character. Visually he's more like Zereth Mortis pals and he's a construct like them and like his followers, chimes, Maduli and various spirits of cosmic harmony which in Runeterra's cosmology is one of primal powers like Warcraft's light, arcane, void etc, and tool of creation of existance and consciousness out of chaos. That concept of Bard class really fits to me personally and I can see him as a good example. Much more than E.T.C. thing.

    Btw his name was given by humans based on his musical theme, not just random name.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey AD&D though added the Halfling whistler, a halfling bard who used whistling to control the weather. That makes up for the OG insanity to me.
    I have a soft spot for it, but. The whole dual classing/multi classing split was a hot mess and I am happy it was ditched.

  17. #477
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i3ackero View Post
    Bard from LoL is my main champion and what I can say, that it's not only the name, but whole his lore is based on music, harmony etc, so in fact he is music themed character. Visually he's more like Zereth Mortis pals and he's a construct like them and like his followers, chimes, Maduli and various spirits of cosmic harmony which in Runeterra's cosmology is one of primal powers like Warcraft's light, arcane, void etc, and tool of creation of existance and consciousness out of chaos. That concept of Bard class really fits to me personally and I can see him as a good example. Much more than E.T.C. thing.

    Btw his name was given by humans based on his musical theme, not just random name.
    That's what I suspected. Quite an interesting take on the Bard concept, and I think Blizzard would follow a model like that (or Grimstroke or Deckard) over a guy prancing around singing with a lute. I could totally see a LoE/Rafaam-based class collecting relics and using their power to blast targets with their magic utilizing similar mechanics to LoL's Bard hero.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The problem with your suggestions is that they're either already part of existing classes, or there's no hero character to justify their existence.
    After reading your posts for so many years, I have the distinct feeling that if you did not suggest it then it is either not possible or not good enough. Have a nice night. I will reserve my opinion for those who are open minded and trust that new Lore can be built around nearly anything as a playable class since they have invented enemies out of thin air for years.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

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