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  1. #321
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    She didn't "cast him aside" though. She didn't make any promises of everlasting love towards him. And even after she said she couldn't marry him... she was like "Hey, we can still bone down whenever...I just have to marry this other guy...but he's cool with that".

    I'm not saying it was cool for her to seduce him like that... it was, as I stated earlier, reckless and irresponsible. But only one of them is an oathbreaker.
    He if wanted and knew he was going to just a side piece, that's fine. Two consenting adults can do whatever they want. That's wasn't his impression going into it though. She selfishly exploited the power dynamic between them. Don't get me wrong, he isn't blameless. He had his vows, should have known better, he was still misled and exploited, and you can't just dismiss the feelings of the exploited as "haha, you got duped".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Where was the casting aside? She is the reason he has this prestigious position, as they wanted someone from a renown family with power to have the position. It's kind idiotic that he would assume that she'd throw away her crown and duty to the realm, to be the wife of a sell sword, just so he can replace his honor. He can do that himself without her.
    No there's nothing to worry about with fathering, I don't know if he learns what Allicent knows(the plan b tea) but those kids are too strong to be Cole's

    The irony is that he, a low-born who was bestowed a high position that would raise his house by said princess, is also wanting her to throw away so much more, so that he can feel like his honor isn't wasted for nothing. He went from being a cool, down to earth, relatable low-born, to suddenly "MUH HONOR" idiot real fast.
    Did she go public, or did she want him to remain her secret whore manservant? That's what I mean by cast aside. No different from some asshole banging his secretary and only being affectionate towards her when no one is watching. It's exploitative scummy behavior unless the other person is 100% fine with it. Just because they are fucking means they are 100% cool with it when the power dynamic is off. With both the secretary in real life and the case of buddy, for all they know if they stop accepting advances, they get thrown under the bus.

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  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    He if wanted and knew he was going to just a side piece, that's fine. Two consenting adults can do whatever they want. That's wasn't his impression going into it though. She selfishly exploited the power dynamic between them. Don't get me wrong, he isn't blameless. He had his vows, should have known better, he was still misled and exploited, and you can't just dismiss the feelings of the exploited as "haha, you got duped".
    Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.

    But misled? No... she never gave him any indication that there was anything more to what was happening than sex. She complained to him once that she wasn't allowed to marry for love... but she never said she loved him. She was horny, he was available.

    And his proposal wasn't about love anyway...it was about his shame. He thought that if they could run away together and be married that it would somehow lessen his shame.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2022-09-21 at 02:54 AM.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Did she go public, or did she want him to remain her secret whore manservant? That's what I mean by cast aside. No different from some asshole banging his secretary and only being affectionate towards her when no one is watching.
    I still wouldn't say that's casted aside. Casted aside would be like marrying for power and then i no longer need you, so i leave you. Or i had sex with you, but now i dont have sex with you... so i cast you aside. There's no casting aside here, she had sex with him in secret and wants to continue the sex with him. He's the one who's asking for a change.

    It's exploitative scummy behavior unless the other person is 100% fine with it. Just because they are fucking means they are 100% cool with it when the power dynamic is off. With both the secretary in real life and the case of buddy, for all they know if they stop accepting advances, they get thrown under the bus.
    There's a lot of ways to look at this. She's a teenage girl(or maybe 20, 21 now?) and she just have her virginity to him. They've known each other for years, he knows her really well, she's the reason he has this position that he himself thinks is amazing. This isn't just some boss fucking a secretary, this is is a friend and I hate to say this(cause I'm not a feminist) a girl giving her first time with someone to whom she trusts. Keep in mind that sex to her was a death sentence for her mother and is clearly being portrayed that way by the Showrunners. He's been there through a lot of this and knows her. This guy wasn't worried about her ruining his job, this is a guy who threw away his honor for the girl who probably already had feelings for and was hoping she'd throw away everything to be with him. I do believe that after his talk with Alicent, that he probably was worried about the consequences and maybe in a paranoid thought process, believed Rhaenyra spilled the beans as 2 people questioned him, one stupidly making it sound like a threat.

  4. #324
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    I still wouldn't say that's casted aside. Casted aside would be like marrying for power and then i no longer need you, so i leave you. Or i had sex with you, but now i dont have sex with you... so i cast you aside. There's no casting aside here, she had sex with him in secret and wants to continue the sex with him. He's the one who's asking for a change.

    Funny that you frame it this way because I believe the alliance between him and the queen it upon them both feeling like they were cast aside. I get what all of you are saying but we're talking about GoT characters, not well adjusted individuals who accept responsibility and consequences for their actions, or refuse to further escalate situations until a bunch of people end up dead.

    There's a lot of ways to look at this. She's a teenage girl(or maybe 20, 21 now?) and she just have her virginity to him. They've known each other for years, he knows her really well, she's the reason he has this position that he himself thinks is amazing. This isn't just some boss fucking a secretary, this is is a friend and I hate to say this(cause I'm not a feminist) a girl giving her first time with someone to whom she trusts. Keep in mind that sex to her was a death sentence for her mother and is clearly being portrayed that way by the Showrunners. He's been there through a lot of this and knows her. This guy wasn't worried about her ruining his job, this is a guy who threw away his honor for the girl who probably already had feelings for and was hoping she'd throw away everything to be with him. I do believe that after his talk with Alicent, that he probably was worried about the consequences and maybe in a paranoid thought process, believed Rhaenyra spilled the beans as 2 people questioned him, one stupidly making it sound like a threat.
    I think you're being charitable to Rhaenyra within the circumstances. He chose to break his vows with her because she is "his lady" he is sworn to protect and though his fetishization/admiration/crush/whatever he had towards her was being reciprocated - not saying it was right, but its how people end up falling for their teachers/bosses/supervisors/etc. She was looking for a rebound because she got rejected by her uncle. She had already made up her mind to break her vows and only chose him due to his proximity and the implied power dynamic between them. He wouldn't have broken his vows for anyone but her, she chose him because he was easy to exploit. He had feeling towards him and was horny. She was just horny and clearly seems him as her underling, even if they have a cordial relationship.

    She gets caught, she is forced to marry. He gets caught, he gets executed. The consequences are not the same which is why I see the person in the position of power being the worst of the two and why I can understand (but like I said not condone) his overall response.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-09-21 at 04:01 AM.

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  5. #325
    Gotta say, never thought I'd see (non-troll) people around here using, "But they were a horny teenager!" as an excuse for bad behavior.

    You learn a lot from role swap situations, though.

  6. #326
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.
    So he works for her. All you did was describe the hierarchy of power, he still works for her. He is sworn to do whatever she does, even die for her, short of what contradicting an order from the king.

    You think he would have still slept with her if he knew she off Daemon giving her blue balls? Anyone would have seen those red flags, even a guy infatuated with his superior.

    I mean its interesting to see genders reversed in a story, but it doesn't make it okay. Makes for a great story, but I'm not to sit here and try to morally justify it, especially in a show where almost nothing is morally justifiable. None of these people are good, honest people.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-09-21 at 04:06 AM.

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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.

    But misled? No... she never gave him any indication that there was anything more to what was happening than sex. She complained to him once that she wasn't allowed to marry for love... but she never said she loved him. She was horny, he was available.

    And his proposal wasn't about love anyway...it was about his shame. He thought that if they could run away together and be married that it would somehow lessen his shame.
    If the Secret Service agent tasked with protecting the President's daughter slept with her after she puts the move on him, would that be okay because she has "no power" over him because he technically reports to the President?

    I think it's pretty clear she's in a position of power over him which she abused. She also abused their friendship and possibly his latent feelings for her, and he caught feelings very quick, so there's "mitigating factors" and "other perspectives." None of which negates that she was abusive towards him.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    If the Secret Service agent tasked with protecting the President's daughter slept with her after she puts the move on him, would that be okay because she has "no power" over him because he technically reports to the President?

    I think it's pretty clear she's in a position of power over him which she abused. She also abused their friendship and possibly his latent feelings for her, and he caught feelings very quick, so there's "mitigating factors" and "other perspectives." None of which negates that she was abusive towards him.
    I didn't say it was "ok". I have said several times that what she did was reckless and irresponsible.

    Also, a SS agent doesn't swear to God that he will remain celibate.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I didn't say it was "ok". I have said several times that what she did was reckless and irresponsible.

    Also, a SS agent doesn't swear to God that he will remain celibate.
    They do have ethical and legal obligations to not become involved with their Protectees though. It can compromise their security.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So he works for her. All you did was describe the hierarchy of power, he still works for her. He is sworn to do whatever she does, even die for her, short of what contradicting an order from the king.
    Do you think maybe protecting her chastity might be something the King would expect from his Kingsguard?

    You think he would have still slept with her if he knew she off Daemon giving her blue balls? Anyone would have seen those red flags, even a guy infatuated with his superior.
    I absolutely do. He didn't take much convincing. Dude was down to fuck. I think the only difference is he would have gone to kill Daemon too.

    I mean its interesting to see genders reversed in a story, but it doesn't make it okay. Makes for a great story, but I'm not to sit here and try to morally justify it, especially in a show where almost nothing is morally justifiable. None of these people are good, honest people.
    Again, never said it was "ok". I said she didn't mislead him in anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They do have ethical and legal obligations to not become involved with their Protectees though. It can compromise their security.
    Which adds to my point of "what he did is worse than what she did."
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  11. #331
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Do you think maybe protecting her chastity might be something the King would expect from his Kingsguard?



    I absolutely do. He didn't take much convincing. Dude was down to fuck. I think the only difference is he would have gone to kill Daemon too.



    Again, never said it was "ok". I said she didn't mislead him in anyway.

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    Which adds to my point of "what he did is worse than what she did."
    So what she did wasn't okay but she didn't mislead him? So what did she do wrong?

    How is his role worse when she held all the power and initiated the act knowing it would "cost" him much more should they get caught?


    Saying "no" to a noble is not viewed as an option by many in their service because of the power they hold. The affair literally happened in the same episode where Alicent reluctantly slept with the king. They parallel wasn't coincidental. The whole point is to show how the Targaryens use and manipulate those around them.


    Also there's no way he would have slept with her if he knew about Daemon. That would have been completely out of character because he would have realized she was just using him.

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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So what she did wasn't okay but she didn't mislead him? So what did she do wrong?
    She slept with a man that was supposed to protect her and is sworn to celibacy.

    How is his role worse when she held all the power and initiated the act knowing it would "cost" him much more should they get caught?
    He's the one responsible for her safety.

    Saying "no" to a noble is not viewed as an option by many in their service because of the power they hold. The affair literally happened in the same episode where Alicent reluctantly slept with the king. They parallel wasn't coincidental. The whole point is to show how the Targaryens use and manipulate those around them.
    Saying no to Royalty is what you have to do sometimes when you are a member of the Kingsguard.

    Also there's no way he would have slept with her if he knew about Daemon. That would have been completely out of character because he would have realized she was just using him.
    It was also completely out of character for him to sleep with her in the first place. Not to mention beat a man to death. "Love" makes people do crazy things
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2022-09-21 at 06:37 AM.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  13. #333
    Well, that ending seemed a little forced. Guess they had to do some murder, because it was a wedding and fans expect something bad to happen.

    But why on earth was Cole allowed to leave, after ruining the future Queens wedding/killing the future King Consorts "best friend" and failing to protect Rhaenyra in the confusion? Why did noone arrest him afterwards? Why did the kingsguard not stop the queen from visiting a murderer alone in the woods afterwards?
    (also minor point: whats up with all those southern Lords and Ladies standing in front of that old god tree in kings landing? I guess you don't kill yourself in a Sept, but still, killing yourself in front of a heart tree because you broke your oath to the seven, seems a bit like apologizing to Odin that you slept with a nun :>)

    And with the time skip coming, I don't think they are planing to explain any of that. He is just going to still be around with his balls and head attached. That all just seemed like late GoT storytelling that is just supposed to shock us without wanting to deal with any of the implications. I hope they don't do that again.

    ...

    Up until that point (him just leaving after the murder), I thought the episode was great. They seem to finnaly be done with setup and we are starting to have some mystery, schemes and escalation. Everyone but Viserys seems to be up to something. I like that.

    Also, I never thought I would like a scene because of an awesome dress, but that was a great scene!
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  14. #334
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Sir Criston Cole is a bloody moron, how can anybody defend him really? He went from bad to worse because of his own stupidity and ego.

    The worst that could happen to him was getting fired for some petty reason the rejected princess could come up with because she certainly wouldn't confess to wanting to have a sex with him. Instead of honoring his oath he decided to bang a goddamn princess as he most likely feared he would lose his status.

    Then he can't live with the fate he brought on himself and decides to ruin her life? Rhaenyra has been groomed to become a queen for several years at that point, sure she is a powerhungry bitch but has anybody ever thought she might not want to dissappoint her father after all the years she tried to be seen by him? And when he get's rejected he can't stand being a manwhore? Something nobody would even bat an eye on if the roles were reversed.

    After of all of this, being full of spite, he potentially commits a suicide but get's lucky. However he is such a moron that he doesn't realise he will get played like a fiddle by another woman. He won't have a choice but to obey his queen.

    Lastly he ruins the party because he is so cunt-struck that everybody can see it. With that being said, murdering that guy was probably the most understandable thing he did. Again though, he knows he screwed up and yet he can't even kill himself in time. He will be Alicent's bitch for rest of his life now.

    He knew the risk and yet he couldn't help himself. Now he is surprised it came back to bite his ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    *snip*
    He will be saved by the queen, she knows the secret and she will make him her personal guard.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Sir Criston Cole is a bloody moron, how can anybody defend him really? He went from bad to worse because of his own stupidity and ego.

    The worst that could happen to him was getting fired for some petty reason the rejected princess could come up with because she certainly wouldn't confess to wanting to have a sex with him. Instead of honoring his oath he decided to bang a goddamn princess because he most likely feared he would lose his status.
    .
    Actually, the worst that could have happened is execution because of the reason you give.

  16. #336
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Actually, the worst that could have happened is execution because of the reason you give.
    Rhaenyra can't say she banged him, it would ruin her life.

    I don't see for whatever reason he could be executed, up until that point he did everything textbook.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Rhaenyra can't say she banged him, it would ruin her life.

    I don't see for whatever reason he could be executed, up until that point he did everything textbook.
    Why would she say she banged him? She could say he raped her... Boom, done and dusted.

    And no one was there watching them? So how can "him doing everything by textbook" have any weight? It's not like they have forensics and a investigation with ruthless interviews trying to figure out the truth in court. A princess says a her guard did X the guard did X in this world. Unless there is a witness, which there was none.

    Saying he was in no danger except being "fired" is very naïve in this fantasy world as it has been portrayed.

  18. #338
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.

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  19. #339
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Why would she say she banged him? She could say he raped her... Boom, done and dusted.

    And no one was there watching them? So how can "him doing everything by textbook" have any weight? It's not like they have forensics and a investigation with ruthless interviews trying to figure out the truth in court. A princess says a her guard did X the guard did X in this world. Unless there is a witness, which there was none.

    Saying he was in no danger except being "fired" is very naïve in this fantasy world as it has been portrayed.
    Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

    Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

    Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

    Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

    Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.
    I think the Valeryan marriage would still happen, since it's clearly already political and even Rhaenerys herself tells Laenor "We marry for political and then we fuck whomever we want, capiché?" And he agrees to it.
    Corlys wouldn't turn down the offer, since he wants that power + he knows his son is gay, he hopes he grows out of it sure, but he's smart enough to understand they are only married because of politics. Hell, it's his only focus tbh.

    Valerys already made it clear that she would have the throne regardless. He has gotten a male heir, but he STILL says the throne should go to her. Valerys love for Rhaenerys has been displayed a lot, even firing his hand because of allegations of her. In fact the child of Alicent and Rhaenerys fighting for the throne will be a future contention between the two. He will certainly defend her honor and tell others to deal with it because it wasn't her fault. It's a tragedy it happened and thus Criston will be swiftly executed, hell maybe even tortured first to display the severity of taking her maidenhood.

    I don't deny that other houses or the kingdom will be upset about it, but they are already upset she is an heir. As they've made clear that it will be an uproar when she's crowned for real.

    And in the end, it doesn't matter if it would destroy her.
    Criston is still in a position that's very dangerous for him regardless of what decision he makes.
    Would you make the same argument if the roles were reversed? I can't say I have seen any of it flies like "this guy have no power play over this girl because he would lose his reputation if it came out". And you think someone in that position will go "nah, they won't lie about this because it might ruin it for them, so I certainly won't be executed!". People in that position think of the here and now and what can happen to them if they refuse. Not several steps ahead if it's likely that they will or not. In the end, the threat is a possibility. So it's a threat. Especially in GoT times.


    But I think we will just continue to disagree. So I'll probably leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.
    It's GOT. The default stance should be "this character is a villain" tbh
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-21 at 09:07 AM.

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