[TV] House of the Dragon

[PACOX]

Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.

[RH92]

Why would she say she banged him? She could say he raped her... Boom, done and dusted.

And no one was there watching them? So how can "him doing everything by textbook" have any weight? It's not like they have forensics and a investigation with ruthless interviews trying to figure out the truth in court. A princess says a her guard did X the guard did X in this world. Unless there is a witness, which there was none.

Saying he was in no danger except being "fired" is very naïve in this fantasy world as it has been portrayed.

Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.

[Kumorii]

Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.

I think the Valeryan marriage would still happen, since it's clearly already political and even Rhaenerys herself tells Laenor "We marry for political and then we fuck whomever we want, capiché?" And he agrees to it.
Corlys wouldn't turn down the offer, since he wants that power + he knows his son is gay, he hopes he grows out of it sure, but he's smart enough to understand they are only married because of politics. Hell, it's his only focus tbh.

Valerys already made it clear that she would have the throne regardless. He has gotten a male heir, but he STILL says the throne should go to her. Valerys love for Rhaenerys has been displayed a lot, even firing his hand because of allegations of her. In fact the child of Alicent and Rhaenerys fighting for the throne will be a future contention between the two. He will certainly defend her honor and tell others to deal with it because it wasn't her fault. It's a tragedy it happened and thus Criston will be swiftly executed, hell maybe even tortured first to display the severity of taking her maidenhood.

I don't deny that other houses or the kingdom will be upset about it, but they are already upset she is an heir. As they've made clear that it will be an uproar when she's crowned for real.

And in the end, it doesn't matter if it would destroy her.
Criston is still in a position that's very dangerous for him regardless of what decision he makes.
Would you make the same argument if the roles were reversed? I can't say I have seen any of it flies like "this guy have no power play over this girl because he would lose his reputation if it came out". And you think someone in that position will go "nah, they won't lie about this because it might ruin it for them, so I certainly won't be executed!". People in that position think of the here and now and what can happen to them if they refuse. Not several steps ahead if it's likely that they will or not. In the end, the threat is a possibility. So it's a threat. Especially in GoT times.


But I think we will just continue to disagree. So I'll probably leave it at that.

- - - Updated - - -

Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.

It's GOT. The default stance should be "this character is a villain" tbh

[Fortress of Arrogance]

So, the last episode.
Sir Criston is a fool, for sure. There is a certain disbalance of positions between him and Slutnyra, but that's water under the bridge, as it was clear she was only using him due to:
1. him being available
2. having a crush on her
3. being in a servant position to begin with

Having said that, seeing Criston pummel that... redheaded backside mainstream headliner to death was a pleasant sight, if only so a fleeting one, but there are a few questions to ask:
1. Why did he do that(especially that the books described this act in A LOT MORE sensible manner)
2. why in Seven Hells did all the Kingsguard attending the feast do square root of nothing about him murdering a guy and walking away all the way to the Tree?
3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?


Also, the opening scene of the 11th killing his wife in a complete silence was so off
Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?

[RH92]

*snip*

Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.

[Hansworst]

Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.

IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon

[RH92]

IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon

I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.

[Hansworst]

I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.

Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out

[RH92]

Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out

Nah, it's okay. Don't go anywhere...

[Koriani]

Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.

And that ticked me off more than any of the actual 'real plot' happenings after the fact. It ticked me off because it makes no sense, to me, for either of these characters to be anywhere close to engaging in that sort of behavior 'blindly like horny teenagers' when that isn't what they are, or how they are portrayed in the rest of the episodes (so far).

Because yea - this isn't just some two 18 year old peasants with no awareness of how the real world, or royalty, works, just off getting their jollies "without thinking about it." Bullshit - makes zippo sense - at all.

The 20something year old (not a teenager) did actually pledge his life to this service and this position. Knows full well (as he states in ep: 5) what happens to him if he's caught having sex at all (much less boinking the princess), and without five minutes of deliberation or discussion with the female he's about to give it all up for - decides "yeah sure let's do this."

The 18 year old who has been raised IN court intrigue, as a royal, and as the next leader of Westeros. Also knows full well what happens to her, AND to Him, if they get caught having sex. Is a girl who has, in every episode up until now, been abhorrently against being forced to have a child for any reason due to her fear and BELIEF that she'll be killed by childbirth. Also decides, because she got horny (? I guess), to ignore all of that and boink her guard - also without five minutes of discussion about all of the reality they are dealing with in this act, with the guy.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not for one minute. None of that makes any sense, at all, AS presented. No idea if the book presented it better, I never read this book - though I have read all the other GOT books and not once in those have I ever been brought out of my immersion so immediately by any characters' decisions or behavior as I was with these scenes. (I was with the season 7/8 of the last series but never with the books like this.)

If there had been a few minutes of scenes in other episodes setting this up - I could have bought it I think. If Cole had been given a few minutes of dialogue with another Guard, or his Priest, or ANYONE about being overly fond of his ward or developing feels or the dangers of messing with royal women. Or A scene with the Princess where he asks her about how 'serious' she is about wanting to be free/leave it all behind, etc. Hell, even a scene where he's shyly flirting with her to see how she responds - or a lingering touch here and there and they exchange glances. I don't know - ANYTHING - to indicate his mindset before this night about Her and his Vows - it would have made this 'work' more believably.

A few scenes lasting a few minutes with the Princess offering the same build up - of her trying to flirt with ANYONE, of her expressing any interest in any sort of sexuality (outside of wanting to choose for herself/freedom or dying in childbirth), of her having 'taboo discussions' with other ladies in waiting and/or even her Guard himself. Even her wistfully staring out the window at some cute guy (you know, actual 18 year old/teenager behavior) to let you know that she's exploring/curious. In a single five second scene at the wedding you know the young Valerian teenage princess is INTERESTED in Daemon across a table. But she gets none of that, either.

There's no build up here that either of these individuals are, at all, in this sort of headspace or could make such a stupid, possibly fatal, decision. So to have no buildup to this "plot twist" and we're just suppose to buy into, without any real consideration for his own life or her own consideration for HER own life and pregnancy, they just "got horny and decided to screw it all - and screw each other!" Yeah..no... I call bad writing. At least in THIS particular situation in the plot - to me - they failed here. Wouldn't have been hard to set this up a bit better - but that's not what they chose to do.

Hubby and I enjoying the rest of the show. Its not as strong as the original out of the gate, but we're still entertained enough to keep watching to see if it gets stronger. But if this is how they end up moving forward with other "setups" and plot twists, eh, we will see. I just wasn't impressed with THIS particular scene play out.

Because I'm sorry but no, not everyone just forgets everything they know to have sex because they are horny and damn all the consequences. Not even 18-25 year olds. I can get that neither of these people are 'good characters', that part doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is throwing out all logic and other-character-development (they've had so far) for the sake of "stupid decision just because drama-twist is good for the plot." I hope that isn't what they continue to do with the writing, anyway.

[Khaza-R]

Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.

I don't think there's any logic intended to it. She's a teenager who was heavily intoxicated, very likely had just been sexually touched for the first time and exposed to extreme live sexual acts also likely for the first time. Then on top of it you have her uncle basically flaunting he as a man can do this whenever he pleases. When she knows her future is basically to be like Alicent and to have sex out of duty and not out of desire.

I think that entire scene is to show you that even the most reasonable people can succumb to temptation in the right circumstances. Doing so is simply human.

[Myradin]

3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?

I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.

Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?

They did note it was odd she was absent, but the wedding isn't about her. She's not even the princess' mother.

The king isn't one to have a firm hand, he's slow and eager to appease people. Reprimanding her would have just make a bigger scene out of it than it already was.

[Twdft]

I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.

"Hey buddy, you don't know me but we'll be pals from now on. Just fyi I know your little secret that will have you gelded, tortured and killed if it ever comes out. Cya tomorrow?"

What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

[Fencers]

Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.

He did that to let Cole know he had leverage over him. Not to be friendly.

[AcidicSyn]

He did that to let Cole know he had leverage over him. Not to be friendly.

Opening with his own secret was probably not the best way to go about that.

[Fencers]

Opening with his own secret was probably not the best way to go about that.

It wasn't a "secret".

[Fortress of Arrogance]

It wasn't a "secret".

publicly known secret is still a secret, though

[Koriani]

I don't think there's any logic intended to it. She's a teenager who was heavily intoxicated, very likely had just been sexually touched for the first time and exposed to extreme live sexual acts also likely for the first time. Then on top of it you have her uncle basically flaunting he as a man can do this whenever he pleases. When she knows her future is basically to be like Alicent and to have sex out of duty and not out of desire.

I think that entire scene is to show you that even the most reasonable people can succumb to temptation in the right circumstances. Doing so is simply human.

And I can get that might have been their (the writers') purpose - I just disagree they pulled it off 'successfully' in the way (or setup) they chose. (For me)

Maybe it works better in the book, as I understand (Possibly wrongly!) the Princess in the book is closer to 12/13 and not 18? (if that's all that was setup/provided in the book, I don't know how much detail was spent on it or not, or even if that's how it played out in the book). The level of "succumbing to temptation despite all consequences" stupidity works better, or is less jarring, as something a 12/13 year old might do vs. an 18 year old in this sort of powerful position. There is a lot of brain maturation in those 5 years (and even more so for the guard who's at least 21).

And I DO get it IS "simply human" and that, historically, yes, Royal affairs leading to death and war and imprisonment are all over the real world timeline =D. We don't need to get into which ones struggled with their decisions or how much thinking went into it or how old etc, that gets into real world history and as much as I'm a student of the historical biography/medieval royal genre, too much sidetracking and pointless .

Its just THIS writing-setup (or lack thereof), in THIS reality of Westeros, with THIS character (Princess more so than the Guard, who we are given much less about overall) and how they had portrayed her up until that point - the impulsive 'break' in character just didn't work for me. At all.

As I said before I think that's my bigger issue - the writing not presenting, until that MOMENT, a woman who was impulsive or rash in her thinking or decision-making. (Quite the opposite, IMO.) As I said in my prior post, a few scenes of a few minutes here or there, indicating this impulsivity was also part of her personality or thought process somewhere. They DID take the time, at least for one brief scene, to show how coldly uncaring she COULD be, selfish and inconsiderate of even men killing themselves in front of her for no reason (the scene of Suitors where she walks out in the middle of the duel where the boy kills the man without even a word to say - save a life and tell them if they fought like children she would pick none of them or something.). But that wasn't her being impulsive with her own life and safety and freedoms. Just uncaring what happened to anyone she saw as 'less than' or 'irrelevant' to her. Starting to show that "none of these characters are 'great people'."

Hell, by the time she's on the dance floor before her wedding - she's verbally-sparing with Daemon about that night as if she's a practiced consort. As if no, that night wasn't her first time ever being touched by a man or seeing people having sex. That after that 'tease and leave' this supposedly "so inexperienced she succumbs to the first horny feeling she has and risks the lives of two people to have sex RIGHT NAO" she's suddenly strong and sure enough to stand toe to toe with her Uncle, in public, on a dance floor, and taunt him for what happened? Eh - the person she is before, and after, the one night of passion just makes the one night of passion fit less and less. (to me) Alcohol doesn't cover (or excuse) all that.

Now, the decision making AFTER that event, was as expected and fit with the Princess's character as previously presented. All of that worked just fine. Her arrogance in believing she can pull off "I can marry this guy and we can both have affairs and it will all be fine" is pretty typical and standard and something we've seen x100 times before both in IRL AND in this series already with the original GoT (book series) time period. Her rejection of the Guard's offer - dead on expected, made sense, fit. I thought it naïve and ignorant of the Guard to confess to the Queen, but as presented it also made sense as an act of desperation and, given what we NOW know of the Guard, isn't surprising he's /still/ naïve and ignorant. But, at the same time, with how impactful and heavy he found his guilt to be, after the fact, for his Honor - just makes me less able to believe he would have made the original decision and 'succumbed' in the first place, without a moments hesitation - but, I digress. The writing and character logic /after/ the night of passion all works fine to me. Its just the "one stupid night" that, to me, left a bad taste in my mouth for the way they chose to portray it. (The taste of GoT Season 8)

But again - one scene. I'm still happy with the show and know that until we see two or three more "major character/plot decisions" like this play out in the show, I certainly can't claim there's a 'Pattern' here of writers jumping the shark for these moments in plot movement or character decision making. I'm not saying its all GoT Season 8! =D Just hoping it was a fluke in this setup for this particular plot point and NOT something we start seeing more often. I'd rather have a new show I enjoy!

[Myradin]

It wasn't a "secret".

It was likely a secret to some extent.

Yes his parents know, and Rhaenyra knows because as they said, she grew up around him. But i'm pretty sure it'd be something their house would like to keep a hush on what with wanting to continue their house and all.

[Ihavewaffles]