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  1. #341
    So, the last episode.
    Sir Criston is a fool, for sure. There is a certain disbalance of positions between him and Slutnyra, but that's water under the bridge, as it was clear she was only using him due to:
    1. him being available
    2. having a crush on her
    3. being in a servant position to begin with

    Having said that, seeing Criston pummel that... redheaded backside mainstream headliner to death was a pleasant sight, if only so a fleeting one, but there are a few questions to ask:
    1. Why did he do that(especially that the books described this act in A LOT MORE sensible manner)
    2. why in Seven Hells did all the Kingsguard attending the feast do square root of nothing about him murdering a guy and walking away all the way to the Tree?
    3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?


    Also, the opening scene of the 11th killing his wife in a complete silence was so off
    Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?
    Last edited by Fortress of Arrogance; 2022-09-21 at 11:26 AM.

  2. #342
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    *snip*
    Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

    We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

    In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.

  3. #343
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

    We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

    In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.
    IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
    She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon
    Last edited by Hansworst; 2022-09-21 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #344
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
    She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon
    I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.

  5. #345
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.
    Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out

  6. #346
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out
    Nah, it's okay. Don't go anywhere...

  7. #347
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    Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

    Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

    Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.

    And that ticked me off more than any of the actual 'real plot' happenings after the fact. It ticked me off because it makes no sense, to me, for either of these characters to be anywhere close to engaging in that sort of behavior 'blindly like horny teenagers' when that isn't what they are, or how they are portrayed in the rest of the episodes (so far).

    Because yea - this isn't just some two 18 year old peasants with no awareness of how the real world, or royalty, works, just off getting their jollies "without thinking about it." Bullshit - makes zippo sense - at all.

    The 20something year old (not a teenager) did actually pledge his life to this service and this position. Knows full well (as he states in ep: 5) what happens to him if he's caught having sex at all (much less boinking the princess), and without five minutes of deliberation or discussion with the female he's about to give it all up for - decides "yeah sure let's do this."

    The 18 year old who has been raised IN court intrigue, as a royal, and as the next leader of Westeros. Also knows full well what happens to her, AND to Him, if they get caught having sex. Is a girl who has, in every episode up until now, been abhorrently against being forced to have a child for any reason due to her fear and BELIEF that she'll be killed by childbirth. Also decides, because she got horny (? I guess), to ignore all of that and boink her guard - also without five minutes of discussion about all of the reality they are dealing with in this act, with the guy.

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Not for one minute. None of that makes any sense, at all, AS presented. No idea if the book presented it better, I never read this book - though I have read all the other GOT books and not once in those have I ever been brought out of my immersion so immediately by any characters' decisions or behavior as I was with these scenes. (I was with the season 7/8 of the last series but never with the books like this.)

    If there had been a few minutes of scenes in other episodes setting this up - I could have bought it I think. If Cole had been given a few minutes of dialogue with another Guard, or his Priest, or ANYONE about being overly fond of his ward or developing feels or the dangers of messing with royal women. Or A scene with the Princess where he asks her about how 'serious' she is about wanting to be free/leave it all behind, etc. Hell, even a scene where he's shyly flirting with her to see how she responds - or a lingering touch here and there and they exchange glances. I don't know - ANYTHING - to indicate his mindset before this night about Her and his Vows - it would have made this 'work' more believably.

    A few scenes lasting a few minutes with the Princess offering the same build up - of her trying to flirt with ANYONE, of her expressing any interest in any sort of sexuality (outside of wanting to choose for herself/freedom or dying in childbirth), of her having 'taboo discussions' with other ladies in waiting and/or even her Guard himself. Even her wistfully staring out the window at some cute guy (you know, actual 18 year old/teenager behavior) to let you know that she's exploring/curious. In a single five second scene at the wedding you know the young Valerian teenage princess is INTERESTED in Daemon across a table. But she gets none of that, either.

    There's no build up here that either of these individuals are, at all, in this sort of headspace or could make such a stupid, possibly fatal, decision. So to have no buildup to this "plot twist" and we're just suppose to buy into, without any real consideration for his own life or her own consideration for HER own life and pregnancy, they just "got horny and decided to screw it all - and screw each other!" Yeah..no... I call bad writing. At least in THIS particular situation in the plot - to me - they failed here. Wouldn't have been hard to set this up a bit better - but that's not what they chose to do.

    Hubby and I enjoying the rest of the show. Its not as strong as the original out of the gate, but we're still entertained enough to keep watching to see if it gets stronger. But if this is how they end up moving forward with other "setups" and plot twists, eh, we will see. I just wasn't impressed with THIS particular scene play out.

    Because I'm sorry but no, not everyone just forgets everything they know to have sex because they are horny and damn all the consequences. Not even 18-25 year olds. I can get that neither of these people are 'good characters', that part doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is throwing out all logic and other-character-development (they've had so far) for the sake of "stupid decision just because drama-twist is good for the plot." I hope that isn't what they continue to do with the writing, anyway.
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  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

    Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

    Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.
    I don't think there's any logic intended to it. She's a teenager who was heavily intoxicated, very likely had just been sexually touched for the first time and exposed to extreme live sexual acts also likely for the first time. Then on top of it you have her uncle basically flaunting he as a man can do this whenever he pleases. When she knows her future is basically to be like Alicent and to have sex out of duty and not out of desire.

    I think that entire scene is to show you that even the most reasonable people can succumb to temptation in the right circumstances. Doing so is simply human.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?
    I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

    Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?
    They did note it was odd she was absent, but the wedding isn't about her. She's not even the princess' mother.

    The king isn't one to have a firm hand, he's slow and eager to appease people. Reprimanding her would have just make a bigger scene out of it than it already was.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

    Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.
    "Hey buddy, you don't know me but we'll be pals from now on. Just fyi I know your little secret that will have you gelded, tortured and killed if it ever comes out. Cya tomorrow?"

    What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

  11. #351
    Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.
    He did that to let Cole know he had leverage over him. Not to be friendly.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    He did that to let Cole know he had leverage over him. Not to be friendly.
    Opening with his own secret was probably not the best way to go about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Opening with his own secret was probably not the best way to go about that.
    It wasn't a "secret".

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It wasn't a "secret".
    publicly known secret is still a secret, though

  15. #355
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't think there's any logic intended to it. She's a teenager who was heavily intoxicated, very likely had just been sexually touched for the first time and exposed to extreme live sexual acts also likely for the first time. Then on top of it you have her uncle basically flaunting he as a man can do this whenever he pleases. When she knows her future is basically to be like Alicent and to have sex out of duty and not out of desire.

    I think that entire scene is to show you that even the most reasonable people can succumb to temptation in the right circumstances. Doing so is simply human.
    And I can get that might have been their (the writers') purpose - I just disagree they pulled it off 'successfully' in the way (or setup) they chose. (For me)

    Maybe it works better in the book, as I understand (Possibly wrongly!) the Princess in the book is closer to 12/13 and not 18? (if that's all that was setup/provided in the book, I don't know how much detail was spent on it or not, or even if that's how it played out in the book). The level of "succumbing to temptation despite all consequences" stupidity works better, or is less jarring, as something a 12/13 year old might do vs. an 18 year old in this sort of powerful position. There is a lot of brain maturation in those 5 years (and even more so for the guard who's at least 21).

    And I DO get it IS "simply human" and that, historically, yes, Royal affairs leading to death and war and imprisonment are all over the real world timeline =D. We don't need to get into which ones struggled with their decisions or how much thinking went into it or how old etc, that gets into real world history and as much as I'm a student of the historical biography/medieval royal genre, too much sidetracking and pointless .

    Its just THIS writing-setup (or lack thereof), in THIS reality of Westeros, with THIS character (Princess more so than the Guard, who we are given much less about overall) and how they had portrayed her up until that point - the impulsive 'break' in character just didn't work for me. At all.

    As I said before I think that's my bigger issue - the writing not presenting, until that MOMENT, a woman who was impulsive or rash in her thinking or decision-making. (Quite the opposite, IMO.) As I said in my prior post, a few scenes of a few minutes here or there, indicating this impulsivity was also part of her personality or thought process somewhere. They DID take the time, at least for one brief scene, to show how coldly uncaring she COULD be, selfish and inconsiderate of even men killing themselves in front of her for no reason (the scene of Suitors where she walks out in the middle of the duel where the boy kills the man without even a word to say - save a life and tell them if they fought like children she would pick none of them or something.). But that wasn't her being impulsive with her own life and safety and freedoms. Just uncaring what happened to anyone she saw as 'less than' or 'irrelevant' to her. Starting to show that "none of these characters are 'great people'."

    Hell, by the time she's on the dance floor before her wedding - she's verbally-sparing with Daemon about that night as if she's a practiced consort. As if no, that night wasn't her first time ever being touched by a man or seeing people having sex. That after that 'tease and leave' this supposedly "so inexperienced she succumbs to the first horny feeling she has and risks the lives of two people to have sex RIGHT NAO" she's suddenly strong and sure enough to stand toe to toe with her Uncle, in public, on a dance floor, and taunt him for what happened? Eh - the person she is before, and after, the one night of passion just makes the one night of passion fit less and less. (to me) Alcohol doesn't cover (or excuse) all that.

    Now, the decision making AFTER that event, was as expected and fit with the Princess's character as previously presented. All of that worked just fine. Her arrogance in believing she can pull off "I can marry this guy and we can both have affairs and it will all be fine" is pretty typical and standard and something we've seen x100 times before both in IRL AND in this series already with the original GoT (book series) time period. Her rejection of the Guard's offer - dead on expected, made sense, fit. I thought it naïve and ignorant of the Guard to confess to the Queen, but as presented it also made sense as an act of desperation and, given what we NOW know of the Guard, isn't surprising he's /still/ naïve and ignorant. But, at the same time, with how impactful and heavy he found his guilt to be, after the fact, for his Honor - just makes me less able to believe he would have made the original decision and 'succumbed' in the first place, without a moments hesitation - but, I digress. The writing and character logic /after/ the night of passion all works fine to me. Its just the "one stupid night" that, to me, left a bad taste in my mouth for the way they chose to portray it. (The taste of GoT Season 8)

    But again - one scene. I'm still happy with the show and know that until we see two or three more "major character/plot decisions" like this play out in the show, I certainly can't claim there's a 'Pattern' here of writers jumping the shark for these moments in plot movement or character decision making. I'm not saying its all GoT Season 8! =D Just hoping it was a fluke in this setup for this particular plot point and NOT something we start seeing more often. I'd rather have a new show I enjoy!
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  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It wasn't a "secret".
    It was likely a secret to some extent.

    Yes his parents know, and Rhaenyra knows because as they said, she grew up around him. But i'm pretty sure it'd be something their house would like to keep a hush on what with wanting to continue their house and all.

  17. #357
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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  18. #358
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Im gonna start saying that i dislike Game of thrones and the universe of the song of ice chronicles, not because is bad(while i do think is overrated), but because its a narrative that is build in a way that does not please me, as i rather read/watch stories that follow one person or a group instead..

    But House of the dragon is actually enjoyable to me, maybe because it focus a smaller cast, but i did like more than GoT and it definitely miles better than Rings of Onion shit series over there, the difference in dialogue and narrative is absurd, in the very first episode it was more of a ride than 4 episodes of that crap.

    The only bs moment that i can think of right now is Daemon and the arrows, but he does get shot later at least, while in another show they would prob stop the arrows with their teeth.

  19. #359
    He did it as a final favor to Rhaenyra.

    He was basically tying off 3 loose ends by removing Laenor's temptation as well as a liability, removing Rhaenyra's potential witness to losing her virginity to a commoner from the King's Guard, as well as preserving his own honor if no one knows he broke his chastity oath.

    This way both Rhaenyra's rule as well as his own honor could be saved if no one had any witnesses or evidence of any shameful stuff. Anything remaining would be just pure rumors and speculation, nothing solid.

    Having said that, seeing Criston pummel that... redheaded backside mainstream headliner to death was a pleasant sight, if only so a fleeting one, but there are a few questions to ask:
    1. Why did he do that(especially that the books described this act in A LOT MORE sensible manner)
    2. why in Seven Hells did all the Kingsguard attending the feast do square root of nothing about him murdering a guy and walking away all the way to the Tree?
    3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?


    Also, the opening scene of the 11th killing his wife in a complete silence was so off
    Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?
    1. Answered above.
    2. They were busing controlling the crowd. These are nobles, they can't just rush them like they are peasants. Also Joffrey was no lord, so there was no priority to stop Cole from pummeling some random. And on top of it, it is assumed that if a member of the King's Guard attacks somebody, that somebody is a threat to the king or is talking shit about the king.
    3. Joffrey thought he could start a little clique of secret flings, maybe even have some leverage on Rhaenyra for the future. He obviously didn't know Cole at all, and it was very stupid to just come up to him with that bomb.
    Last edited by Cynical Asshole; 2022-09-25 at 11:07 AM.

  20. #360
    I am assuming this episode is going to be when the time skip and changing of actors occurs. So far its only Rhaeneryna and Alicent getting replaced but its going to be weird if they use the same actor for Ser Criston since he's barely older than the two of them.

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