[TV] House of the Dragon

[hulkgor]

Some weird attitudes in this thread about women's roles. No woman is entitled to die for her child. She is not a bad mother for choosing her own life over the life of an infant. Women should not be expected or forced to to be baby makers, whether in real life, historical contexts or make-believe universes. In all contexts mentioned, there are women that have chosen not to have children, or have chosen their own lives over an infant.

If you think otherwise then you should seriously question your personal belief systems.

This is such a weird take that it just seems dumb, apologies in advance. "Chose their life over an infant", "forced to be a baby maker", "bad mother for choosing her own life over the infant"... yet proceeds to want to impregnate, and then decides to murder her infant (which had a chance to survive) out of spite for not being able to survive the delivery? If she can't survive it, screw the child?

You're making absolute sense. /s

(You would have made sense if it was a choice between her OR the child, yet it never was. At that point it was just trying to save the child, which she decided not to do, kinda the least motherly thing a mother delivering could do.

[Kumorii]

This is such a weird take that it just seems dumb, apologies in advance. "Chose their life over an infant", "forced to be a baby maker", "bad mother for choosing her own life over the infant"... yet proceeds to want to impregnate, and then decides to murder her infant (which had a chance to survive) out of spite for not being able to survive the delivery? If she can't survive it, screw the child?

You're making absolute sense. /s

She didn't want to go through the pain of incision.
Being burned by dragons fire, the biggest dragon of them all no less, would be quick I imagine.
So she chose her end rather than have Daemon and the maesters decide it for her.

Sure you can say that mothers should always put their infant first before their misery or pain, but not everyone agrees with that. It's also very much easier said than done.
Her decision is logical to me. I wouldn't say it's the most noble or heroic choice or whatever, but not every choice will or has to be such.
She knew she was gonna die and decided to end it her way with less suffering for her.

[hulkgor]

A woman making a choice over her own body instead of her husband making it for her. Yes, how weird

The choice wasn't about her body, but the life of the unborn child. Hello?

[Myradin]

The doctor also made it clear he didn't know if the baby was even alive.

[hulkgor]

The choice was about dying how she wanted, not decided and forced upon her by her husband. I respect that.

That's such an incredibly weird opinion considering it wasn't just her life it was about.

If people want to take their life, regardless of how they do it (whether Westeros or the real world, man or woman), it's their choice, but -never- at the expense of someone else. Or do you not consider the child at this point?

Like, if a dying woman drives her car over a cliff, to end her life on 'her terms', that's ok, right? But what if she had a baby on the back seat? Still ok? Not really, more like murder.

Anyway, why do i bother.

[Sanguinerd]

I might've missed it but does anyone know why there wern't any consequences for Ser Criston Cole beating a man to death at the wedding party? I mean.. even if he was a nobody he was still a guest that came with house Velaryon. Did Alicent keep him safe or something? Also speaking of Alicent why is she present for the council meetings? I know she was there before as a cup filler and things but usually the Queen is not present for these things right?

[Kumorii]

I might've missed it but does anyone know why there wern't any consequences for Ser Criston Cole beating a man to death at the wedding party? I mean.. even if he was a nobody he was still a guest that came with house Velaryon. Did Alicent keep him safe or something? Also speaking of Alicent why is she present for the council meetings? I know she was there before as a cup filler and things but usually the Queen is not present for these things right?

Alicent definitely kept him safe. She stopped him from killing himself at the end because she knew everything. She's using him as a card against Rhaenarys whenever the time is right. He will probably die in the process of that though. Just a hunch, since it coming out will put head on the line, so she only have one shot really. Waiting for the correct timing.

[P for Pancetta]

I consider it a fetus that doesn’t trump the life of the mother, and that the mother gets to make every and all decisions concerning her body.

If you consider a 9 month old baby just a fetus then woman are indeed second class citizen.

Infracted.

[Sanguinerd]

Alicent definitely kept him safe. She stopped him from killing himself at the end because she knew everything. She's using him as a card against Rhaenarys whenever the time is right. He will probably die in the process of that though. Just a hunch, since it coming out will put head on the line, so she only have one shot really. Waiting for the correct timing.

Figured something like that but just making sure.

[Khaza-R]

Alicent definitely kept him safe. She stopped him from killing himself at the end because she knew everything. She's using him as a card against Rhaenarys whenever the time is right. He will probably die in the process of that though. Just a hunch, since it coming out will put head on the line, so she only have one shot really. Waiting for the correct timing.

At this point would that even matter anymore? I would think the accusation that her heirs are bastards would be a lot more damning publicly for her. I think if she plays that card its going to be more vindication for her father than anything. But that's just my take.

[P for Pancetta]

It is, by definition, a 9 month old fetus. It is not a newborn (or baby) until it is birthed.

I just think this is a really really bad argument. Not going to waste more time on it.

What I wonder however is the third option that nobody mentioned. Letting the baby die to save the mother (Which is what happened).

Back in the middle ages up to one in three woman would during childbirth. Most woman wouldn't even know they were pregnant until they felt the fetus inside their womb moving for the first time, this was/is called the quickening, their word of conception was an effluxion. Because there was no way to monitor the fetus' health many woman wouldn't notice as complications arose. However abortion is an old practice, mostly though the use of poisons or beating up the pregnant woman to induce a miscarriage. And in many places, even in medieval England it wasn't illegal. around the 16th century it was outlawed.

Unfortunately we do know extremely little about common people giving birth during those times because it was a private matter and most people couldn't and didn't write about their lives. We know a lot about royal childbirths because a lot is written about that. We also know very little about medieval abortions for the same reason we know little about the lives of ordinary people at the time. But they happened and for the common folks more often in later stages of their pregnancy due to the aforementioned reasons.

"Surgical" abortions where also a thing, except much less safe then today as they used sharp objects to poke at the fetus. which could wound the woman and cause infections. which often lead to infertility or death.

The place of royal woman in this universe is to produce heirs. And Daemon is an ambitious man who only has daughters, then his wife can't birth his next child so he got to choose to safe either the child or his wife, he chooses his wife. His wife on the other hand is in an entirely different situation, she was strapped to a bed powerless waiting for her husband to choose either her or their child, he choose her but this also means that she has to live on to give birth to more children so Daemon can have his heir. After the very traumatic experience she just went through she chose to take control and ends her life.

[PACOX]

That's such an incredibly weird opinion considering it wasn't just her life it was about.

If people want to take their life, regardless of how they do it (whether Westeros or the real world, man or woman), it's their choice, but -never- at the expense of someone else. Or do you not consider the child at this point?

Like, if a dying woman drives her car over a cliff, to end her life on 'her terms', that's ok, right? But what if she had a baby on the back seat? Still ok? Not really, more like murder.

Anyway, why do i bother.

She didn't want to have the c-section, the fetus only had a chance if she had the c-section but would have likely been a still born anyway. There was that one time Vis's baby survived...oh wait it didn't.

Either way it's her choice as she its her body. Her flesh and her blood that the fetus is had been attached to for 9 or whatever months. Her choice to go out her terms. One of the few choices she has in the world of Westeros. And even then she wasn't much of choice was it? They asked Daemon who deferred then she had to steal herself away to get to the her dragon...thats just glossing over the fact that none of these people chose their partners (the women or the men) in the first place, being compelled to marry to produce heirs.

- - - Updated - - -

I just think this is a really really bad argument. Not going to waste more time on it.

What I wonder however is the third option that nobody mentioned. Letting the baby die to save the mother (Which is what happened).

Back in the middle ages up to one in three woman would during childbirth. Most woman wouldn't even know they were pregnant until they felt the fetus inside their womb moving for the first time, this was/is called the quickening, their word of conception was an effluxion. Because there was no way to monitor the fetus' health many woman wouldn't notice as complications arose. However abortion is an old practice, mostly though the use of poisons or beating up the pregnant woman to induce a miscarriage. And in many places, even in medieval England it wasn't illegal. around the 16th century it was outlawed.

Unfortunately we do know extremely little about common people giving birth during those times because it was a private matter and most people couldn't and didn't write about their lives. We know a lot about royal childbirths because a lot is written about that. We also know very little about medieval abortions for the same reason we know little about the lives of ordinary people at the time. But they happened and for the common folks more often in later stages of their pregnancy due to the aforementioned reasons.

"Surgical" abortions where also a thing, except much less safe then today as they used sharp objects to poke at the fetus. which could wound the woman and cause infections. which often lead to infertility or death.

The place of royal woman in this universe is to produce heirs. And Daemon is an ambitious man who only has daughters, then his wife can't birth his next child so he got to choose to safe either the child or his wife, he chooses his wife. His wife on the other hand is in an entirely different situation, she was strapped to a bed powerless waiting for her husband to choose either her or their child, he choose her but this also means that she has to live on to give birth to more children so Daemon can have his heir. After the very traumatic experience she just went through she chose to take control and ends her life.

Youre over complicating it with "what ifs" that don't apply to Laena. Pregnancy is viewed as a woman's battlefield on this show and she had just taken a blade to the chest. She dead, it just didn't happen yet. She would rather to do out via her dragon than to die a slow agonizing death in the bed.

[eschatological]

Warning: This is not the thread or forum to discuss abortion. Get back on topic.

[PACOX]

Alicent definitely kept him safe. She stopped him from killing himself at the end because she knew everything. She's using him as a card against Rhaenarys whenever the time is right. He will probably die in the process of that though. Just a hunch, since it coming out will put head on the line, so she only have one shot really. Waiting for the correct timing.

They also established twice that have no problem with knights/men squaring up and killing each other. You have the early fight between Daemon and Cole and the fight where the boy squared up against his heckler when Rhae was attempted to pick a husband.


So all Criston probably had to say, if anyone asked, was that the guy dishonored Rhae when he whispered to him. Then it's a case of mutual combat.

[P for Pancetta]

She didn't want to have the c-section, the fetus only had a chance if she had the c-section but would have likely been a still born anyway. There was that one time Vis's baby survived...oh wait it didn't.

Either way it's her choice as she its her body. Her flesh and her blood that the fetus is had been attached to for 9 or whatever months. Her choice to go out her terms. One of the few choices she has in the world of Westeros. And even then she wasn't much of choice was it? They asked Daemon who deferred then she had to steal herself away to get to the her dragon...thats just glossing over the fact that none of these people chose their partners (the women or the men) in the first place, being compelled to marry to produce heirs.

- - - Updated - - -



Youre over complicating it with "what ifs" that don't apply to Laena. Pregnancy is viewed as a woman's battlefield on this show and she had just taken a blade to the chest. She dead, it just didn't happen yet. She would rather to do out via her dragon than to die a slow agonizing death in the bed.

You're wrong, they didn't cut the child out, it was dead. She "delivered" a dead baby.

[cubby]

The first five episodes were pretty good. I found myself trying not to compare it to GoT, but of course that's impossible. The depth of stories isn't the same, but there were still good characters, good plot, and enough going on to keep me interested.

The sixth episode was a disappointment. The time jump was too much, they left behind arguably the best actress in the show, and replaced her with someone that for whatever reason doesn't have the same presence.

And to ignore Prince Daemon's story line for 10 years is almost criminal. And to think that the Daemon we saw in the first five episodes would just sit idle for 10 years is insulting.

The story line overall is interesting, however, and should get pretty bloody when Viserys dies.

[Myradin]

Given that challenging the Princess' virtue is considered treason, I'm sure there's plenty of crimes Criston could have come up with to kill him over. He's a king's guard, he has quite a bit of authority.

And to ignore Prince Daemon's story line for 10 years is almost criminal. And to think that the Daemon we saw in the first five episodes would just sit idle for 10 years is insulting.

I mean, he got married and may have helped his wife get a giant dragon, he clearly didn't do nothing.

The story line overall is interesting, however, and should get pretty bloody when Viserys dies.

I'm honestly surprised he survived the time skip. The guy's been having "i'm dieing soon" flags the entire series.

[RH92]

Pretty hard to believe a mother would let her child die when there was a chance for her to survive (even if she would die giving birth by the "knife"). Also, completely different to what happens in the book.

So yea, a "dragonrider death" over the life of her child? Not buying it.

Why is that hard to believe? Women are people and I don't find it strange at all that some would choose to lose the child instead of giving up their own life. I personally don't want to go into this topic as it's extremely complex. However I will say one thing, the men's obssession regarding a woman's body should fucking end. We men signed up only for the fun part, women didn't.

In the books, Laena gave a birth to a malformed son who died soon after. She died to a fever few days later... I think the show did make it clear she would die anyway and there was a low chance the baby is still alive. I mean, she herself would know the best no? Wouldn't she? I am no woman but wouldn't she at least sense the child is even moving within her belly? I am sure that after already giving a birth to twins she would know something is terribly wrong.

[PACOX]

Pretty hard to believe a mother would let her child die when there was a chance for her to survive (even if she would die giving birth by the "knife"). Also, completely different to what happens in the book.

So yea, a "dragonrider death" over the life of her child? Not buying it.

Lets say one of them could live. Was she supposed to die and abandon the other kids but its the more noble (not even) thing to do?

Scenario A: Save baby, 3 kids no longer have a mother.

Scenario B: Save Laena, 2 kids have a mother and she can try again.

Come on.

[hulkgor]

Lets say one of them could live. Was she supposed to die and abandon the other kids but its the more noble (not even) thing to do?

Scenario A: Save baby, 3 kids no longer have a mother.

Scenario B: Save Laena, 2 kids have a mother and she can try again.

Come on.

Erm. It is stated very clearly that she would not survive childbirth, by the 'knife' or otherwise. How are you even making a scenario B in that situation? I'm not discussing abortion or women rights, in case that wasn't clear, just the episode of the tv show.