Any new end game content in DF ?

[Nymrohd]

Asking for a feature that eats dev time only to disappear at the sight of the new expansion is not 'more permanent game modes' though. I'd argue those types of features hurt the game more than anything. I would call mythic+ a ''permanent game mode" and yes, in that case, I would like more features like that. That are not just hard abandoned at the next expansion, but improved upon and levied as a viable end-game option.

The funny thing is, it was not intended to be. We have interviews from Ion saying that M+ was planned for Legion only and that it only stuck around because of the positive reception.
Now granted, many expansion features are thematically stuck in their expansion. Torghast would not make much sense out of Shadowlands. Island Expeditions though could with a tiny bit of effort (and Orgrimmar needs a proper dock anyway).

[Venziir]

What are those two ? never heard about them

Heaven forbid you do some actual research your self.....

[chrisisvacant]

The funny thing is, it was not intended to be. We have interviews from Ion saying that M+ was planned for Legion only and that it only stuck around because of the positive reception.
Now granted, many expansion features are thematically stuck in their expansion. Torghast would not make much sense out of Shadowlands. Island Expeditions though could with a tiny bit of effort (and Orgrimmar needs a proper dock anyway).

Well, Torghast and the symbol maze thing in Minas Tirith or whatever would make for solid variety that, conceptually, can be brought forward.

For example, they could call the final season of every expansion the Season of Mastery, and then every dungeon has the torghast-style shuffling of routes. And you can build puzzles to progress back into the dungeons rather than trash fests that seemed to become the norm after Wrath (which is why MgT had much stronger packs of trash and more competitive placement).

The problem with these features is they don't support them even when the expansion is current. They release it and let it go, only to return a season or two later in response to massive negative feedback/crying. Hence the changes to every single expansion system to date.

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The funny thing is, it was not intended to be. We have interviews from Ion saying that M+ was planned for Legion only and that it only stuck around because of the positive reception.
Now granted, many expansion features are thematically stuck in their expansion. Torghast would not make much sense out of Shadowlands. Island Expeditions though could with a tiny bit of effort (and Orgrimmar needs a proper dock anyway).

Well, Torghast and the symbol maze thing in Minas Tirith or whatever would make for solid variety that, conceptually, can be brought forward.

For example, they could call the final season of every expansion the Season of Mastery, and then every dungeon has the torghast-style shuffling of routes. And you can build puzzles to progress back into the dungeons rather than trash fests that seemed to become the norm after Wrath (which is why MgT had much stronger packs of trash and more competitive placement, no idea why they backpedaled).

The problem with these features is they don't support them even when the expansion is current. They release it and let it go, only to return a season or two later in response to massive negative feedback/crying. Hence the changes to every single expansion system to date.

[Celement]

Well, Torghast and the symbol maze thing in Minas Tirith or whatever would make for solid variety that, conceptually, can be brought forward.

For example, they could call the final season of every expansion the Season of Mastery, and then every dungeon has the torghast-style shuffling of routes. And you can build puzzles to progress back into the dungeons rather than trash fests that seemed to become the norm after Wrath (which is why MgT had much stronger packs of trash and more competitive placement).

The problem with these features is they don't support them even when the expansion is current. They release it and let it go, only to return a season or two later in response to massive negative feedback/crying. Hence the changes to every single expansion system to date.

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Well, Torghast and the symbol maze thing in Minas Tirith or whatever would make for solid variety that, conceptually, can be brought forward.

For example, they could call the final season of every expansion the Season of Mastery, and then every dungeon has the torghast-style shuffling of routes. And you can build puzzles to progress back into the dungeons rather than trash fests that seemed to become the norm after Wrath (which is why MgT had much stronger packs of trash and more competitive placement, no idea why they backpedaled).

The problem with these features is they don't support them even when the expansion is current. They release it and let it go, only to return a season or two later in response to massive negative feedback/crying. Hence the changes to every single expansion system to date.

Then they shouldn't waste their time on failed concepts but improve on ones that work. Mage tower worked people enjoyed being challenged. Visions had mixed success and ultimately showed a sudo timer wasn't well received.

Islands... I'm gonna be honest islands are some really solid leveling content but failed as an endgame activity. Warfronts on heroic were alright but had a grindy you have to try to lose feeling to them that failed.

Torghast took the worst of every system and made a turd...

I know this is kind of ranty but blizzard needs to listen to playerbase and not waste time reinventing the wheel with new modes. Just give us a mage tower and call it a day.

[VinceVega]

Other than the usual M+ and raiding and since we won't have any Islands expeditions or Torghast like content, anything new not announced or hinted at ?

Why? No one likes anything. So this time they go with the create your own content and minigames

[chrisisvacant]

Then they shouldn't waste their time on failed concepts but improve on ones that work. Mage tower worked people enjoyed being challenged. Visions had mixed success and ultimately showed a sudo timer wasn't well received.

Islands... I'm gonna be honest islands are some really solid leveling content but failed as an endgame activity. Warfronts on heroic were alright but had a grindy you have to try to lose feeling to them that failed.

Torghast took the worst of every system and made a turd...

I know this is kind of ranty but blizzard needs to listen to playerbase and not waste time reinventing the wheel with new modes. Just give us a mage tower and call it a day.

I mean, they can't just call it a day because part of why people come back is to try out the new systems. They get their juicy box sales and MAUs at the start like they like it.

And if they kept more of these systems and devoted resources to them, like they do plenty other game systems that didn't always exist (like M, M+, etc), there would be a natural staunching effect. That is, there would be less room for more bullshit systems to beta test for a few years and more room for improving a smaller amount of stable features.

[Revamp Man]

Then they shouldn't waste their time on failed concepts but improve on ones that work. Mage tower worked people enjoyed being challenged. Visions had mixed success and ultimately showed a sudo timer wasn't well received.

Islands... I'm gonna be honest islands are some really solid leveling content but failed as an endgame activity. Warfronts on heroic were alright but had a grindy you have to try to lose feeling to them that failed.

Torghast took the worst of every system and made a turd...

I know this is kind of ranty but blizzard needs to listen to playerbase and not waste time reinventing the wheel with new modes. Just give us a mage tower and call it a day.

can we stop acting like mage tower wasnt shit on by the overall community for being too elitist until they got to overgear it.
islands werent bad but the fact blizzard made them they best and almost only way to grind AP hurt the idea plus the fact they werent as random as they were advertised

[Celement]

I mean, they can't just call it a day because part of why people come back is to try out the new systems. They get their juicy box sales and MAUs at the start like they like it.

And if they kept more of these systems and devoted resources to them, like they do plenty other game systems that didn't always exist (like M, M+, etc), there would be a natural staunching effect. That is, there would be less room for more bullshit systems to beta test for a few years and more room for improving a smaller amount of stable features.

I've never once head of a player coming back or tryi g out wow for a " system".

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can we stop acting like mage tower wasnt shit on by the overall community for being too elitist until they got to overgear it.
islands werent bad but the fact blizzard made them they best and almost only way to grind AP hurt the idea plus the fact they werent as random as they were advertised

That's the same loud minority that screamed they would love covenants and once they launched every spec but maybe 2-3 outliners had over 70% consistently.

We can just ignore the mouth breathers they showed how minuscule they actually are with sl.

[Musta]

I want another Suramar. It was great.

[Revamp Man]

I've never once head of a player coming back or tryi g out wow for a " system".

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That's the same loud minority that screamed they would love covenants and once they launched every spec but maybe 2-3 outliners had over 70% consistently.

We can just ignore the mouth breathers they showed how minuscule they actually are with sl.

we dont know what the minority or majority think
mage tower was shit on very openly at first regardless of if it was a ton of people or not it happened
was it amazing content?? absolutely
was it seen as that at the beginning?? no not by the people on forums or twitter

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if we get anything it will probably be in the same design as islands but with a box of many things option as well

[wushootaki]

Warfronts failed because there was no PvP version.

Warfronts would have been lauded as one of the best game additions ever, had they just made the effort to get a pvp version working.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Other than the usual M+ and raiding and since we won't have any Islands expeditions or Torghast like content, anything new not announced or hinted at ?

Hidden fishing nodes and spear fishing
Places to cast fishing nets to collect later (think tiller's farm)
World events including invasions, a regular assault on some enemy base, a shared outdoor world buff
Hunting expeditions with a bodyguard pet you power up
Dragon riding races and competition events
Mountain climbing
Centaur clan wars (unconfirmed)
Picture taking expeditions
Profession dailies and weeklies
Special rares that skinners lure out

So literally zero content

[Revamp Man]

Hidden fishing nodes and spear fishing
Places to cast fishing nets to collect later (think tiller's farm)
World events including invasions, a regular assault on some enemy base, a shared outdoor world buff
Hunting expeditions with a bodyguard pet you power up
Dragon riding races and competition events
Mountain climbing
Centaur clan wars (unconfirmed)
Picture taking expeditions
Profession dailies and weeklies
Special rares that skinners lure out

So literally zero content

all that non-content
i bet it doesnt give me mythic gear either so it is not actual content because gear is the only meaningful reward

[Tarba]

To be fair most of their failed expansion features could have been great if they were not simply abandoned as soon as they were out.

Pvp warfronts could have been a very nice addition.
And also changing the way you got resources, because it was pretty boring. It had an old alterac valley vibe.

Pve island expedition became a ridiculous rush mass aoe. And not really an expédition to find and discover. But it had random events and NPC with player ai.

The mop farm was a pretty nice touch completely forgotten.

The wod Garrison was a start for player housing but they decided that it would not be an interesting housing system at all and butchered it and let it die.

I did not try thorgast but a solo roguelite element can be interesting if well done.

[Biomega]

Warfronts failed because there was no PvP version.

Warfronts would have been lauded as one of the best game additions ever, had they just made the effort to get a pvp version working.

Pressing X to doubt here.

That's just a battleground with extra steps. Steps that de-emphasize actual PvP. Introducing more points of mechanical failure into random-group PvP sounds like exactly the thing that'd keep people AWAY from this. It'd probably be interesting in a super organized group, but it'd be an absolute shitshow with randos - that's why the PvE version basically can't be failed, too, by the way.

People have this tendency to look at things and only think of the ideal scenario. But that happens 0.001% of the time, and it's not worth the toxic hell hole of the other 99.999%.

[WowIsDead64]

Other than the usual M+ and raiding and since we won't have any Islands expeditions or Torghast like content, anything new not announced or hinted at ?

That's core DF's problem. Blizzard try to save Legion's design for 3rd time in a row via "Let's try without borrowed power this time", but they don't understand, that it's pointless, because core gameplay in this content is bad, so it's just waste of even more time, instead of actually fixing game. Players can't be attracted by cosmetic things only. Such as 100500 Dracthyr customizations. They need content to play. Things to do. Game can't be run on things, such as 3%/mob progress bar WQs. It needs real content.

[Celement]

we dont know what the minority or majority think
mage tower was shit on very openly at first regardless of if it was a ton of people or not it happened
was it amazing content?? absolutely
was it seen as that at the beginning?? no not by the people on forums or twitter

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if we get anything it will probably be in the same design as islands but with a box of many things option as well

It was hated by terrible players but given how utterly packed and even now how busy the area is it falls on pretty deaf ears. Its died down a bit of course but you can still see it being ran.

[wushootaki]

Pressing X to doubt here.

That's just a battleground with extra steps. Steps that de-emphasize actual PvP. Introducing more points of mechanical failure into random-group PvP sounds like exactly the thing that'd keep people AWAY from this. It'd probably be interesting in a super organized group, but it'd be an absolute shitshow with randos - that's why the PvE version basically can't be failed, too, by the way.

People have this tendency to look at things and only think of the ideal scenario. But that happens 0.001% of the time, and it's not worth the toxic hell hole of the other 99.999%.

And what were heroic warfronts? You couldn't auto-queue into them, and had to form your own group.

PvEvP has always been considered attractive (despite Blizzard's inability to properly balance open world things like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad). There are still swathes of the community that tout original AV as one of the pinnacles of large scale combat in MMOs (not just WoW). If the goal was to make things feel like the RTS, part of that was also being able to play against enemy players. And with a cap of only 20 players, it wouldn't necessarily run into the same performance issues as 40 v 40, or uncapped vs uncapped (Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, Ashran).

Even in alpha and beta, plenty of the community kept asking "But warfronts will have pvp right?" meaning there was a market for them. And largely, warfronts got written off as bad in the beta when they announced there wasn't a PvP mode, and people realiized how faceroll they were.

On paper:

You collect a resource to build up your troops, while fighting npcs to take key locations on a map that give you some sort of advantage, pushing forward which culminates in a final confrontation with the enemy boss.

This describes:

- Alterac Valley
- Isle of Conquest
- Ashran
- Warfronts

One of these things is not like the other.

[Celement]

And what were heroic warfronts? You couldn't auto-queue into them, and had to form your own group.

PvEvP has always been considered attractive (despite Blizzard's inability to properly balance open world things like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad). There are still swathes of the community that tout original AV as one of the pinnacles of large scale combat in MMOs (not just WoW). If the goal was to make things feel like the RTS, part of that was also being able to play against enemy players. And with a cap of only 20 players, it wouldn't necessarily run into the same performance issues as 40 v 40, or uncapped vs uncapped (Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, Ashran).

Even in alpha and beta, plenty of the community kept asking "But warfronts will have pvp right?" meaning there was a market for them. And largely, warfronts got written off as bad in the beta when they announced there wasn't a PvP mode, and people realiized how faceroll they were.

On paper:

You collect a resource to build up your troops, while fighting npcs to take key locations on a map that give you some sort of advantage, pushing forward which culminates in a final confrontation with the enemy boss.

This describes:

- Alterac Valley
- Isle of Conquest
- Ashran
- Warfronts

One of these things is not like the other.

I think a lot of the fond memories come from a more naive playerbase as well. Even if you brought back classic av ( the actual one not the one on wow classic) it wouldn't be a long back and forth like it was back in the day. It would be a rather quick bg where players who min max would cut their the enemy nocs quickly.

I admit league of legends and dota are compelling games but I can't see them working with wows engine or class design.

[LazarusLong]

can we stop acting like mage tower wasnt shit on by the overall community for being too elitist until they got to overgear it.
islands werent bad but the fact blizzard made them they best and almost only way to grind AP hurt the idea plus the fact they werent as random as they were advertised

Personally I hated go go go part of the islands. Would be nice to explore all of items and events, given how many cosmetics they tied to it.

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That's core DF's problem. Blizzard try to save Legion's design for 3rd time in a row via "Let's try without borrowed power this time", but they don't understand, that it's pointless, because core gameplay in this content is bad, so it's just waste of even more time, instead of actually fixing game. Players can't be attracted by cosmetic things only. Such as 100500 Dracthyr customizations. They need content to play. Things to do. Game can't be run on things, such as 3%/mob progress bar WQs. It needs real content.

More dungeons, more story, more varied reps, more Suramars. Would be fine expansion in my book.