is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[Kalistez]

For me Raiding died when it stopped being fun and started feeling like a second job.

The tier forge is one of the best ideas that they have come up with in a long time.

[Celement]

For me Raiding died when it stopped being fun and started feeling like a second job.

The tier forge is one of the best ideas that they have come up with in a long time.

I kinda wish people would just do what they enjoyed rather then what they deem as prestigious.

[potis]

Anyway - do you have some logs to show off? Because from what i know raiding 6 hours a week is far below standard for guilds killing mythic bosses inthe first week while also gearing up from hc.

Thats basically what most people like to not admit.

The average guild even up to like top 250, the first and/or second week of Mythic they go harder, they do kill anywhere from 2 to 5 bosses, the easier ones, then they get stuck on the harder bosses for weeks.

What they always forget to mention is how there are always extended or extra raids the first weeks, cause lets face it, new content is fun but when its time to show off, they magically forget it "We only raid 3 nights, sometimes 2".

Or something like "WE WASTED A DAY ON HC RAIDING SO IT DOESNT COUNT! THATS WHY WE RAIDED AN EXTRA DAY", there are always excuses like that.

And then with a quick check, some guild claiming to be 3 days/3 hours and 2 days when on farm, literally raided something like 20 hours on the first weeks , which is okay, but dont act like hot shit when you raid that much.

20 hours raiding for my HC guild is literally anywhere from 5 weeks to 10 weeks with how many times we have to cancel Sunday because an important role has a wedding, or extra work or w/e and raid group is unbalanced so we dont even raid, with Sepulcher as example i think we raided only 2hr/week for 5 weeks in a row xD

Time in the end isnt the problem, skill will always be, but people acting like anyone that isnt raiding Mythic dont know what exactly is going on, unless your guild gets CE, maximum like 3 weeks after the world first, you are just an irrelevant getting carried by WF video tactic and gear, while also raiding way too much and claiming you arent.

I mean, i gave IRL familiars that are keyboard turners and mediocre or down right terrible players Top 50 and top 80 world kills back in WoTLK cause we raided way too much and the game was joke difficulty.

Now it isnt any different if you are half decent, you eventually learn if you throw yourself at it, or gear carries you for anyone outside like Top 50-Top 100 world raiders.

[Dorothyjean]

I started M+ about a month and a half ago and was strictly a raider prior to this albeit only at a Heroic level. After a month and a half I can safely say I have cut back my raiding from 7 days a week with 3-4 characters (friends pug group for one day) to one solo heroic guild and I do M+ on my remaining alts (I have 28 60s for the record) and this has to be one of the most stress free times I've had in WoW. I still love raiding but I enjoyed getting gear from the raid and doing my best to "keep up" with the rest of my guildies who would all be a good 10+ ilvls ahead of me but now that I have caught up to them (respectively) raiding is just not as much fun.

I run a lot of 2s because of gearing up my multitude of alts and it did wonders to learn the basics/foundation of these M+ dungeons and just completed my first +19 with my guild yesterday. The one thing I saw from the original post though;

"for real, anyone think a +15 is hard as 20M mithyc raid?"

Honestly, from a guild perspective and having pugged a 15, a +15 is easier than Heroic raiding at this point. As long as you are with like-minded people the +15s I've done and the +19 I did felt so much more relaxing albeit intense as compared to Heroic, let alone Mythic raiding. Any +15 I have done is easier than Heroic Sylvanas... or these Fated raids depending on which Affix you get like Creation soaks for H Sire last week... that felt far harder than any +15 I have done up to this point. Even pugging in that 10-14 range felt easier even with having to, sometimes, deal with the odd person leaving because they're grumpy about how things turned out. I would much rather deal with that week in and week out than having to watch people show up to raids with no enchants, not doing mechanics etc. in a Heroic raid let alone a Mythic raid.

I've spoken out against M+ in the past because I love raiding and I had to take the word of people saying a +15 or higher is about personal responsibility more than it being "tougher" than heroic raiding but now that I've done it... +15s are much easier compared to what it takes to do a Heroic raid and not just "showing up" for it. It's been a breath of fresh air and watching the 2-3 times Lower Karazhan has been nerfed only proves to me how easy Blizzard is making M+ and it is affecting raiding big time ... BUT that being said I honestly don't care anymore. I still enjoy raiding but M+ has been such a breath of fresh air and has allowed me to ditch the dead weight of stress I used to deal with during raid being surrounded by 3-4 people who just knowingly went out of their way to make raiding shitastic to do. I'm not a super player and can handle my AOTC's from here on out but if this is the best Blizzard can offer in the way of "raiding" ... they either need to up their game with it and become truly innovative or else it goes the way of the Dodo and long live M+.

[facefist]

We didnt start with normal we did normal this tier because of tier sets.

I call bs on you - it seems like you dont even know what raiding was like this last tier.

I am not the one making outrageous claims or claiming that i am just per default a better player(like an actual child lol)

Nice logs, you probs raid 3x week and can't kill a single mythic boss.

[Nymrohd]

Basically this. A small group would prefer to wipe if they duck up their rotation….

Always felt that Blizzard needs to take over the leaderboards minigame to change meter whoring behaviour. If they added scored leaderboards for raids people would be more likely to care about group performance instead of just their own scores.

[ClassicPeon]

Nice logs, you probs raid 3x week and can't kill a single mythic boss.

Once a gain - i am not the one making wild claims. And you keep trying to divert from the subject - i'm ngl its really obvious you where just straight up lying.

The barrier of entry into mythic is the amount of people you need. You telling yourself that the dropoff of people killing the last boss on hc and the first boss on mythic is because mythic is just so much harder is quite simply laughable.

Mythic raiding is a time investment in the game that most people just dont want.

[Engal]

Raid lacks incentive...

They should bring back seals to roll on a boss with a chance of loot, they should add Emblem of Heroism that allows you to buy / upgrade raid stuff, and that would drop every single time you kill a boss, with a weekly cap, like valor, not once per boss ( with a high cost on item you can buy )

This will solve a major part of the issues with raids.

[facefist]

Once a gain - i am not the one making wild claims. And you keep trying to divert from the subject - i'm ngl its really obvious you where just straight up lying.

The barrier of entry into mythic is the amount of people you need. You telling yourself that the dropoff of people killing the last boss on hc and the first boss on mythic is because mythic is just so much harder is quite simply laughable.

Mythic raiding is a time investment in the game that most people just dont want.

Still takes me less hours than you play.

People just love excuses. Your mom told you that you can be anything, football star, movie star or a CEO of big company. You tell yourself that it's true, but you just didn't want to spend the time which is the only reason you didn't become one of those.

I'm the one who tells you it's not true.

[ClassicPeon]

Still takes me less hours than you play.

People just love excuses. Your mom told you that you can be anything, football star, movie star or a CEO of big company. You tell yourself that it's true, but you just didn't want to spend the time which is the only reason you didn't become one of those.

I'm the one who tells you it's not true.

Yes you made your point clear from the start- the problem with your point is that its bs. You have nothing to back it up.

It this some sort of projection thing - because it seems weirdly specific?

[facefist]

Yes you made your point clear from the start- the problem with your point is that its bs. You have nothing to back it up.

It this some sort of projection thing - because it seems weirdly specific?

Wowhead.com is where your backup is. You just refuse to look at it.

[Lolites]

Raid lacks incentive...

a lot of best weapons are from raids
best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season)
highest ilvl items are from mythic raid
LOWEST ilvl from mythic raid vault is the same as HIGHEST ilvl from m+ vault

yep, totaly no incentive to raid...

[enigma77]

a lot of best weapons are from raids
best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season)
highest ilvl items are from mythic raid
LOWEST ilvl from mythic raid vault is the same as HIGHEST ilvl from m+ vault

yep, totaly no incentive to raid...

idk about the current season (it's a weird one) but raid incentives have to match the challenge/commitment/difficulty

Mythic raiding has become a colossal pain in the ass, it's soul crushingly unforgiving and difficult, it can reward slightly higher ilvl loot and still not be incentive enough

the solution is to simply make raiding easier imo

[ClassicPeon]

Wowhead.com is where your backup is. You just refuse to look at it.

You need to be specific.

[Sanguinerd]

I don't really understand, and it's never been properly explained why the mythic+ vault rewards higher than the key you've completed yet for raiding it does not.

Doing a mythic 15 is arguably much easier, faster and less time consuming than completing a heroic raid. Yet for all your efforts you basically get punished because if you'd used that same time doing 8 dungeons (you don't even have to time) you'd get better rewards.

So part of the OP question; yes mythic plus is killing raiding below mythic.

The catalyst on the other hand is a fantastic addition.

[Twdft]

I don't really understand, and it's never been properly explained why the mythic+ vault rewards higher than the key you've completed

Longterm progress. Without the vault giving higher than end of dungeon you could nolife for a week or two to get bis gear and after that no power increase ever again. As it is now you need 15/16 weeks of perfect luck to get bis from M+ alone.

[Sanguinerd]

Longterm progress. Without the vault giving higher than end of dungeon you could nolife for a week or two to get bis gear and after that no power increase ever again. As it is now you need 15/16 weeks of perfect luck to get bis from M+ alone.

Yeah but compared to raiding that doesn't seem completely fair does it? It doesn't really to me all things considered.

I mean really like raiding, but I'm not a huge fan of mythic+ yet I'm almost forced to do it because if I don't I'll be behind on gear compared to the rest of my guild thus feel like holding them back. And since gearing through raid is absolutely trash right now that leaves me little choice.

[Twdft]

Yeah but compared to raiding that doesn't seem completely fair does it? It doesn't really to me all things considered.

I mean really like raiding, but I'm not a huge fan of mythic+ yet I'm almost forced to do it because if I don't I'll be behind on gear compared to the rest of my guild thus feel like holding them back. And since gearing through raid is absolutely trash right now that leaves me little choice.

The difference is that you can't nolife raids due to lockouts. Even with max luck and getting traded from your friends you need a couple weeks to get bis, and most guilds do not clear the whole raid immediately. So raiders are faster geared than M+ players, but still need 2+ months so there is no need to give even higher ilvl in vault to keep people playing.

[jeezusisacasual]

Yeah but compared to raiding that doesn't seem completely fair does it? It doesn't really to me all things considered.

I mean really like raiding, but I'm not a huge fan of mythic+ yet I'm almost forced to do it because if I don't I'll be behind on gear compared to the rest of my guild thus feel like holding them back. And since gearing through raid is absolutely trash right now that leaves me little choice.

The goal is to provide long term gear progression, similar to how the end bosses in raids give higher item level as an incentive its just that the demands of raiding are far more then mythic plus which in turn hurts its viability. You are not forced at all to do mythic plus much like how i am not forced to raid unless YOUR GUILD puts those parameters onto its members but thats a guild problem wanting to min/max the shit out of everything and less on the other players. Gearing is always going to be trash to a degree in this game since you can not spend a currency on the items your farming or finding but they have a problem with people knowing that they will be done by X date and unsub but also a ton are doing exactly that once their own goals are completed, if i was a mythic raider i would cancel my sub once i cleared the mythic raid 1 time.

[KrayZ33]

My opinion on this:

Trash is killing raids. As well as no way to upgrade Raid gear through a currency (normally)
The insane amount of time you spend inside raids just to get from Boss A to Boss B, which itself is not part of the "goal" (and thus a waste of time to do) is annoying.

I know people also raid for rewards but that's not really what I'm after when I raid.
I want to have fun *doing* the content and not gear as a compensation after I did something that was boring or annoying for me... or rather, I want it both.

Another factor is that it's harder to design raids that are the right amount of challenge for what you feel like you want to do.
In M+ I can just pick the right key level.
In WoW it's most likely just a few bosses that match whatever skill level you are playing on or that match the mood you are in right now.
Some bosses will feel too hard, some others will be too easy. Both experiences are not fun, not to mention that the skill-level in your generic guild or raid group is without a doubt much bigger than your M+ group, so it's usually more frustrating to play in general depending on what group members expect or don't expect from each other.

I'm also raiding in FFXIV, the skill level inside my static is rather big, I play the harder/hardest content with actual clickers. If raids there were like in WoW, I would've killed myself most likely or simply quit playing with them.
Running to the boss after wiping, eating buff food after every wipe again, buffing everyone up again, just because someone out of 15/20/30 players is always too stupid to do a simple mechanic - yeah... no thanks.
In FFXIV the player number is smaller and I'm back in the fight in less than 15 seconds