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  1. #221
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Spoken like a person that didn't play cata at launch. Shit was a horrible grind and led to massive guild burnout.
    Was it really? I very much enjoyed the multiple raids and felt they were very solid raids. You don't have to clear everything every week you know.

  2. #222
    It's the design of the raids that are killing them. You have to be in the top 100 or so, for Mythic raids to be an effective gearing method. Killing 2-3 Mythic bosses just gets you nothing and Heroic is way too low item level compared to everything else. As a semi-casual guild your only source of loot is maybe getting lucky on first 4 bosses on mythic getting a loot piece a week and one mythic level and one heroic end boss level loot from the vault, that are shared with mythic ilevel loot from M+.

    I don't really know what the answer is, some people seem to like the absolutely punishing nature of Mythic raids, but maybe they could all just be for achievements and mounts. While Heroic is the highest ilevel loot from raids and is comparable to M+15 vault loot. As is, there just isn't any real benefit on running Heroic unless you really like raiding with your friends. Especially now in season 4 when you can instantly upgrade your M+ end of dungeon loot to higher than Heroic raid loot and spend a lot less time doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Was it really? I very much enjoyed the multiple raids and felt they were very solid raids. You don't have to clear everything every week you know.
    Mm. I don't remember Cata start being bad, you basically had quite a few bosses to kill that weren't even super hard. Certainly less grindy than the current version of WoW. The heroic dungeons were refreshingly hard, yet still quite easy. I truly had more fun at the start of Cata as a raider than any part of WotLK outside of Ulduar hard modes, maybe DS was a bit of a let down, especially with Madness being so easy. But overall the espansion was pretty awesome and Firelands alone made it all pretty freaking awesome.

    Maybe some guilds were slower and couldn't clear BWD and Twilight in the same night, but I don't remember it being bad, there was fairly little trash to kill in both raids and TotFW had even less trash to kill. You spent more tíme flying and grouping up than killing trash from what I remember.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Was it really? I very much enjoyed the multiple raids and felt they were very solid raids. You don't have to clear everything every week you know.
    There was nothing wrong with the raids, there was everything wrong with front loading the content that much and then only having firelands and dragon soul for the rest of the xpac.

    Also save me the "you don't have to clear everything in a week" bs. You clearly didn't raid heroic at the time and full clear them before firelands if you don't understand what a grind it was and with current WoW difficulty from more recent expansions trying to pull some bullshit like that would pretty much be the killing blow to the entire raid scene outside of the top 0.01% or super casual people that never clear mythic.

    It's really painful to see people act like cata launch raid content isn't a problem now when it was a very real problem and blizzard publicly addressed it at the start of MoP by announcing they wouldn't be doing that again even while having 3 beta tested raids ready to go. Just because you where 14 years old and only clearing normal doesn't change the actual reality of what went down.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-09-10 at 02:21 PM.

  4. #224
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    There was nothing wrong with the raids, there was everything wrong with front loading the content that much and then only having firelands and dragon soul for the rest of the xpac.

    Also save me the "you don't have to clear everything in a week" bs. You clearly didn't raid heroic at the time and full clear them before firelands if you don't understand what a grind it was and with current WoW difficulty from more recent expansions trying to pull some bullshit like that would pretty much be the killing blow to the entire raid scene outside of the top 0.01% or super casual people that never clear mythic.

    It's really painful to see people act like cata launch raid content isn't a problem now when it was a very real problem and blizzard publicly addressed it at the start of MoP by announcing they wouldn't be doing that again even while having 3 beta tested raids ready to go. Just because you where 14 years old and only clearing normal doesn't change the actual reality of what went down.
    I definitely cleared them on Heroic and was about 25 at the time. We did not really bother with Throne until both Nef and Cho were down tbh. I've no idea how you are judging people but not everyone plays the game how you do I guess.

  5. #225
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    "huge oversight"? In what sense? Are you questioning Blizz's business model, and/or their assessment of their player base? This just in (it was actually mentioned during the Dragon Isles reveal): more than half of WoW players play solo. If players decide to make friends in-game, it's easier to find 4 friends to meet with occasionally than 10+.

    If the business model was to cater to those who make it their primary hobby and plan their free time around WoW (which was maybe more common when it was so trendy that even South Park was making episodes about it), then focusing on raiding might make sense. But Blizz knows most of their customers aren't playing the game that way anymore. Most WoW players are casuals, and their subscription fees provide most of Blizz's income.

    Now I support keeping some rewards and even some content for the most dedicated players. I would even argue that it's more fun for casuals to know there's a deeper level they could push for if they ever decide to. But I disagree that focusing the game around raids is in Blizz's best interest.
    Yes i'm questioning all of it. Mythic+ serves the interests of the few. Ya know the few people that rush through everything without actually enjoying the expansion for what it is. If you don't keep up with their pace you'll be left in the dust never able to catch up. The heroic dungeons of olde were a much better mechanism for gearing, especially when you could grind away badges/points for a piece you actually wanted and not just wish upon the RNG gods like now.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes i'm questioning all of it. Mythic+ serves the interests of the few. Ya know the few people that rush through everything without actually enjoying the expansion for what it is. If you don't keep up with their pace you'll be left in the dust never able to catch up. The heroic dungeons of olde were a much better mechanism for gearing, especially when you could grind away badges/points for a piece you actually wanted and not just wish upon the RNG gods like now.
    Hmmm... I respectfully disagree. I do not play at all competitively now; in fact I only came back to muck around for a month or so in world content. But some of my fondest WoW memories are from my M+ team back in Legion and BFA. We knew each other better and had tighter teamwork than any raid team or guild I've ever been part of. We worked to make each other better, and we pushed ourselves to not let the team down. We knew just how to help each other, and who needed help with what. It was among the best times I've had in the game.

    To Infinity and Beyond!

  7. #227
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    Hmmm... I respectfully disagree. I do not play at all competitively now; in fact I only came back to muck around for a month or so in world content. But some of my fondest WoW memories are from my M+ team back in Legion and BFA. We knew each other better and had tighter teamwork than any raid team or guild I've ever been part of. We worked to make each other better, and we pushed ourselves to not let the team down. We knew just how to help each other, and who needed help with what. It was among the best times I've had in the game.
    That's personal bias. The game hasn't been good by a long shot since WoD. Sure it was cut short for reasons we'll probably know but the raids were top notch, PvP gearing was probably the best it's ever been and Challenge Modes were just coming into their own. If they had kept glyph around and added more abilities to the talent point system they remove in Mists the game would be top notch. Instead it's just a shell of it's former self.

  8. #228
    Nope. Raids are dying cause they are unrewarding and awfully slow in this day and age where there are alternatives.
    Forge and mythic+ aren't the problems. The raid is.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Mythic+ serves the interests of the few. .
    Yes, the most popular form of PvE content servers the interests of "a few."

    That's personal bias. The game hasn't been good by a long shot since WoD.
    This is pretty :chefskiss: "You are using personal bias. Now here is my personally biased opinion."
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Nope. Raids are dying cause they are unrewarding and awfully slow in this day and age where there are alternatives.
    Forge and mythic+ aren't the problems. The raid is.
    This right here, if you remove the incentives for the time required you get down to the reason why its not as fun or enjoyable. Maybe some more quality of life should be added to raiding similar to how mythic plus has.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    This right here, if you remove the incentives for the time required you get down to the reason why its not as fun or enjoyable. Maybe some more quality of life should be added to raiding similar to how mythic plus has.
    I would rather they just make raiding closer to FFXIV, smaller quicker more compact raids, make heroic like savage and mythic like ultimate (cosmetic only for prestige) or have the same larger raids they have now with just a few bosses having a mythic mode for the high end raiders to tackle. So many of my guild quit as people just dont have the time to commit 3-4 evenings every week to clear mythic each tier, and when you dont have time to mythic raid you lose out on the best gear, which frustrated a lot of my guidlies into leaving

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I legitimately do not know what to say to that. To me it just sounds extremely pretentious.

    You dont kill mythic bosses in the first week by that standard - otherwise please feel free to give up some logs.

    The narcassism here is so tangible i can peel it off.

    I dont know where you are getting your numbers from but i'd be really - really interested in knowing that.

    Personally i raid 1x 3 hours a week and clear hc within a month - usually. In the end of SL we just skipped it cus the gear was pointless and we arent enough to do mythic.

    Anyway - do you have some logs to show off? Because from what i know raiding 6 hours a week is far below standard for guilds killing mythic bosses inthe first week while also gearing up from hc.
    But he is right... to a degree.
    My old heroic guild raided 3-4 times a week. Everyone knew the tactics and they honestly tried hard. But they have never been able to reliably clear heroic.
    I swtiched to my mythic guild. We basically raid two times a week a max 3 hours including break. We never cleared mythic but we get reliably to the last few bosses at some point.
    Some people will never progress into mythic. Skill is for many the reason. Not the only. But a big one.
    And that is fine. That is the reason we have different difficulties with basically the same rewards (mythic gets a bit of a glow) you can get next expansion while facerolling.
    No one NEEDs to clear everything. And not everbody CAN clear everything.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    If so, it's only proof that raiding needs to die because it's not nearly as popular a game mode in 2022.

    But also no! It's not actually happening, there are still plenty of people raiding at different levels, and a lot of folks still enjoy it.
    This is the answer, not sure why the thread continued past this post.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Opeth69 View Post
    I would rather they just make raiding closer to FFXIV, smaller quicker more compact raids, make heroic like savage and mythic like ultimate (cosmetic only for prestige) or have the same larger raids they have now with just a few bosses having a mythic mode for the high end raiders to tackle. So many of my guild quit as people just dont have the time to commit 3-4 evenings every week to clear mythic each tier, and when you dont have time to mythic raid you lose out on the best gear, which frustrated a lot of my guidlies into leaving
    i agree with that and would like a similar approach to handle the current raiding situation. Perhaps i am in the minority but gear is not a big motivator for me as i stop my sub 2-3 weeks in a patch based on when i get KSM and i will reactivate it slightly before the next season to prepare whatever i am maining again and my last toon only got to 288 Ilvl which is well below the big mythic raiders.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Nope. Raids are dying cause they are unrewarding and awfully slow in this day and age where there are alternatives.
    Forge and mythic+ aren't the problems. The raid is.
    Well why are they unrewarding?

    MAybe because you get everything from the raid easier from somewhere else?
    Or What you egt doesn't even look special as you get that also from somewhere else...

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    But he is right... to a degree.
    My old heroic guild raided 3-4 times a week. Everyone knew the tactics and they honestly tried hard. But they have never been able to reliably clear heroic.
    I swtiched to my mythic guild. We basically raid two times a week a max 3 hours including break. We never cleared mythic but we get reliably to the last few bosses at some point.
    Some people will never progress into mythic. Skill is for many the reason. Not the only. But a big one.
    And that is fine. That is the reason we have different difficulties with basically the same rewards (mythic gets a bit of a glow) you can get next expansion while facerolling.
    No one NEEDs to clear everything. And not everbody CAN clear everything.
    Being right to a degree does not mean you are right. You dont raid 1-3 times a week and clear mythic bosses the first week. - which is the point i am contesting.

  17. #237
    No. I'd say raiding is killing raiding.

    The raid have not been fun lately - the reward for difficulty is skewed. There's just very little point for me to spend a night chewing glass on a boss with inscrutable mechanics to half the raid team when the reward for doing so is sub-par to what I get from M+. The raid isn't fun enough for me to go for fun's sake. If I could still make progress towards gear I need by going raiding with my casual raid guild, that would be something different.

    There needs to be an incentive for running less difficult content.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehalbino View Post
    Tends to be the overwhelming majority of players that strictly perfer raiding tend to be in the suboptimal performer category. Which makes sense as it is easier to blend in and make your mistakes less obvious.

    The issue is at higher difficulties of current content those players are exposed until sufficient nerfs are passed through.

    M+ has this dynamic innately so personal and group responsibility cannot be ignored, and players are forced to elevate if they want to proceed.


    Making raids easier isn't the solution as it just punishes the players that want to improve and overcome difficult tasks with coordination. The issue is people being coddled wanting hand outs because they've never had to mix the git guud kool-aid themselves.
    very true . but what was hiding those bad players in past was that personal responsibility even in hardmodes was much much smaller.


    blizzard should stop designing those stpuid overcomplciated mehcanics and go back to much simpler encounters design like in wolk-mop era.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Well why are they unrewarding?

    MAybe because you get everything from the raid easier from somewhere else?
    Or What you egt doesn't even look special as you get that also from somewhere else...
    they are unrewarding because raid tuning has reached the point when its plain stupid overcomplicated mess not just chalenging.

    i had breaking point this tier - retunred to raiding in CN - did normal then hc then in SoD i went back to mythci raiding but i really didnt enjoy nerzhul or soulrender and painsmith mythic has broken me and reminded me why i stopped raiding back at end of WoD . after few raid nights i was like " no nope nope nope f... this garbage" - and focused on m+ - went from doing m+ on 6 chars back in sanctum to doing it on 13 chars - all of them are now doing +15s - and i have fun playing it even though occasionaly people leave keys and waste my time . but i have fun

    i did not have fun wiping in raids. it felt like time completly wasted.

    i much rather do m+ for those 6-9 hours a week then raid ever again . even if they lower the rewards im still not going back to raiding. maybe im just to old for raids but i cant imagine myself wasting couple of raid nights each week because certain people are incapable of doing certain mechancis and kill is a lottery whether game assigns those mechanics to them or not.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2022-09-12 at 03:03 PM.

  19. #239
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Spoken like a person that didn't play cata at launch. Shit was a horrible grind and led to massive guild burnout.
    I played since TBC, stopped in Shadowlands.
    The tuning is the key though, if you think of TBC instead, it was MAG, Gruul, and a multiple boss raid.
    A suitable mix would be good.

    Bottom line is, running the same raid for weeks on end is just dull.
    From what I remember it was always nice to recharge the batteries in some 1-2 boss raid wether it was in TBC, Wrath or Cata.
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  20. #240
    The arduous and boring nature of raiding killed it. Better content is M+. sadly, recycled far too much.
    Smaller raids with content patches, along with two dungeons for m+, would be preferable.

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