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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Hint hint, I wasn't actually describing FFXIV.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Had 0 death threats, 0 berating, 0 real drama. Worst I've had is late night parties that made me feel like these people really just wanted to get it over with quickly and eschew social interaction. Whenever someone mentions "FFXIV's passive-aggressiveness", more often than not it happens to be the paranoid, feverish dreams of the person making the proclamation. "They aren't calling me a piece of shit scrub casual and kicking me from the party for not knowing the way in a starter dungeon as a new player? That's uncomfortably unfamiliar to me! They must be mocking me behind my back! Just look at that '' they threw at me! THEY'RE SO PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE."
    I am genuinely awful. But no one has ever said shit to me. The only benchmark i really get as to how terrible i am comes in the form of zero commendations (whm). I heard early on that "sure ipps, they wont chat shit in game, but on discord they'll be ripping you to shreds". And to that all i can think is "so, they're not chatting shit TO me..." They can say whatever the hell they want out of my earshot. Most of its probably accurate anyway, but fact is we finished the run. We probably never wiped (thanks always warrior tanks!). And i get to say "Im so sorry you had to deal with me! But thank you so much for the clear! " in a lame attempt to garner pity commends.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I'd rather take the brute honesty of WoW's over FFXIV where nobody points out how to improve for fear of being banned, so no improves and you wipe over and over again until the group disbands.

    I never saw much toxicity in WoW. People cussing? Sure. But no one bending over backwards with an axe to grind for another person.
    Last night, I did Tower of Zot on my Machinist. The healer said he hasn't played in a year and to bear with him. I said "sure np!" The tank died on the first boss and the healer apologized, the tank said nothing. He died again on the last boss at roughly 10% boss HP left. He said "I'm so sorry, I'm very rusty" and the tank said "Pull your head out of your ass, *insert derogatory term for a gay person here*" The healer left, so I tried to kick the tank but the other DPS voted no then said "lol he just tried to kick you". I was kicked in retaliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinchi Migi View Post
    So either you are lying, or you have the worst shitty luck in FFXIV. Cause everything you said about FFXIV is what I have seen and heard in WoW over the 17 years of playing it. Now that I have been playing FFXIV for a year and 4 months, me and my roommate have both only ran into 2 toxic people. Just weird how you have had such negative experiences in the game.
    Or you're lying or just have good luck. Nearly every medium I've discussed FFXIV on, the majority of people have seen what I have or worse. A lot of the people who I've read claim the opposite ended up being new, so they were still in the "new n' shiny" stage, in denial or trying to wind people up. The number of people I've found who said the opposite and were geniune were extremely rare. Which is why I take the comments with a huge grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    You also get it from trying to ask people to DPS as healers, etc.
    That topic is an odd duck too which always devolves into a person or several thinking they need to call others names to get their point across rather than thinking rationally. Some people have comfort zones and I respect those. I'll never tell or ask another player how to do their job unless they're a sprout or they ask. Unsolicited advice in any game often gets met with confrontation, especially because so many don't seem to understand how to present themselves.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    What exactly is wrong with the FF14 playerbase? I play both WoW and FF14 pretty routinely, and I have to say that at least anecdotally I've almost never encountered an issue with other FF14 players, whereas my history with WoW is a lot more checkered in terms of encountering problem players - ranging from "go go go" syndrome to people who pathologically duck responsibility for poor performance. I also appreciate FF14's lack of dependence on meters in end-game content, without making everything an internal competition as opposed to a genuine team effort to overcome obstacles. In FF14 I feel a lot more like a member of a given group than I do in WoW unless I'm running with guildmates where the camaraderie is a given.
    Firstly, let me clarify that the argument isn't so much that something is wrong with the playerbase, but rather that it isn't as good as people hail it to be. All online communities suck, some more/less than others, but they all suck, including FF14.

    Now with that out of the way, for me there are a lot of small pain points that add up to be pretty frustrating. I still play and love the game despite numerous criticisms of it so don't people don't need to bring out the pitchforks.

    1) Lazy players. I may be a 95%+ parser and elite player, but not ONCE have I ever expected anyone else to be. What I do ask is that if you are playing with other players that you try your best. The problem? I know people aren't doing their best. 40% of the players I match with, have GCD utilizations of sub 50%. They're not pushing buttons because they don't care. I can go into a dungeon with appropriate ilvl gear and literally just push true thrust on GCD and use every single oGCD on CD and out-DPS most of the people I get in matched content. That's me literally pressing a singular button over and over and beating players in better gear. This is like ZDPS healers sitting being active in only 17% of the content. They have a GCD utilization of 17%. I take offense to players who don't try their hardest when they're grouped with other players because it's selfish.

    2) Misinformation. I don't know what it is about this community empowering the type of player who genuinely knows nothing about the game to offer job tips, etc. I've had a 9th percentile player IN NORMALS, not savage try to tell me how to play PLD, the job I have 95%+ in a fucking dungeon. I didn't die because I played incorrectly. I died because the healer was watching netflix and not playing. He put the BRD on follow, and pressed a single button in 23s of combat that I kept myself alive in a wall to wall pull. He started playing after that death thankfully, but this player told me I was wrong and used the wrong skills so the enemies died slower than expected. I was top damage as a tank... This is just one anecdote. I have hundreds probably since 2.0 when I started playing.

    3) Lack of accountability - I've seen frighteningly combative arguments about "whose fault" a wipe was or that a dungeon/24 man raid was going too slow, or people lying about their fight progression. People will join groups saying they know the entire fight, but really they just know the SW position, and the one raid pattern, and they need another 15-20 pulls to work it out, because in actually they only saw the mechanic once, and the wiped to it, but because they saw it, they "got past it" and are ready for a clear. People will AFK in large group content any chance they get and very few if ever are held accountable for this.

    WoW has gobs and gobs of problems, but personally I never had issues because I held myself accountable at all times. I could ask for help and would get it. If I needed an answer people didn't give me blatantly false isms that they heard from their housing ward neighbor and told them this once 2 expansions ago. They would point me to resources. Because there's no accountability in FF14, players can be lazy, they can say whatever they want with minimal to no repercussions and they can do as little as they want.

    People can say, oh this never happens to me, but it does, you just don't look, care, or have the tools necessary to easily identify it. Or worse, you know you're the person who does these things, and hated being called out in other games and love the safety and anonymity of FF14; but that still doesn't make the community overall great, it's just great to you. Just like WoW was great to me, but I am able to recognize that it wasn't great to others for different reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Hint hint, I wasn't actually describing FFXIV.
    This had me rolling lol. You knew someone was going to do it. I do want to say in fairness though, it was pretty unanimously disliked among the WoW community too.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2022-09-30 at 01:43 PM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I'd rather take the brute honesty of WoW's over FFXIV where nobody points out how to improve for fear of being banned, so no improves and you wipe over and over again until the group disbands.

    I never saw much toxicity in WoW. People cussing? Sure. But no one bending over backwards with an axe to grind for another person.
    Basically this. I prefer honesty over sugar coating. Besides the weeb element, the community was my biggest turn off. Everyone was sexualising over their character and doing that uwu thing. It’s a no from me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Hint hint, I wasn't actually describing FFXIV.
    My god, you are right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I am genuinely awful. But no one has ever said shit to me. The only benchmark i really get as to how terrible i am comes in the form of zero commendations (whm). I heard early on that "sure ipps, they wont chat shit in game, but on discord they'll be ripping you to shreds". And to that all i can think is "so, they're not chatting shit TO me..." They can say whatever the hell they want out of my earshot. Most of its probably accurate anyway, but fact is we finished the run. We probably never wiped (thanks always warrior tanks!). And i get to say "Im so sorry you had to deal with me! But thank you so much for the clear! " in a lame attempt to garner pity commends.
    Every time I play, I get all the commendations regardless of how good or bad I play, however, I am a tank. I thought only tanks got them? Unless they are toxic/very bad.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Firstly, let me clarify that the argument isn't so much that something is wrong with the playerbase, but rather that it isn't as good as people hail it to be.
    This is very true and a good way to state it. There is a lot of embellishing involved. I really do enjoy FFXIV as a whole but I'm not going to embellish facts that I know are not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    1) Lazy players. I may be a 95%+ parser and elite player, but not ONCE have I ever expected anyone else to be. What I do ask is that if you are playing with other players that you try your best. The problem? I know people aren't doing their best. 40% of the players I match with, have GCD utilizations of sub 50%. They're not pushing buttons because they don't care. I can go into a dungeon with appropriate ilvl gear and literally just push true thrust on GCD and use every single oGCD on CD and out-DPS most of the people I get in matched content. That's me literally pressing a singular button over and over and beating players in better gear. This is like ZDPS healers sitting being active in only 17% of the content. They have a GCD utilization of 17%. I take offense to players who don't try their hardest when they're grouped with other players because it's selfish.
    This one is a slippery slope. In random duty finders, I expect the worst, hope for the best. Plenty of times I wish the group I was with was more competent... whether it's because they are, in fact, lazy or just not that great at video games. Luckily most dungeons are tuned so that people on the opposite side of the spectrum can "succeed". Some people take a lot longer to get into the ebb and flow of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    2) Misinformation. I don't know what it is about this community empowering the type of player who genuinely knows nothing about the game to offer job tips, etc. I've had a 9th percentile player IN NORMALS, not savage try to tell me how to play PLD, the job I have 95%+ in a fucking dungeon. I didn't die because I played incorrectly. I died because the healer was watching netflix and not playing. He put the BRD on follow, and pressed a single button in 23s of combat that I kept myself alive in a wall to wall pull. He started playing after that death thankfully, but this player told me I was wrong and used the wrong skills so the enemies died slower than expected. I was top damage as a tank... This is just one anecdote. I have hundreds probably since 2.0 when I started playing.
    I'm personally the type where I will only take advice from credible sites or content creators. There will always be "those guys" who believe they give good advice when they really don't. They base their knowledge on conjecture and sometimes, don't realize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    People can say, oh this never happens to me, but it does, you just don't look, care, or have the tools necessary to easily identify it. Or worse, you know you're the person who does these things, and hated being called out in other games and love the safety and anonymity of FF14; but that still doesn't make the community overall great, it's just great to you. Just like WoW was great to me, but I am able to recognize that it wasn't great to others for different reasons.
    Many also just place their hands over their ears and pretend it doesn't happen. But yes, there are times when it IS that person who does it and likes to give the illusion that it doesn't happen. The guy who berates people honestly believes in his mind that he's "helping" people. "It helps them grow thicker skin!" I've seen people in WoW who actually believe telling someone to "git gud" is helpful. Anecdote but someone did tell me once "A guy came back and thanked me weeks later after telling him to git gud". I'm like "yeah, nobody thanked you for that..."
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  6. #186
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Firstly, let me clarify that the argument isn't so much that something is wrong with the playerbase, but rather that it isn't as good as people hail it to be. All online communities suck, some more/less than others, but they all suck, including FF14.
    Eh, that's more subjective and relative. I've been part of several online communities that didn't suck at all - and while I've also been part of quite a few that did, I'd say that online communities sucking isn't universal or even overwhelmingly the case. I also think there's a case to be made for saying that online communities are also made of many different sodalities or subcommunities working in tandem, and it's likely impossible to judge the entire community by the actions or words of only a handful of its subcommunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    1) Lazy players. I may be a 95%+ parser and elite player, but not ONCE have I ever expected anyone else to be. What I do ask is that if you are playing with other players that you try your best. The problem? I know people aren't doing their best. 40% of the players I match with, have GCD utilizations of sub 50%. They're not pushing buttons because they don't care. I can go into a dungeon with appropriate ilvl gear and literally just push true thrust on GCD and use every single oGCD on CD and out-DPS most of the people I get in matched content. That's me literally pressing a singular button over and over and beating players in better gear. This is like ZDPS healers sitting being active in only 17% of the content. They have a GCD utilization of 17%. I take offense to players who don't try their hardest when they're grouped with other players because it's selfish.
    Generally speaking, I don't honestly care about other people's performance unless the group is floundering - in which case the group needs to assess baseline performance and dump people who are either malingering or deeply suboptimal. For me, the goal is victory (e.g. beating the bosses) - and while I'm interested in my own performance being optimal, I don't care if a handful of others are suboptimal so long as we're progressing relatively cleanly. I can't speak for your experiences, of course; and maybe your threshold for performance is simply higher due to your own expectations about what is or isn't "good performance." But at the end of the day, that's also somewhat subjective, as my own preference goes to show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    2) Misinformation. I don't know what it is about this community empowering the type of player who genuinely knows nothing about the game to offer job tips, etc. I've had a 9th percentile player IN NORMALS, not savage try to tell me how to play PLD, the job I have 95%+ in a fucking dungeon. I didn't die because I played incorrectly. I died because the healer was watching netflix and not playing. He put the BRD on follow, and pressed a single button in 23s of combat that I kept myself alive in a wall to wall pull. He started playing after that death thankfully, but this player told me I was wrong and used the wrong skills so the enemies died slower than expected. I was top damage as a tank... This is just one anecdote. I have hundreds probably since 2.0 when I started playing.
    I can't really speak to this - your anecdotal experiences are your own, and it's possible you've just had shit luck with randos in your duties. I have run afoul of the occasional dunce in a group, sure; the guy who's very obviously alt-tabbing his way to victory or what have you but I'd say that's the exception as opposed to the rule. I wouldn't really chalk that up to the "community," either; as I've experienced the same general pattern of behavior in every multiplayer type of game I've ever spent time in. Sometimes you just run into people who are pathologically lazy and have no qualms with making it your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    3) Lack of accountability - I've seen frighteningly combative arguments about "whose fault" a wipe was or that a dungeon/24 man raid was going too slow, or people lying about their fight progression. People will join groups saying they know the entire fight, but really they just know the SW position, and the one raid pattern, and they need another 15-20 pulls to work it out, because in actually they only saw the mechanic once, and the wiped to it, but because they saw it, they "got past it" and are ready for a clear. People will AFK in large group content any chance they get and very few if ever are held accountable for this.
    What would say creates or cements "accountability?" I don't think DPS meters ever tell the whole story about performance, myself; and FF14 is in general a lot more about knowing the mechanics of a given encounter than it is a DPS race to win. Someone not knowing the mechanics becomes very obvious in most of FF14's encounters as instant death is often the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so you can't really be more obvious on that score. That being said, there's something to be said for being patient with people who may not know or be overly familiar with an encounter, and that's another area where FF14's general community has struck me as relatively decent. I started playing when Shadowbringers was released and played through the entirety of ARR, HW, and so on to get a feel for the game and my initial job. Even though a lot of the content I was doing was old hat to most of the player base they were still patient with me learning the ropes and sometimes getting gibbed by bosses I was unfamiliar with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    WoW has gobs and gobs of problems, but personally I never had issues because I held myself accountable at all times. I could ask for help and would get it. If I needed an answer people didn't give me blatantly false isms that they heard from their housing ward neighbor and told them this once 2 expansions ago. They would point me to resources. Because there's no accountability in FF14, players can be lazy, they can say whatever they want with minimal to no repercussions and they can do as little as they want.
    I had the exact opposite experience, myself; FF14's community was nothing but welcoming to me and was very proactive in providing useful help, pointers, and basics on how to play. I liken the experience to my earliest days in WoW during Vanilla, where the general player base was a lot more forthcoming in helping other players as opposed to having zero patience with failure of any kind. I had initially expected FF14's community to be more akin to WoW's community today (where the "go go go" and "leave after one wipe" aesthetic reigns supreme), and was pleasantly surprised when that generally wasn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    People can say, oh this never happens to me, but it does, you just don't look, care, or have the tools necessary to easily identify it. Or worse, you know you're the person who does these things, and hated being called out in other games and love the safety and anonymity of FF14; but that still doesn't make the community overall great, it's just great to you. Just like WoW was great to me, but I am able to recognize that it wasn't great to others for different reasons.
    I think that's a wrongheaded way to go about it, personally speaking. I generally expect competence and willingness to improve from the general crowd I play with. I don't expect or demand perfection sight unseen, though; and I'm willing to allow people to have gaffes or errors in judgment as long as I get the impression they're learning/improving as we go. I have the same expectations in both FF14 and WoW, as well as in any other game I play.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Eh, that's more subjective and relative. I've been part of several online communities that didn't suck at all - and while I've also been part of quite a few that did, I'd say that online communities sucking isn't universal or even overwhelmingly the case. I also think there's a case to be made for saying that online communities are also made of many different sodalities or subcommunities working in tandem, and it's likely impossible to judge the entire community by the actions or words of only a handful of its subcommunities.
    Actually, you certainly can do this. A community for a game encompasses all aspects and all areas, not just in-game or just in someone's FC/guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I had the exact opposite experience, myself; FF14's community was nothing but welcoming to me and was very proactive in providing useful help, pointers, and basics on how to play. I liken the experience to my earliest days in WoW during Vanilla, where the general player base was a lot more forthcoming in helping other players as opposed to having zero patience with failure of any kind. I had initially expected FF14's community to be more akin to WoW's community today (where the "go go go" and "leave after one wipe" aesthetic reigns supreme), and was pleasantly surprised when that generally wasn't the case.
    .
    And you may very well have had that experience but my point still stands that most people who claim this are knowingly not being honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think that's a wrongheaded way to go about it, personally speaking. I generally expect competence and willingness to improve from the general crowd I play with. I don't expect or demand perfection sight unseen, though; and I'm willing to allow people to have gaffes or errors in judgment as long as I get the impression they're learning/improving as we go. I have the same expectations in both FF14 and WoW, as well as in any other game I play.
    For guild/FC content, that's fine. You can set expectations and goals for your team but when it comes to randoms, it's not our place to set their goals and expectations for them. I may say "You're not pulling your weight" but what determines that? Who am I to make that assessment? It's up to them to set their own goals so they can strive for whatever level of the game they want. Too often, people feel that if you're not meeting some random guy's personal standards, you're not "pulling your weight" and I've lost count how many times those standards were just ridiculous.

    It's why I'm glad Yoshi takes the stance he does on DPS meters. That's one aspect that FFXIV has over WoW. You don't really have to worry about some "tryhard" berating you because you're not meeting some DPS meter target that he just made up on the spot.

    Some people will reach a comfort zone and that's as far as they'll likely ever go. They plateau when it comes to skill.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    snip
    My thoughts have been answered by others mostly.

    But to reply to your post here if I may, you are quite new to the game and not a person that has seen this game go through since 1.0, you just haven't seen it fully.

    You are still in the new and shiny point, once you dig further to the game and playerbase in many of its aspects, you will understand.

    Another thing thats really important that many people here seem to ignore or in denial of, crappy behaviour is not just something you experience directly to call out FF14, observing between others is also calling out the game.

    I rarely have anything happen to me in either game, less so in WoW actually, its because I do my part and give respect to others at all times, but when I see others treat others, even those I don't know, I can criticise that, many here won't give a flying F about others which is a bigger issue in FF14, its selfish.

    I have seen in WoW where if someone was being crap to another, people will speak up about it and deal with it, FF14, nope.

  9. #189
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoriangun View Post
    But to reply to your post here if I may, you are quite new to the game and not a person that has seen this game go through since 1.0, you just haven't seen it fully.

    You are still in the new and shiny point, once you dig further to the game and playerbase in many of its aspects, you will understand.

    Another thing thats really important that many people here seem to ignore or in denial of, crappy behaviour is not just something you experience directly to call out FF14, observing between others is also calling out the game.

    I rarely have anything happen to me in either game, less so in WoW actually, its because I do my part and give respect to others at all times, but when I see others treat others, even those I don't know, I can criticise that, many here won't give a flying F about others which is a bigger issue in FF14, its selfish.

    I have seen in WoW where if someone was being crap to another, people will speak up about it and deal with it, FF14, nope.
    I've been playing FF14 for more than 3 years - I think the "new and shiny" part of the experience is well behind me. Most of my runs in both WoW and FF14 generally go off without issue, and usually with minimal chatter - which is my preference, to be honest. But I will say I've had a lot more negative experiences in WoW than I have in FF14, and that's even discounting the fact that I've played WoW for far longer. Anecdotal experiences are anecdotal, though; and YMMV.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Eh, that's more subjective and relative. I've been part of several online communities that didn't suck at all - and while I've also been part of quite a few that did, I'd say that online communities sucking isn't universal or even overwhelmingly the case. I also think there's a case to be made for saying that online communities are also made of many different sodalities or subcommunities working in tandem, and it's likely impossible to judge the entire community by the actions or words of only a handful of its subcommunities.
    ***Been a part of several that didn't suck for you***. I'm not entirely confident you can speak for the entire community, but I don't know the context so I can't be sure. But you hit the nail on the head, the way communities are made up of so many different archetypes creates that friction, and that friction is what breeds toxicity and even if you're not a part of it, the community is tainted by it and by proxy they all suck because of this. WoW is toxic, but I never experienced it. FF14 is toxic, but you've never experienced it. Therefore both have to suck logically.

    Generally speaking, I don't honestly care about other people's performance unless the group is floundering - in which case the group needs to assess baseline performance and dump people who are either malingering or deeply suboptimal. For me, the goal is victory (e.g. beating the bosses) - and while I'm interested in my own performance being optimal, I don't care if a handful of others are suboptimal so long as we're progressing relatively cleanly. I can't speak for your experiences, of course; and maybe your threshold for performance is simply higher due to your own expectations about what is or isn't "good performance." But at the end of the day, that's also somewhat subjective, as my own preference goes to show.
    You're conflating performance with effort. I was very clear on that above. We're not asking for equivalent performance, we're asking for equivalent effort. Much like you'd ask for any school project, working relationship, team sport, etc. I don't care how much damage or healing you do as long as you're present and pushing buttons. There is NEVER a reason to have someone doing less damage than I did 3 expansions ago, that's unacceptable because you can literally press a single button repeatedly and do more. It's laziness not incompetence, pure and simple.

    I can't really speak to this - your anecdotal experiences are your own, and it's possible you've just had shit luck with randos in your duties. I have run afoul of the occasional dunce in a group, sure; the guy who's very obviously alt-tabbing his way to victory or what have you but I'd say that's the exception as opposed to the rule. I wouldn't really chalk that up to the "community," either; as I've experienced the same general pattern of behavior in every multiplayer type of game I've ever spent time in. Sometimes you just run into people who are pathologically lazy and have no qualms with making it your problem.
    I would argue that if you experienced the same "bad" thing in every multiplayer game you've spent time in, you're directly supporting my entire argument about them all being bad.

    I always ask people this - Would you clear this incredibly simple content if the other 3/7/23 players played similarly. If you (to be clear not your personally) are a near AFK, going through the motions DPS player in a 4 man dungeon, what would happen if the healer, tank and other DPS did the same thing? What would that run look like? Would you leave? Would you stay and try harder? Would you get frustrated? Would you say anything? If so what?

    Or - am I mistaken and you'd be fine with it and keep goin as is?

    Have you ever joined a 24 man, where the overwhelming majority of the players fit into this category? I have. They're rare. Really rare, but oh they are a spectacle. I wish I still had the ACT screencap of it. We got maybe 20% of the bosses HP down before we wiped. Had over 50% of the DPS doing double digits, people AFK, it was glorious to behold. It wasn't even deaths, just people literally hoping to be carried, but it was the one run, where instead of only having 3-4 a run, they all got queued together.

    What would say creates or cements "accountability?" I don't think DPS meters ever tell the whole story about performance, myself; and FF14 is in general a lot more about knowing the mechanics of a given encounter than it is a DPS race to win.
    Everyone having equal information is what creates/cements accountability. The game in it's default state does not provide this information meaningfully. This whole argument that players use about it's about mechanics not a DPS race has always been asinine. You don't kill bosses by just doing mechanics. You have to do both and they're not mutually exclusive. The best players are great at both and the worst are awful at both and the majority fall somewhere in between.

    That being said, there's something to be said for being patient with people who may not know or be overly familiar with an encounter, and that's another area where FF14's general community has struck me as relatively decent. I started playing when Shadowbringers was released and played through the entirety of ARR, HW, and so on to get a feel for the game and my initial job. Even though a lot of the content I was doing was old hat to most of the player base they were still patient with me learning the ropes and sometimes getting gibbed by bosses I was unfamiliar with.
    For sure you won't find any argument from me here.

    I had the exact opposite experience, myself; FF14's community was nothing but welcoming to me and was very proactive in providing useful help, pointers, and basics on how to play. I liken the experience to my earliest days in WoW during Vanilla, where the general player base was a lot more forthcoming in helping other players as opposed to having zero patience with failure of any kind. I had initially expected FF14's community to be more akin to WoW's community today (where the "go go go" and "leave after one wipe" aesthetic reigns supreme), and was pleasantly surprised when that generally wasn't the case.
    Gogogo is still the standard for any basic content where it's relevant. Most people don't leave after one wipe, unless it's something offensively bad so no argument there either. I question how good the useful help was, but for sure basics etc. That's fine, especially since the game does a questionable job at giving it to you.

  11. #191
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Actually, you certainly can do this. A community for a game encompasses all aspects and all areas, not just in-game or just in someone's FC/guild.
    You *can*, sure; but constructing a public is a thing that is often done, and not all publics (or communities) are made necessarily equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    And you may very well have had that experience but my point still stands that most people who claim this are knowingly not being honest.
    If I had the experience, it is most certainly honest. I see no need to cast aspersions at people or doubt them at their word without due cause. I don't doubt the previous poster had the experiences they had, either; I'm just pointing out that they're manifestly not universal and that I didn't have that experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    For guild/FC content, that's fine. You can set expectations and goals for your team but when it comes to randoms, it's not our place to set their goals and expectations for them. I may say "You're not pulling your weight" but what determines that? Who am I to make that assessment? It's up to them to set their own goals so they can strive for whatever level of the game they want. Too often, people feel that if you're not meeting some random guy's personal standards, you're not "pulling your weight" and I've lost count how many times those standards were just ridiculous.

    It's why I'm glad Yoshi takes the stance he does on DPS meters. That's one aspect that FFXIV has over WoW. You don't really have to worry about some "tryhard" berating you because you're not meeting some DPS meter target that he just made up on the spot.

    Some people will reach a comfort zone and that's as far as they'll likely ever go. They plateau when it comes to skill.
    Some goals are more or less objective - for instance, my stated goal being "completion of the raid/dungeon/etc." I don't honestly care if someone is performing south of optimal so far as we get the job done in a timely fashion, and I'm more than content to wipe a few times as long as I think improvements are being made in terms of overall group performance. Of course, if I feel the group is simply not up to the challenge and isn't going to be able to complete a given objective I'm more likely to just bail with a polite "sorry but I've got to go, good luck" as opposed to harassing or haranguing people.

    I also prefer the laidback environment of FF14 in that meter controversy as well.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You're conflating performance with effort. I was very clear on that above. We're not asking for equivalent performance, we're asking for equivalent effort. Much like you'd ask for any school project, working relationship, team sport, etc. I don't care how much damage or healing you do as long as you're present and pushing buttons. There is NEVER a reason to have someone doing less damage than I did 3 expansions ago, that's unacceptable because you can literally press a single button repeatedly and do more. It's laziness not incompetence, pure and simple.
    I don't know if anyone would be doing less damage than someone did 3 expansions ago unless they were either AFK a lot or one of the genuine "ice mages" lol

    Incompetence comes in many forms. It doesn't mean incapable, it just means they're not at an official standard level.

    There could be a whole bunch of valid reasons why someone isn't competent but not meaning to be lazy.

    1) They're a sprout. Yes, there are things in the game that help teach them but for many, when you log in and all these windows pop up, it's not atypical for someone to just click them all off so they can start playing. There are mentors but many mentors just have the status and don't actually help people.

    2) They're in their comfort zone. Some like things slow and steady. They may not have the spider reflexes that some of us have. It's not necessarily being lazy, some people are just not that good at video games though they like to play it. My wife likes playing Sonic the Hedgehog... she's not very good at it but she has fun playing it.

    3) It's their preferred playstyle. The EULA clearly states that you're required to respect other's unique playstyles. Though I've never really seen one, only heard the rumors but if someone really did want to be an Ice Mage because they RP'd as such, they're within their rights... technically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If I had the experience, it is most certainly honest. I see no need to cast aspersions at people or doubt them at their word without due cause. I don't doubt the previous poster had the experiences they had, either; I'm just pointing out that they're manifestly not universal and that I didn't have that experience.
    Again, you very well may have had the experience you did, I'm not saying you didn't at all. You've not given any clues as of now which you can spot when you read someone stating something dishonest. Maybe it's me personally but part of my job in real life is learning when people are being dishonest. There are several clues they very commonly leave. It may not be a "need" but it does help me personally know if someone is worth taking the time to respond much to. And while I know ignoring people can get you banned, you can at least not invest a lot of time engaging them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Some goals are more or less objective - for instance, my stated goal being "completion of the raid/dungeon/etc." I don't honestly care if someone is performing south of optimal so far as we get the job done in a timely fashion, and I'm more than content to wipe a few times as long as I think improvements are being made in terms of overall group performance. Of course, if I feel the group is simply not up to the challenge and isn't going to be able to complete a given objective I'm more likely to just bail with a polite "sorry but I've got to go, good luck" as opposed to harassing or haranguing people.

    I also prefer the laidback environment of FF14 in that meter controversy as well.
    Absolutely agree here. That's actually my exact method as well.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2022-09-30 at 05:54 PM.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  13. #193
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    ***Been a part of several that didn't suck for you***. I'm not entirely confident you can speak for the entire community, but I don't know the context so I can't be sure. But you hit the nail on the head, the way communities are made up of so many different archetypes creates that friction, and that friction is what breeds toxicity and even if you're not a part of it, the community is tainted by it and by proxy they all suck because of this. WoW is toxic, but I never experienced it. FF14 is toxic, but you've never experienced it. Therefore both have to suck logically.
    I don't and can't speak for the entire community - and more to that point, I'm also saying that the "entire community" doesn't really exist in any cogent manner. What all MMOs, and really all multiplayer games have, is a variety of subcommunities that we tend to project as being "the community" for a given medium. I've encountered many toxic subcommunities in WoW and relatively few in FF14. Does that make both overall communities toxic? Not really. It would correlate to me that WoW has more toxicity per capita than FF14, but that could also just be bad luck on my part, just as could be in FF14 for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You're conflating performance with effort. I was very clear on that above. We're not asking for equivalent performance, we're asking for equivalent effort. Much like you'd ask for any school project, working relationship, team sport, etc. I don't care how much damage or healing you do as long as you're present and pushing buttons. There is NEVER a reason to have someone doing less damage than I did 3 expansions ago, that's unacceptable because you can literally press a single button repeatedly and do more. It's laziness not incompetence, pure and simple.
    I don't really see much difference between performance and effort in this context, really. It's pretty easy in both FF14 and WoW to see when someone isn't really participating, though; in WoW their metrics will be in the shitter, and in FF14 they'll generally be a corpse for 80% of the encounter. My general rubric is that so long as there's no obvious malfeasance, and bosses are dying at a steady clip, then I don't really care if Joe Bob or Rando Steve is a little south of optimal. And again, my threshold for performance or effort may be different than yours, that's just a matter of personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I would argue that if you experienced the same "bad" thing in every multiplayer game you've spent time in, you're directly supporting my entire argument about them all being bad.
    Only in the sense that there will always be stupid or lazy people out in the world. That's not a community issue, though; that's an issue with human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I always ask people this - Would you clear this incredibly simple content if the other 3/7/23 players played similarly. If you (to be clear not your personally) are a near AFK, going through the motions DPS player in a 4 man dungeon, what would happen if the healer, tank and other DPS did the same thing? What would that run look like? Would you leave? Would you stay and try harder? Would you get frustrated? Would you say anything? If so what?

    Or - am I mistaken and you'd be fine with it and keep goin as is?

    Have you ever joined a 24 man, where the overwhelming majority of the players fit into this category? I have. They're rare. Really rare, but oh they are a spectacle. I wish I still had the ACT screencap of it. We got maybe 20% of the bosses HP down before we wiped. Had over 50% of the DPS doing double digits, people AFK, it was glorious to behold. It wasn't even deaths, just people literally hoping to be carried, but it was the one run, where instead of only having 3-4 a run, they all got queued together.
    I play LFR in WoW, scenarios like that happen all the time. To be frank, I honestly don't care a whit to be carrying randos in a situation like that - I find it a bit distasteful, sure; as I wouldn't do it myself but if bosses are dying and there's a minimum of wipes, I consider it the cost of playing in that strata. Now for a guild run that would be entirely unacceptable, and I would bench people that did stuff like that with no argument brooked. My general rule of thumb is after a wipe in LFR to give a brief synopsis of the encounter just in case people have never done it before, assuming I know it myself, and if we incur a few more wipes with no real improvement then I'll bail. Easy come easy go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Everyone having equal information is what creates/cements accountability. The game in it's default state does not provide this information meaningfully. This whole argument that players use about it's about mechanics not a DPS race has always been asinine. You don't kill bosses by just doing mechanics. You have to do both and they're not mutually exclusive. The best players are great at both and the worst are awful at both and the majority fall somewhere in between.
    The only real way to get full and complete information about a given encounter is to do it yourself, learn the ins and outs of it, and commit it to memory while it's relevant. Even watching videos of an encounter doesn't really give you a true first-hand understanding of how it all works mechanically. But still, I've found the distinction quite apt when it comes to FF14 vs. WoW - FF14's encounters are largely not DPS-races, but more about positioning and responding to boss telegraphs, knowing when to account for X, and most often when to get the hell out of the way for Y. WoW has some of that, but generally speaking its more about Tanks knowing when to swap and DPS/Healing bringing its A-game to each encounter. Ideally being good at both is always a net positive, of course; but I'd say for FF14 it's more important to know fights than it is to have mastered your APL/rotation, 90% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Gogogo is still the standard for any basic content where it's relevant. Most people don't leave after one wipe, unless it's something offensively bad so no argument there either. I question how good the useful help was, but for sure basics etc. That's fine, especially since the game does a questionable job at giving it to you.
    YMMV, of course.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2022-09-30 at 06:24 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't know if anyone would be doing less damage than someone did 3 expansions ago unless they were either AFK a lot or one of the genuine "ice mages" lol
    Run ACT. It happens lol and to be clear I'm not talking about healers. It's not usually straight up AFK, but the dude phoning it in, pushing a single button every 6-10s.

    Incompetence comes in many forms. It doesn't mean incapable
    I mean, it literally means incapable lol.

    There could be a whole bunch of valid reasons why someone isn't competent but not meaning to be lazy.

    1) They're a sprout. Yes, there are things in the game that help teach them but for many, when you log in and all these windows pop up, it's not atypical for someone to just click them all off so they can start playing. There are mentors but many mentors just have the status and don't actually help people.
    Sprouts get passes. They're not in the scope of the discussion.

    2) They're in their comfort zone. Some like things slow and steady. They may not have the spider reflexes that some of us have. It's not necessarily being lazy, some people are just not that good at video games though they like to play it. My wife likes playing Sonic the Hedgehog... she's not very good at it but she has fun playing it.
    Sonic is a single player game so she can do whatever she wants with no consequences towards anyone else. I've said countless times I don't actually care how you perform, only that you show up and try. You can die, you can drop your buffs and mess up your rotation I don't care. You can actually do ALL of those things in tandem and still out DPS some of the players who queue up for matched content because you're actually pushing buttons and presently engaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't and can't speak for the entire community - and more to that point, I'm also saying that the "entire community" doesn't really exist in any cogent manner. What all MMOs, and really all multiplayer games have, is a variety of subcommunities that we tend to project as being "the community" for a given medium. I've encountered many toxic subcommunities in WoW and relatively few in FF14. Does that make both overall communities toxic? Not really. It would correlate to me that WoW has more toxicity per capita than FF14, but that could also just be bad luck on my part, just as could be in FF14 for you.
    Regardless of you disagreeing, we're saying the same thing lol.

    I don't really see much difference between performance and effort in this context, really. It's pretty easy in both FF14 and WoW to see when someone isn't really participating, though; in WoW their metrics will be in the shitter, and in FF14 they'll generally be a corpse for 80% of the encounter. My general rubric is that so long as there's no obvious malfeasance, and bosses are dying at a steady clip, then I don't really care if Joe Bob or Rando Steve is a little south of optimal. And again, my threshold for performance or effort may be different than yours, that's just a matter of personal preference.
    You fail to realize that there are people with metrics in the shitter who are not corpses. That's the piece you're missing. We've pretty much established your standards on effort are similar even if you won't admit it based on your comment below about LFR.

    Only in the sense that there will always be stupid or lazy people out in the world. That's not a community issue, though; that's an issue with human nature.
    Which is my point. Communities suck because people suck.

    The only real way to get full and complete information about a given encounter is to do it yourself, learn the ins and outs of it, and commit it to memory while it's relevant. Even watching videos of an encounter doesn't really give you a true first-hand understanding of how it all works mechanically. But still, I've found the distinction quite apt when it comes to FF14 vs. WoW - FF14's encounters are largely not DPS-races, but more about positioning and responding to boss telegraphs, knowing when to account for X, and most often when to get the hell out of the way for Y. WoW has some of that, but generally speaking its more about Tanks knowing when to swap and DPS/Healing bringing its A-game to each encounter. Ideally being good at both is always a net positive, of course; but I'd say for FF14 it's more important to know fights than it is to have mastered your APL/rotation, 90% of the time.
    I wasn't speaking about information about the encounter, but rather performance information because the discussion point was about accountability so I'm not sure where you were going with that. Again it's not about the absolute number of that performance, but it's indication of effort being applied based on the scenario.

    To your point about "WoW being more about tanks knowing when to swap and DPS/Healing bringing their A game" I'm not sure if you've ever played savage, but that's literally what it's about too lol. Both games have mechanics and both games have throughput checks and they're equally important. If you're talking low impact matched content - then it's irrelevant in both games, thus kind of irrelevant in general.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2022-09-30 at 08:15 PM.

  15. #195
    Incompetent and incapable are different and often mistaken for one another. Incapable means cannot . Am untrained person is incompetent but could be very capable.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  16. #196
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Regardless of you disagreeing, we're saying the same thing lol.
    We may be saying the same thing, but we've come to obviously different conclusions about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You fail to realize that there are people with metrics in the shitter who are not corpses. That's the piece you're missing. We've pretty much established your standards on effort are similar even if you won't admit it based on your comment below about LFR.
    I don't fail to realize it, I just generally don't care about it. If the boss dies with a relative lack of fuss, I don't care if the randos in the group are suboptimal. Just like I don't require a $1,000 super-aerodynamic hammer made of titanium and electrum to hammer in a nail, more or less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I wasn't speaking about information about the encounter, but rather performance information because the discussion point was about accountability so I'm not sure where you were going with that. Again it's not about the absolute number of that performance, but it's indication of effort being applied based on the scenario.
    You may have a different understanding of "accountability," but I don't consider anyone else in the group accountable to me in any real sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To your point about "WoW being more about tanks knowing when to swap and DPS/Healing bringing their A game" I'm not sure if you've ever played savage, but that's literally what it's about too lol. Both games have mechanics and both games have throughput checks and they're equally important. If you're talking low impact matched content - then it's irrelevant in both games, thus kind of irrelevant in general.
    I'm not saying the two are exclusive to either game, but that WoW tends to lean more heavily in one direction and FF14 in the other. I've got experience with the competitive endgame in both games. Savage/Mythic content obviously caters to the best players by virtue of being the rarefied tier in each game, but the same paradigm is generally in play regardless of your tier of play.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Which is my point. Communities suck because people suck.
    I mean, people are going to suck no matter WHAT you do. But you can't let that poison you to the world. You've gotta just deal with the shit and move on the best you can. Some people will grow, learn, and change. Some people will get so twisted in on themselves and the world that they're willing to accept outright lies as the truth. But to let yourself be drawn down into the same pit doesn't help anyone, much less yourself.

    There are bad seeds in any community, but the overall whole can (And usually is) better based on how it's formed. Warcraft, League of Legends, and a lot of Shooters are designed to be more competitive, for people to win over each other and because of that, their communities are seen as much worse. It's all about 'you didn't pull your weight, you screwed up, you killed me', ect. The sense of helping each other isn't the first thing on their mind, because they want to be better than someone else and those games encourage that.

    FF14, on the other hand, encourages helping others, reaching out, and generally not being a dick, to the point where they have taken people aside for being too much of one and talked to them about it, with repeat offenders finally being let go if it's been decided they can't or won't change. Sometimes, for a community to be seen as good... you've gotta make sure that they're being taught that being good is the right thing.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That topic is an odd duck too which always devolves into a person or several thinking they need to call others names to get their point across rather than thinking rationally. Some people have comfort zones and I respect those. I'll never tell or ask another player how to do their job unless they're a sprout or they ask. Unsolicited advice in any game often gets met with confrontation, especially because so many don't seem to understand how to present themselves.
    I'm never rude about it, I just notice if the healer is not using damage spells at all/not consistently (I don't even have ACT, you can just watch their animations or lack thereof) for an extended period of time I'll just auto-translate "(healer) (please) (glare/broil/holy/art of war)" or whatever. Vast majority of time, no response of any sort because people are lazy assholes. Probably 2/3 of the remainder is some form or other of "stay in your lane tank", and the other 1/3 is affirmative or they otherwise begin doing as asked. I'll also ask for Cure 2, Afflatus, Lustrate, etc if I notice them not being used and people dying because they're trying to heal with Physick spam or something.

    DPS players usually don't need minding, other than I'll ask them to use an AOE skill if I notice they aren't AOEing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    1) Lazy players. I may be a 95%+ parser and elite player, but not ONCE have I ever expected anyone else to be. What I do ask is that if you are playing with other players that you try your best. The problem? I know people aren't doing their best. 40% of the players I match with, have GCD utilizations of sub 50%. They're not pushing buttons because they don't care. I can go into a dungeon with appropriate ilvl gear and literally just push true thrust on GCD and use every single oGCD on CD and out-DPS most of the people I get in matched content. That's me literally pressing a singular button over and over and beating players in better gear. This is like ZDPS healers sitting being active in only 17% of the content. They have a GCD utilization of 17%. I take offense to players who don't try their hardest when they're grouped with other players because it's selfish.
    By far the biggest issue in XIV, and it's an issue throughout gaming as a whole. Simply put, if you voluntarily and intentionally choose to join a team activity, the team's combined needs and desires supersede your own personal wants and desires for the duration of the activity. This is "not being a piece of shit" 101. It's not specific to any game or activity.

    I don't think people need to be putting their best effort in, but they need to be putting *some* amount of effort in. Watch Netflix, I don't care, but make sure you're tapping 1-R-1-R-1-R or whatever your first combo step plus most common oGCD is or something. And maybe don't watch something requiring close attention if you're healing or tanking, since even in normals (assuming full pulls), you *do* have some small number of time/condition-sensitive tasks. As you've said, even freestyle SAM or Ice Mage is still vastly more DPS than people literally not hitting buttons or auto-following other players because they're lazy assholes.

    If you have to step away from the computer, that's fine - just tell someone and setup auto-follow. Dungeons are so easy that you don't even need both tank and healer as long as you're doing single pulls.

    2) Misinformation. I don't know what it is about this community empowering the type of player who genuinely knows nothing about the game to offer job tips, etc. I've had a 9th percentile player IN NORMALS, not savage try to tell me how to play PLD, the job I have 95%+ in a fucking dungeon. I didn't die because I played incorrectly. I died because the healer was watching netflix and not playing. He put the BRD on follow, and pressed a single button in 23s of combat that I kept myself alive in a wall to wall pull. He started playing after that death thankfully, but this player told me I was wrong and used the wrong skills so the enemies died slower than expected. I was top damage as a tank... This is just one anecdote. I have hundreds probably since 2.0 when I started playing.
    100% Square-Enix's fault and the one topic I give them unending amounts of shit over. It is the responsibility of the developer to teach players how to play their game, and to provide necessary information or tools in that game so that players can learn. "Ask other players/go to third party websites and tools" is NOT an acceptable answer for a fully-released AAA game.

    The lazy fucks have even said they're not going to even consider just updating Hall of the Novice - LITERALLY THE ONLY TUTORIAL AND TEACHING SYSTEM IN THE GAME - because... I don't know, too much effort?

    Yoshida and his entire fucking business unit can fuck right the hell off. They need to swallow their ego and *do their fucking jobs* and put meaningful tutorials, skill checks, and other tools into the game so that players are not wholly reliant on hoping that The Balance or now Icy Veins continues to produce information for them. I credit this staggering lack of developer responsibility in helping me see Square-Enix as a business and Yoshida as a businessman, rather than "it's Jesus but in gaming form!" like some people seem to go for. Yoshida is cool as hell and is better than what virtually all other AAA outfits I've ever seen have. But it's still a business, he's still a businessman, and the decision to not invest resources into tutorials and tools is absolutely because "casual players won't care so it would be wasted effort."

    3) Lack of accountability - I've seen frighteningly combative arguments about "whose fault" a wipe was or that a dungeon/24 man raid was going too slow, or people lying about their fight progression. People will join groups saying they know the entire fight, but really they just know the SW position, and the one raid pattern, and they need another 15-20 pulls to work it out, because in actually they only saw the mechanic once, and the wiped to it, but because they saw it, they "got past it" and are ready for a clear. People will AFK in large group content any chance they get and very few if ever are held accountable for this.
    This one's really fucking easy. DPS meters are a gray area (don't ask, don't tell), as are "what caused this death?" plugins. Someone can lie to your face about their DPS or why they died, and you can't easily contradict them because doing so is explicitly violating TOS and the GMs take it seriously.

    In WoW, though? You can just link Details! or any number of countless other mods and show them empirical proof that they're the problem. Now, they'll probably call you a slur and reject the proof anyway, because personal accountability and responsibility is not something commonly associated with the manchildren that infest gaming spaces anymore, but at least you can post the data.

    WoW has gobs and gobs of problems, but personally I never had issues because I held myself accountable at all times. I could ask for help and would get it. If I needed an answer people didn't give me blatantly false isms that they heard from their housing ward neighbor and told them this once 2 expansions ago. They would point me to resources. Because there's no accountability in FF14, players can be lazy, they can say whatever they want with minimal to no repercussions and they can do as little as they want.
    It goes both ways, though. In WoW, if I notice someone is just killing it on DPS, I can publicly congratulate them on it and post the data afterwards. They get proof and positive reinforcement. Yes, that data and tools can be used to harass people, but it can also be used to praise them. It's not one or the other, it's both. If you see people using it to harass others... well, start using it to praise others. Normalize praising people for good performance, rather than criticizing poor performance. Be the change you want to see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    I mean, people are going to suck no matter WHAT you do. But you can't let that poison you to the world. You've gotta just deal with the shit and move on the best you can. Some people will grow, learn, and change. Some people will get so twisted in on themselves and the world that they're willing to accept outright lies as the truth. But to let yourself be drawn down into the same pit doesn't help anyone, much less yourself.

    There are bad seeds in any community, but the overall whole can (And usually is) better based on how it's formed. Warcraft, League of Legends, and a lot of Shooters are designed to be more competitive, for people to win over each other and because of that, their communities are seen as much worse. It's all about 'you didn't pull your weight, you screwed up, you killed me', ect. The sense of helping each other isn't the first thing on their mind, because they want to be better than someone else and those games encourage that.

    FF14, on the other hand, encourages helping others, reaching out, and generally not being a dick, to the point where they have taken people aside for being too much of one and talked to them about it, with repeat offenders finally being let go if it's been decided they can't or won't change. Sometimes, for a community to be seen as good... you've gotta make sure that they're being taught that being good is the right thing.
    If you need secret police GMs listening to snitching and bundling people off to jail to talk to people like they're 5 years old (or in my one experience, never actually show up unless I was AFK, then booting me from the server so I could log back in when I got home, wait for a while, be AFK when they finally deigned to show up, get kicked again, and repeat the process for 24 hours - SE's method of handling this sort of thing is... pretty bad), then your community isn't a good community... it's just an aggressively-policed one.

    A good community would not need GMs like XIV does, because the overwhelming majority of people would be nice and respectful of others. But XIV has some of the busiest and most active GMs of any MMO I've ever heard of. Some of that might be because Square-Enix seems to be hesitant to just copy from Valve's book and implement an actually useful automated system to handle the rank and file complaints.

  19. #199
    Some really stellar takes in this thread.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Some really stellar takes in this thread.
    I always appreciate various views without devolving into petty insults for having a different view and it’s a nice change of pace. Beats the subreddit where you’re called every name under the sun if you don’t have a popular view.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

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